LucaAltieri

We know that Ashley doesn't give a fuck about what the fans think. We know that Ashley doesn't like to spend money. Why would he hire someone just to use them as a scapegoat? Did he suddenly start to care what the fans think or did he suddenly decide he liked wasting money? I see little evidence of either in any other aspect of the club. If he was so keen to keep the fans onside, why would he hire Kinnear in the first place? Why wouldn't he hire someone we respected to be DoF then use them as a scapegoat? Wouldn't that be more plausible? It just doesn't add up. It's fucking bonkers. Then, what do you think Mike hired Kinnear for? I don't necessarily buy the line that he hired Kinnear to not spend money, I think he just likes the old bat. But if you think that appointment was made with the best interests of the club at the heart of it, then you have to be seriously delusional. See Cronky's post above.

Maybe, the billionaire owner with no history working in football, and with multiple other business interests doesn't spend that much time worrying about the inner workings of the club and leaves that to the people he hires specifically for that purpose.

It also implies that Ashley doesn't want us to succeed. The theory goes he just wants to use us as a vehicle to push Sports Direct. I'm sure he does like the free advertisng. But the better we do, the more exposure he gets. What marketing genius wants their brand associated with the football team that gets humped every week? Or at best achieves mid-table stability. Moreover, there are much cheaper ways to buy that advertising. He could have put the same fucking banners up all over SJP or any other ground for a fraction of what it cost to buy the club. It doesn't. Make. Sense.

We know that Ashley doesn't give a fuck about what the fans think. We know that Ashley doesn't like to spend money. Why would he hire someone just to use them as a scapegoat? Did he suddenly start to care what the fans think or did he suddenly decide he liked wasting money? I see little evidence of either in any other aspect of the club. If he was so keen to keep the fans onside, why would he hire Kinnear in the first place? Why wouldn't he hire someone we respected to be DoF then use them as a scapegoat? Wouldn't that be more plausible? It just doesn't add up. It's fucking bonkers.

I think "he's a professional" is the weakest argument for Pardew that I've seen yet. Me pointing out his experience and qualifications isn't an argument for keeping him at the club. There are many reasons why he shouldn't be here. Me pointing that out is merely to move the conversation on from "He's clueless! He's a charlatan! He's only there because he's blowing Ashley!" shit. It's tedious. We've got a manager who had us performing well and with many of the same players as we have now we're currently shit. There's some interesting debate to be had around it if you want to look at it sensibly. The blind rage, insult-fest is just fucking boring. Sorry like, I'm not having this. There has been very reasonable discussion going on about Pardew and his deficiencies for a number of years now (even when we finished 5th, his gaping flaws were all pointed out, and it was shouted very loudly that they would come back and bite us), and all along the way you've popped your head up every few months to tell us how utterly wrong we were. Personally I've discussed his tactics, man-management, media presence etc etc to absolute fucking death and now I've been at the stage for months where I can do nothing other than laugh at him and call him a cunt. If you wanted reasonable discussion instead of ignoring what has been absolutely fucking obvious for a long time, you should have had it, instead you (and notable others) came on and mocked people who had very genuine concerns, and now you want "interesting debate"? Go back 12 months and look at anything posted in the football forum by Beren, Interpolic, Hanz, Dave, Sewelly, mrmojorisin and countless others. There's your interesting debate. We were here a long time before you were interested in listening. Nah, that's bullshit. 12 months ago we had the same shite we do now with very few measured or reasoned opinions. I get that many people don't like him but most of it boils down to petty reactionary stuff. Very few on here wanted him to begin with (I wasn't thrilled either) and from then on every negative, however minor, was evidence he was a fraud. Anything positive was someone else's doing. Anyone with who had the nerve to suggest we wait and see what he does was always shouted down. I don't mock people for their genuine concerns. I mock people for over the top, conspiracy theorist, reactionary bullshit. It's never just "we should be more positive against these teams" it's always "he's trying to destroy the club and laughing at us." It's never just "Kinnear was a bad appointment and we're paying the price for it now," it's always "Ashley appointed Kinnear to deliberately not sign anyone." It's ridiculous, batshit stuff and anyone who dares say so is one of them. That's why people like me only poke our heads in once in a while and prod you for kicks, because you've got fuckall interesting to say. You just want to agree with each other that the sky is falling.

