ohmelads

All valid questions for a fan of this club to be asking. It's all well and good to assume we're taking Duscher on trial because Sam reckons he's found a bargain but it's just as likely to be one of the reasons above. I hope the fact we're taking a 28 year old trialist is a coincidence, I really do.

Well that's quite a big IF. I don't know what sort of wage bill we're working with, but to end up with Butt, Edmilson and Duscher we'd be a bit overstocked. I'm also not a big fan of Edmilson and I think his wages/sign on fee will effectively make him an expensive signing. I don't know his wages but it's pretty obvious. Rather than end up with 3 DM's considered past their best by their clubs' fans, all with injury problems and all on big wages, I think it'd be a lot simpler to go out and spend £5m or £10m on someone who walk into the team and have Butt as backup. I'm not an expert on the global transfer market, but I'd think if the money is there we could go and prise a good DM from a club similar or smaller than ourselves.

Why is it that if someone expresses the smallest doubt in a signing, people get so defensive. "getting hysterical", "whinging" or "calling him ****" is something totally different to reasoned debate on why this guy might not be the best move for us. Not everything Sam touches turns to gold, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest he's making a mistake or isn't making as good a move as he could without the lynch mob calling you a Big Sam traitor.

Me too, if he's decent then it's a great move by Allardyce. However Viduka and Geremi were proven Premiership players, people who we knew would walk straight into our first team. Duscher is a different kettle of fish, so obviously more people are asking questions this time around. This is a low-risk move, but then any cheap/bosman player is. We could get anyone on a free and I'll tell you it's a low-risk move, but it doesn't really mean anything. We're only going to sign one DM this summer, so obviously we're all hoping it's someone who improves the squad and hopefully the first team as well.

Sums up my thoughts. Not dead against it, but feel we should be going for the best we can get. One option is to sign someone better than Butt and leave him as experienced backup like we've done with Solano. That would be a step forward for the team and the squad. It's all well and good building a massive squad but you can only put your best 11 out on the pitch and they're the ones who will or won't get you the points. We need to improve the first team as well as the squad and if the money is there I'd rather splash out and get a quality DM with Butt as backup.

Just because we've mis-spent money in the past it's no reason to be chasing bosmans. That seems like very linear logic. What must change isn't the amount of money being spent, but the scouting and coaching. We could and should have spent most of that money a lot better, and hopefully we'll do that in years to come.

Well I'm not a scout with access to games all over Europe and what-not, nor do I know who may or may not be available. I gave Lassana Diarra as an example earlier, someone who I reckon has the ability to become better than Butt and can also compete for other positions such as RB, someone who seems on the up rather than someone who seems on the down, someone who will grow with our team. We already have experienced cover in Geremi. Experience isn't the be all and end all, sometimes it can be very good to have youth in your side. I'm also not convinced Butt is that good. Once highly rated player, now he's steady, decent perhaps, and a good squad player. Duscher seems very much in the same boat.

I agree with what you're saying, and a few rotation signings to see us through our progression might be sensible. After all, Duscher may be for us what Zenden was for Liverpool, someone who comes in and 'does a job' when injuries hit, and when on form can push people for their places. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic about this, but I'd like us to have a balanced squad of experience and youth, with players motivated to break into the first team who have their best years ahead of them. Duscher would be a very sensible option if we're skint, but if we're not then we don't have to sign him just because he's free, there are a lot of options out there.

As I said on the last page, I don't think it's that simple. If we sign Duscher it means we're not getting someone else. And if it turns out Duscher isn't good enough, we send him back to Deportivo, probably for two or more years on decent wages (plus signing on fee), and if an opportunity comes up to sign a better player we could have a problem peddling him. In short, we don't want to end up with dead wood. I don't know how Duscher will turn out, but these are my reservations. We have experience in Butt, and experienced cover available in Geremi. This is one position where I think a youthful understudy may be a better answer. Just my thoughts, I'm not against this signing but I feel we're possibly missing out on a lot of better options. FYP. Do people not understand the concept of trials? He's not at Deportivo, he's a free agent. When I said "if he isn't good enough" I was refering to his Premiership performances, not a one week trial, I thought that was pretty obvious.

As I said on the last page, I don't think it's that simple. If we sign Duscher it means we're not getting someone else. And if it turns out Duscher isn't good enough we're stuck with him, probably for two or more years on decent wages (plus signing on fee), and if an opportunity comes up to sign a better player we could have a problem peddling him. In short, we don't want to end up with dead wood. I don't know how Duscher will turn out, but these are my reservations. We have experience in Butt, and experienced cover available in Geremi. This is one position where I think a youthful understudy may be a better answer. Just my thoughts, I'm not against this signing but I feel we'd be better off forking out a bit of money on an up and coming player with his best years just ahead of him like Diarra from Chelsea.

He doesn't have a club now. He's available on a bosman.

