Cronky

Ferguson is a proven winner. Keegan is not.

Of course I am, our club has been littered with more Souness' than Keegans, he was our Fergie. Looking back, what he achieved was phenomenal Bob. I don't think any one else could have done what he did for us at the time and it is no coincidence that after he left, we struggled for years to move on and I fear history will repeat itself once more. Our Fergie? So far the career major trophy score stands at about 40 - 0 in Fergie's favour.

I think we'll soon see just what an impact KK had on the team and what his loss means to the team, starting at Hull where I predict a victory for the visitors as I can't see the players being in the right frame of mind nor too happy at having their hopes and ambitions for the campaign dashed over internal feuding, much less paying any respect to this Richard Money bloke who will be managing them on the day. I think we'll see less and less of Owen who will be "injured" more, N'Zogbia will go back into sulking, Shay will be wishing for January to get out of here where as the foreign lads will be wondering what the hell is going on. What I was driving at was that most people seemed pretty satisfied with the players that had been brought in, and with the early performances. Now that there's been this row with Keegan, a lot of people are saying that the system is useless. A lot of that positivity stemmed from KK himself or fans' faith in him, my own included. We would play better and win more games even with our limitations and a team lacking balance, depth and quality in some areas. That's what KK gives you, something extra. Look at what he done for Owen, Martins' game has improved, the spirit in the camp was sky high, the new lads have all settled in well, that's thanks to KK that. Take that away and the reality hits you that we have a very thin squad with a team that lacks balance and quality in some areas. The club have known for 2 windows now what is needed, I suspect KK did too hence comments about left-backs, but the system has failed to deliver the nessacary numbers and quality that a club with our aspirations (Ashley wants our season to reflect how much we pay out in wages, his words, not mine) and expectations to have only spent a net of 1m or whatever it is is nothing short of incredible. People forget how poor we were last season, how close we were to the relegation spots. As far as I can tell we have only strengthened that team with 2 new faces but we've lost someone who was worth 4 new faces and then sum, KK. The thing that's changed from this season to last isn't the manager, it's the players. And it's not Keegan that's delivered the players.

You do seem to be putting Keegan on a pedastal here, Chris, but just look at his record. He's never won a major trophy. He's had a history of walking out of jobs. What success he's had has been when he's been able to outspend the opposition. His record in this second spell here hasn't been anything fantastic. I think his confidence and enthusiasm for the game are quite brittle. You don't exile yourself and avoid watching a single game for three years if your motivation is as steady as it should be.

I think we'll soon see just what an impact KK had on the team and what his loss means to the team, starting at Hull where I predict a victory for the visitors as I can't see the players being in the right frame of mind nor too happy at having their hopes and ambitions for the campaign dashed over internal feuding, much less paying any respect to this Richard Money bloke who will be managing them on the day. I think we'll see less and less of Owen who will be "injured" more, N'Zogbia will go back into sulking, Shay will be wishing for January to get out of here where as the foreign lads will be wondering what the hell is going on. What I was driving at was that most people seemed pretty satisfied with the players that had been brought in, and with the early performances. Now that there's been this row with Keegan, a lot of people are saying that the system is useless.

Nearly all of those are opinions, not facts. It's my opinion that the team that started this season is much better than the team which finished last, and until a few days ago most people would have agreed with me. Keegan storming out doesn't change that.

As a general rule, I'd say that 95% of conspiracy theories are wrong, and 95% of cock-up theories are right. This has all the hallmarks of a cock-up.

Would it mean that more money was available to allow us to compete with other clubs? - No Would it mean that more sensible decisions were made, on footballing and other matters? - No

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere. fucking hell can anyone tell me where i read something that clearly defines wise's role in events over the last week? and in the transfer team he works under? only thing i've seen so far is from wise when he took the job saying his remit was to boost the youth teams... i just want to know how wise has become the target? have either the lma or KK come out and said it was him? or is it only the papers we're now allowed to believe? That's a good point. Wise was part of a team, and it may be that he's being singled out as a convenient target. It sounds like the system is you have a coaching team, headed by Keegan, and a recruitment team, headed by Wise. Inevitably there's a cross-over between the roles, because the Manager has to be happy with the players that are being brought in. So both parties have to give their consent before a player is brought in. Neither is going to get their own way all the time. Keegan is claiming that a player or players were brought in without his consent. My problem is that I can't think of who that might be, because he seemed happy with the ones who were recruited before deadline day, he actually met Xisco before he signed and welcomed him to the club, and Fernandez was a loan signing who scarcely seems a resigning issue. If by 'I didn't want these players', he's actually meaning, 'I'd have preferred other players', he's making a rather misleading statement.