I don't know. They lack goals. Short of turning them into Arsenal and have them pass the ball into the net I don't think there's much Poyet could have done. He took a punt on another striker in January... that didn't work out. They recalled the kid that they had out on loan... he hasn't worked out. They tried playing midfielders up front to see if they could get it done... that didn't work out. They know what the problem is, they just didn't find the right personnel to fix it. Pardew couldn't do much, Poyet couldn't do much. For someone with an avatar featuring Mourinho and Sir Bobby Robson you don't seem to have much appreciation for the effect a manager can have on a team. Where did Tony Pulis get his goals, down the back of the sofa? The manager does his work Sunday-Friday. When it comes to Saturday he's a spectator. He can affect the culture of the club to a point... PDC made it a shitty atmosphere, Poyet seems to have cheered the players up enough to go on a up run but not much more. I'm sure Poyet has Antiscore working on his finishing every day in training... he might even be banging them in. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him bury it in the back of the net when it actually matters. When it became apparent he couldn't fix Altidore he tried other options. Multiple options. He does't have the time and/or ability to get it fixed. Maybe you can suggest what exactly it is a manager should have a player or a team do if they just aren't able to score goals? What would you do with Altidore or Cisse? Players you know can score goals but just aren't? Mourinho couldn't get Torres scoring like he was. Managers don't have a magic wand.

I think "he's a professional" is the weakest argument for Pardew that I've seen yet. Me pointing out his experience and qualifications isn't an argument for keeping him at the club. There are many reasons why he shouldn't be here. Me pointing that out is merely to move the conversation on from "He's clueless! He's a charlatan! He's only there because he's blowing Ashley!" shit. It's tedious. We've got a manager who had us performing well and with many of the same players as we have now we're currently shit. There's some interesting debate to be had around it if you want to look at it sensibly. The blind rage, insult-fest is just fucking boring.

What do you want me to say? It's a safety-first formation that works well when you break quickly and have a striker that can handle the role. We don't have that striker (at least not fit and playing), we're not breaking quickly enough although in season past we were much better at it, and it's not providing enough safety to squeek the odd result at the moment. We're just getting hammered. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the formation but I agree the execution has been shit, performances have been shit, and Pardew has to answer for it. 451 in itself isn't a crime. *shrug* So basically we are playing the wrong formation for the players we have available. If only there was a job description for someone who could sort that out. Our problems are deeper than the wrong formation. We're giving away a lot of goals recently. There are two ways you can go with it; be more attacking and hope that takes the pressure off (but might leave you open once you lose the ball), or keep it even tighter. Given we're already playing a 451 and our attacking options are pretty shit (injured, lack confidence, has never been prolific, was never any good, is 12 years old) there's not much room for movement. See that is the bollocks that Pardew has everyone believing, we've never been tight, let alone even tighter under him. By design he's a defensive coach, all i ask you do is look at our goals conceded from the very start of his reign and you'll see that he has been far far away from keeping us tight. And it isn't because we attack too much, it's that he is crap at it, what more evidence do you need, for you to see what is right there in front of you. Honestly just look. I don't have the stats in front of me but I'm prepared to go along with that. Moreover, I agree with the general opinion on here that we shouldn't be trying to keep it tight and not over committing against the likes of Palace, Stoke, and the Mackems. We should be getting at teams like that. We lack depth in quality but we've certainly got enough to see off those fuckers. However, when you lack genuine threat up front, as we do at the moment, where do you go from there? We're not really able to get at teams when our strikers are injured or out of form and our only real linkup play comes from a player who is hit or miss and in and out of the team. He's trying to keep it tight and it's not working. He's obviously trying to stabilize. Stop losing, get morale back up, and build on a defensive record then take it from there. But you're right, he's proving that he doesn't have what it takes to motivate the players to do that. I just don't see a way out for him now. He could play HBA in a free role behind our two best strikers at the moment and we'd still be shit. I can understand the defensive mentality in trying to fix the problem. My main objection is the execution.

Spudil trying to make sure he disappears in the dead of night.

I'm not claiming he's any good at it, by the way.

I don't know. They lack goals. Short of turning them into Arsenal and have them pass the ball into the net I don't think there's much Poyet could have done. He took a punt on another striker in January... that didn't work out. They recalled the kid that they had out on loan... he hasn't worked out. They tried playing midfielders up front to see if they could get it done... that didn't work out. They know what the problem is, they just didn't find the right personnel to fix it.