There's a few people feel they missed an opportunity to cash in on him when Man Utd and us were interested a few years back. Some genuinely don't seem to like the guy, others feel he could have become a very good player but lacks the motivation, some wish him all the best because he spent years as a rotation player and never made a fuss. It's clear to see this guy has ability, it's just quite a while since he's shown it. It would be a typical Big Sam signing, and wouldn't be the worst move in the world, but I feel we could do better.

I'd be happier to have him here than nobody at all. It'd be good to have a squad covered in all areas for once. However, it's not that simple. Once you buy a player you're stuck with him, for however many years paying his wages and having him around the place. If he isn't good enough, is a cock, or both then it becomes a problem. Just having him around restricts your ability to sign other players who become available, because you have a wage structure which is there for a reason. You try to sell him but you can't because other clubs don't want your problem, and those who do won't meet his wages. So while Duscher is better than nothing, you have to consider the opportunity cost. If we sign Duscher we're missing out on other players, not only this summer but perhaps in transfer windows to come. Therefore, even though he's on a free, it's never simply a case of 'better than nothing'. Now I don't know enough about Duscher to pass judgement, but from reading the comments of those who do - the Depor fans - and looking at his age, his recent poor form over the last year or two and his probable wages, I'd rather we went for someone else.

Don't rate him. Lightweight and too dodgy defensively. He's got pace and can showboat with one or two tricks but he's not an effective footballer at this level.

He knows he won't get a better club than us this summer. This is good news in the short term, but unless we're around the CL places we'll have all this again in January and in May. If we want to keep him it's up to us, but I'm not convinced the quality of our signings so far will be enough to keep someone of his quality. I don't think we've shown much ambition in the transfer market so far, no doubt someone will trot out the tired 'trophy signings/patience' line. Hopefully we'll make some telling moves in the coming weeks. Of course, while we have to prove something to Owen, he also has to prove something to us after 18 months on the sidelines.

*sigh*

Had a quick read on the Deportivo forums and it seems noone really rates him over there any more, apparently he was pants last season. He's become surplus to requirements and noone's really bothered he's going, even on a free. Quite a few are saying he had one good season and it went to his head when Man Utd etc showed an interest. Now it seems noone is showing much interest in him on a free contract and he's left discussing terms with Racing Santander, though there's talk of Benfica coming in and now us. A lot of them seem to think it's funny he's been reduced to talking to Santander, that he's got his comeuppance and that he won't find a bigger club. Some of it may be sour grapes that he didn't renew his contract with them, but they genuinely don't seem bothered that they're losing him for nowt. Not liking the sound of it to be honest, surely we can do better. Perhaps Allardyce feels he can rekindle his form from a few years ago, but given Butt's age and the fact we have experienced cover available if need be in the form of Geremi, I'd like to see us sign a younger player for this position. Someone young and hungry to succeed who will challenge Butt for his place. It seems Sam is going for experience; Viduka 31, Barton 25, Rozehnal 26, Geremi 28 and the likes of Beye, Duscher, Heinze, Deco, Edmilson, and Gudjohnsen have all been linked, but very little youth. I wouldn't mind us tempting Chelsea with a serious offer for young Lassana Diarra. Admittedly I've only seen him a few times but at both DM and RB he's really looked the part and would provide real competition for several positions. Experience is all well and good but Duscher on a free sounds like snapping him up for the sake of it to fill a position. If the money is there, an exciting young player like Diarra (just an example) would be more my cup of tea.

Spanish papers saying Racing Santander are in advanced talks with him. It was only two years ago that Man Utd were looking at him. Has his stock fallen that much that he's discussing terms with Racing Santander?

We've still got quite a few consistently injury prone players on our books. Viduka, Owen, Dyer, Duff, Emre, Carr, Babayaro. Butt until last season was never too reliable either.

Our whole team didn't score a goal at St James since February. He ended the season badly, that's very true, but Berbatov, who is so highly rated by fans across the country, only scored once against a top half team, and much like Oba he had his dry and purple patches. I don't think it's sufficient reason to peddle a young foreigner after his first season in England. You could just as easily say Gudjohnsen has scored 7 goals in the past two years - the same as Owen - and say he too has been "found out". Martins for me is a bit of an enigma. I've rarely ever seen a player of such contrasts. At his worst he gets even the basics all wrong, at his best he's pretty much unstoppable. If he were a few years older I'd say "sell" but I'm willing to take the chance his value dropping a few million to see how he turns out.

I would absolutely love to have Gudjohnsen here, I rate him very highly, in fact as tmonkey says I probably overrate him because we've been so starved of players with the kind of deft touch and link up play he has. Problem is I wouldn't know what to do with him, as in a 4-4-2 I like the little and large/quick and strong combo of Viduka and Owen and he'd be the third choice who doesn't have the strength to do Viduka's job nor the pace and finishing to do Owen's job. He's always been a bit neither here nor there which is why, although not many seem to agree with me, the AM position with two other CMs behind gives a good compromise. If, as you say, we replace Martins with Guddy and bring in a quick forward, I think we'll be overstocked with 5 strikers, 3 of them big names. Even accounting for his versatility. For a club of our size to be that overstocked on strikers probably isn't healthy, and I'm not just talking in terms of finances but in terms of maintaining a unified team. Bringing in two players to replace Oba would surely be indicative of how much we'd lost.