Not many fans are complaining about the quality of the players that Wise has brought in. And although you comment on his inexperience, he's actually part of quite an experienced recruitment team, with Jiminiez and Vitere.

At the end of the day, I do think the Board have made a mistake here. Although I'm pretty sure they've been hard done by here, they're not going to win a PR battle with Keegan. He's too well established.

Bob, you seriously don't believe that do you, honestly? If anything I think KK wanted the best of both worlds, he was very complimentary about Jonas et al and seemed excited about the kind of talent the new set-up could find him, while I'm sure he'd have liked some of his own targets brought in but I don't for one minute think that included Henry, Lampard and Ronaldinho, players he actually laughed at at the end of last season as dreamworld signings and that fans should not expect such players. Again it points to the sale of Milner for me. I was exaggerating to make a point. To put it better - Keegan wanted ready made players with an established reputation. The Board were looking at players that could be developed.

Beckham and Owen would be top of my list. Good players, but nowhere near as good as they've ever been cracked up to be.

Exactly who was bought in or sold without Keegan's consent? Anyone know?

To sum up - the Board wanted to run the club like Arsenal, with Spain as the source of young talent instead of France. Keegan wanted to manage the club like Chelsea.

Yet KK has never been about big money, KK likes to take a gamble and buy unknowns just as much as he likes to sign big stars. Most those he signed for Newcastle were journeymen, unknowns and gambles. Shearer was a superstar, Sir Les was the finished article, the rest were mainly a mixed bunch. Same at City. I genuinly believe the sale of Milner has played a bigger part in this than transfer budget, players coming in and this DOF thing. And I'll tell you why. KK says publicly Milner is not for sale, that the chairman doesn't even want that (he must have heard this from somewhere given how cagey he has been all summer about talking for others), he raves about him and then he gets sold from underneath him, how must that make him feel? Like a complete cunt. It undermines him in the eyes of the media, the press, his bosses, his players and the fans. I believe KK was reassured Milner would not be sold and when he did get sold, that's when he started to kick-off, that's when he started to question other things and other areas of the club. And please people, don't say because we got 12m and Milner wasn't that good that KK is wrong on Milner, his trust and confidence was taking for granted. He stuck up for the player in public and made big noises about him. Selling him says to the team that their boss, their manager, isn't really in control and that to a manager is very bad and can cause huge problems. KK will ahve experienced dressing rooms that have gotten wind of a manager becoming less and less in control and will know fully what that usually brings about, anarchy. Sir Bobby experienced the same, Woodgate sold behind his back, players being sought after without him even knowing, remember his comments on Rooney? He didn't even know we made a bid. I imagine KK didn't know we'd accepted a bid for Milner until it was done and dusted. I do admire and respect your passion, but you're taking it too far here. Keegan did spend big first time around. Milner's a particular case. He asked for a pay rise one year into his contract, and got a knock back. He then put in a written transfer request. We get an offer of £12 million. It'd be silly not to sell. What's a bit disturbing is that, in all probability, Keegan put that statement out about Milner definitely not going at a time when he knew that Milner wanted to go. The Board then retaliated in the PR battle by saying that Milner had put in a transfer request. That's no way to carry on, and I think that's why the Board have said now that Keegan had previously agreed not to comment on transfer issues.

1. With no final say on transfers. 2. The deal offered to Owen is supposedly a cut at basic level with various conditions. 3. Keegan has made several remarks since Jan which suggested he knew there was a very realistic budget - are you saying he suddenly wanted 100m on deadline day or maybe he just wanted the Milner money. 1. No manager has the 'final' say on transfers. They have to convince whoever is handling the financial side of things. 2. I can't believe that if they were cutting his basic salary, they'd have said they were offering him a better deal. That just leaves them wide open. The 'cut in salary' comes from the media. 3. I don't particularly believe the £100 million story or the Lampard / Beckham / Henry bit. But that hasn't come from the Board. I do believe that Keegan wanted to spend more than the Board were prepared to, though. His success in the past was built on persuading the old Board to spend big, and he put a lot of pressure on Man City to do the same. He's an acquirer, not a developer of players, and he's not noted for his patience.

What's the fuss about? Keegan himself acknowledged at the time of Wise's appointment that he had agreed to a DOF structure at the time when he joined. This isn't news. As with Owen and the story about them asking him to take a pay cut, they are simply correcting a false impression that's developed in the media. This whole dispute is all about how much money the Board was prepared to spend on players. That's why Keegan walked out the first time. That's why he got into a dispute at Man City. That's why he's walked out this time. But there is a saying - never complain, never explain.

I guess it's stating the obvious but it doesn't sound like Oliver has any inside information at all. That article could have been written by any one of us by trawling through the back pages of the tabloids.