Wasn't meaning to come across all condescending, although now that I look at it, it does appear that way. Nevertheless, it wasn't a rhetorical/sarcastic question. I think the issue of where to play Gudjohnsen is a particularly relevant one, and even more so if we're playing Viduka alone up front. If you're going to compare Martins to Owen, then you must compare Gudjohnsen the same way, seeing as we're discussing him as a possible replacement for Oba. To answer your question, even if we were to play 4-4-2, we'll still need Martins, absolutely. Otherwise Owen will become our only option for pace up front and I don't want us to put all our eggs into that basket again, we must have a contingency. The reason I asked is because I suspect you would rather not have Gudjohnsen if we're lining up to play 4-5-1. Other than midfield, noone has yet suggested where on earth Gudjohnsen could play in the formation Allardyce has used his entire career. I do find that a bit curious. Are you so certain we'll be playing 4-4-2 next season that this question isn't worth answering? Gudjohnsen can't give us what Martins gives us. Sure enough he'll bring other qualities to the table, but in my view we're in much greater need of the pace, movement and goalscoring abilities of Martins than we are of the technique and creativity of Gudjohnsen. Espescially when two of our strikers are heavy on their feet and the other has barely played a game in two years. I may be wrong about that, but if we lose Martins for Guddy and Owen gets injured, we'll be watching a pretty static forward line. Given Owen's propensity to get crocked, I'm not up for that gamble. We have a nice balance of strikers as things stand. Gudjohnsen's technique and creativity would be a welcome addition, but not at the expense of Martins.

Gudjohnsen's best ever season in terms of 'goalscoring' was 6 years ago when he scored 14 league goals. Since then his scoring record has consistently been very poor, averaging something like 7 goals a season. I'm not big on statistics but come on, he's 28 now, it's clear he will never be a consistent goalscorer. For argument's sake, let's assume 4-3-3/4-5-1 is going to be the standard formation we employ next season: where would you put Gudjohnsen? Do you think he has the legs of Martins and Owen to play out side? Or the build of Viduka to play the target man? As someone already said, there's a reason Mourinho put him in midfield, he's simply not made as a striker for that formation. I want us to sign Gudjohnsen, but for the midfield. He has no place skinning defenders on the wing or holding the ball up as the lone striker because he can't do it, and anyone who thinks he can is mistaken I'm afraid.

Gudjohnsen has spent more than 90% of his career playing up front as the second striker, just like Martins at Inter. They do play in the same position but they're totally different players and Martins was always a better goalscorer even at a young age. Gudjohnsen has never been a remotely prolific striker and never will be. Mourinho's decision to play Gudjohnsen in AM may have had something to do with trying to accommodate him, but his performances there were brilliant and at the time I remember we were all calling Mourinho a tactical genius. Given his poor scoring record but excellent touch and vision it makes sense to give him a deeper role, espescially if you're playing a 4-5-1. He doesn't have the legs or ability to beat a man that you need out wide, nor the build to play the Drogba position. If we bought him for a 4-5-1 he'd have to play in midfield for us IMO. And I saw Gudjohnsen miss some howlers for Barcelona last season, where he always played up front. He's not as composed as you think, which reflects in his poor scoring record.

Gudjohnsen can't do what Martins can do. They're two totally different players while one is 28 years old and the other is 22. He'll never get as many goals as Martins, but he'll keep possession and create a lot more openings, while chipping in with a few goals himself. Here's his scoring record for the past 4 seasons: Gudjohnsen Age: 28 06-07 Barcelona 5 Goals, 25 Games 05-06 Chelsea 2 Goals, 26 Games 04-05 Chelsea 12 Goals, 38 Games 03-04 Chelsea 6 Goals, 26 Games Martins Age: 22 06-07 Newcastle United 11 Goals, 33 Games 05-06 Inter Milan 9 Goals, 28 Games 04-05 Inter Milan 11 Goals, 31 Games 03-04 Inter Milan 7 Goals, 25 Games Consider that Martins is still very young, and that many of those are sub appearances for Inter, and you can see that he'll always be a better goalscorer than Gudjohnsen. But Gudjohnsen will always be a better creator. From what I've seen of Gudjohnsen I honestly believe his most effective position in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 is attacking midfield. Because of Guddy's strengths, you want him in a position where he'll see a lot of the ball with players in front of him. I'd love to see Gudjohnsen and Martins in the same team, with Martins wide left, Owen wide right, Viduka up front and Gudjohnsen the AM whose job it is to pick the ball up between midfield and defence and make something happen.