I wonder why he didn't throw a "wobbler" after being pissed on by Villa last season, I'd say that was worse then losing to Chelsea or Arsenal. What about 1-5 at home to Man U or 3-0 away to Liverpool, Everton away wasn't any better. The characteristic of the Chelsea and Arsenal games were that they were a bringing down to earth after a period of optimism. We were starting to believe again, and then we were put in our place. Like I said, I think Keegan is vulnerable to mood swings. Just a bit ! It's stating the obvious, isn't it? But it's amazing how many people are leaping to the conclusion that when Keegan walks out, it must be the fault of the person who has upset him. During his first spell, it was very important for him to feel that the momentum was always upwards. He banned the word 'consolidation', didn't he. We were able to keep things going forward, because the Halls were pumping more and more money in for transfers. Keegan didn't stay once the money became tighter. Once things dip, even if things are dipping from quite a good position, he gets discouraged very quickly.

I wonder why he didn't throw a "wobbler" after being pissed on by Villa last season, I'd say that was worse then losing to Chelsea or Arsenal. What about 1-5 at home to Man U or 3-0 away to Liverpool, Everton away wasn't any better. The characteristic of the Chelsea and Arsenal games were that they were a bringing down to earth after a period of optimism. We were starting to believe again, and then we were put in our place. Like I said, I think Keegan is vulnerable to mood swings.

To the point and a fair appraisal. Ashley Out. If Alex is right, its got f*** all to do with Ashley, its all about Wise. This is just more of the same mindless tripe that has been flying around for the last few days. This evil system which has supposedly caused all the trouble is the same one that Keegan bought into when he agreed to join the club, and the same one that seems to have done a good job of strengthening the team over the summer. Now because Keegan throws a hissy fit, everyone decides that things were no good all along. I don't think it's occurred to many that it might well be Ashley who's the one that's acted with integrity here. Keegan was trying to use his standing with the fans to force him to sack Wise. In many ways that would have been the easy option for Ashley - that would have kept the peace. But he decided that Wise was doing the job that he'd been asked to do, and there was no justification for sacking him. Regardless of whether you think the DOF system is the right one, at least Ashley was prepared to stick to his beliefs and not make Wise a sacrificial lamb, no matter what the outside pressure was. Good post - i just dont see the logic that people are forming there opinions from. The way i see it is that Keegans targets didnt fit in with the direction the club wanted to go - what were they supposed to do? Break that fundamental pricipal of the club in order to appease the messiah or stick to there guns? The picture i see in my mind is Ashley sitting lonely in his mansion whilst Keegan has his credit card like a spoilt wife. Why hire him then? Is that a genuine question? Well yes, cause I'm sure it is one KK is still asking himself. I'm sure Ashley will now be viewing that decision as a major mistake. Lots of us were shocked and disappointed at the time of the appointment. Even compared with other English managers, Keegan isn't well suited to a team approach. He has to be the boss, and often I think operates by force of will rather than negotiation. And with a bloke who has exiled himself from the game for three years, you have to question his motivation and staying power, as well as his knowledge of players. At the time that Allardyce was sacked, the team was sinking downwards and there was a lot of anxiety and pressure from the fans. A few bad results early on and the new manager would have been in trouble. As the local hero, Keegan would be a popular choice, and the crowd cut him a lot of slack when we went through the first 9 games without a win, and playing quite badly. So it was a good short-term choice, but very risky in the long term.

To the point and a fair appraisal. Ashley Out. If Alex is right, its got fuck all to do with Ashley, its all about Wise. This is just more of the same mindless tripe that has been flying around for the last few days. This evil system which has supposedly caused all the trouble is the same one that Keegan bought into when he agreed to join the club, and the same one that seems to have done a good job of strengthening the team over the summer. Now because Keegan throws a hissy fit, everyone decides that things were no good all along. I don't think it's occurred to many that it might well be Ashley who's the one that's acted with integrity here. Keegan was trying to use his standing with the fans to force him to sack Wise. In many ways that would have been the easy option for Ashley - that would have kept the peace. But he decided that Wise was doing the job that he'd been asked to do, and there was no justification for sacking him. Regardless of whether you think the DOF system is the right one, at least Ashley was prepared to stick to his beliefs and not make Wise a sacrificial lamb, no matter what the outside pressure was.

It's occured to me that the two Keegan wobblers both occurred after we'd been given a beating by top four clubs. The manner of the defeats emphasised the gap that exists between where we are and where we want to be, and after the Chelsea game, that certainly seemed to damage Keegan's morale. Keegan is vulnerable to these mood swings (eg as with England), and I reckon that it probably didn't take much to tip him over the edge. Just a thought.

In other words, Keegan was told that if he wanted to bring in the players he wanted, others would have to be shifted from the wage bill. Keegan refused to co-operate.