Poyet was on a hiding to nothing taking that shower of shit over mid-season. I don't think he's the right man for the job anyway, I can't see him being motivated in a dump like that in the lower divisions. He didn't do his career any favours going there. I begrudgingly rate him. He'll have them somewhere near the top of the Championship next season. They'e not going to attract anyone better and no bigger clubs are about to take a risk on him. This is a good opportunity for all parties. I do feel Di Canio is partially vindicated, though. The players are to blame for the mackem's current plight. However, PDC is still a cunt who hasn't a clue on how deal with these sorts of players without resorting to being a nightmarish dictator. He made the situation worse rather than better. Didn't he sign most of them? From what my mackem mates tell me there's some debate about how much was down to him and how much of the recruitment was De Fanti. However, they needed to sign a lot of players because of the size of their squad. Some are always going to flop due to either not adapting to the league or the club. That's not particularly helped if you're recruiting mercenaries (s they have to - after all, who the fuck wants to play for Sunderland?) and hire Mussolini to manage them.

Mick, I come on here to hash this shit out. If you think I'm wrong then tell me why. The one-liners give me nothing.

Nay. I don't make half the grammatical errors he does.

What do you want me to say? It's a safety-first formation that works well when you break quickly and have a striker that can handle the role. We don't have that striker (at least not fit and playing), we're not breaking quickly enough although in season past we were much better at it, and it's not providing enough safety to squeek the odd result at the moment. We're just getting hammered. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the formation but I agree the execution has been shit, performances have been shit, and Pardew has to answer for it. 451 in itself isn't a crime. *shrug* So basically we are playing the wrong formation for the players we have available. If only there was a job description for someone who could sort that out. Our problems are deeper than the wrong formation. We're giving away a lot of goals recently. There are two ways you can go with it; be more attacking and hope that takes the pressure off (but might leave you open once you lose the ball), or keep it even tighter. Given we're already playing a 451 and our attacking options are pretty shit (injured, lack confidence, has never been prolific, was never any good, is 12 years old) there's not much room for movement.

Because he has to say something, he doesn't want to get sacked for telling the truth, the media don't care if it's nonsense, and he reckons (correctly) that most of the fans won't notice.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go and get a consultation from Pardew about open heart surgery or his views on the middle eastern conflict. I just object to the notion that we know more about football than he does. That we can somehow see Ban Arfa's upside and he's just too dumb to notice. That we know that we'd be better off playing a 4-3-3 and in his 15 years of management and throughout his extensive professional training he's just never heard of it. It's stupidity. The biggest barriers to getting your UEFA badges are 1) time 2) money 3) being affiliated with a club. In that regard being an ex-pro with contacts helps get your foot in the door. But you still have to put in the work. They're not just handing the licences out to any ex-pros who happen to want them. The man has a clue what he's doing. It's just not working for several reasons; players aren't performing (his fault), players aren't of a high enough quality (club's fault).

What do you want me to say? It's a safety-first formation that works well when you break quickly and have a striker that can handle the role. We don't have that striker (at least not fit and playing), we're not breaking quickly enough although in season past we were much better at it, and it's not providing enough safety to squeek the odd result at the moment. We're just getting hammered. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the formation but I agree the execution has been shit, performances have been shit, and Pardew has to answer for it. 451 in itself isn't a crime. *shrug*

Of course I'm beyond objectivity, I've seen enough of the fraud to know he's a shit manager who is out of his depth and should be out of his job. You seem happy enough to go along with the piece of shit so enjoy getting pissed on while he's still here, which will hopefully not be for much longer. I've said his time is up. He should be gone. Just because I'm not willing to lump him in with Pinochet makes me some sort of sympathizer, apparently. And that cannot be tolerated around these parts. He's a football manager. Not good enough for us, but not the worst we've had in the last 10 years either.

That's a load of bollocks, Pardew isn't clever enough to do a "Mourinho," he never has been and never will be. He's a fraud and you still haven't seen through him. Nah, you're talking s****. Whatever you might think of the sleazy, chavvy, git on a personal level he's still a professional football manager, been in the game for years as a manager and a player, has his UEFA licences. I wouldn't trust him on much, but the one thing he has even half a clue about is football. I don't know if you've ever tried doing any of the coaching badges but they get pretty intensive pretty quickly. What might seem obvious to us isn't going unnoticed by a pro. they're just seeing other things too. When it comes to football I reckon he knows more than message board Mick (and me). I don't think he's as good as Mourinho with the psychology stuff. And I think he's lost some of the players. But I'll give him the credit. I think he's trying. For me the parallels are obvious: find talk points that distract from the players, play down expectations ("we aren't favourites to win the league" while being top of the table), etc. You're beyond help. You're beyond objectivity. It's understandable, our club is fucking depressing. But you're still wrong.

That's a load of bollocks, Pardew isn't clever enough to do a "Mourinho," he never has been and never will be. He's a fraud and you still haven't seen through him. Nah, you're talking shite. Whatever you might think of the sleazy, chavvy, git on a personal level he's still a professional football manager, been in the game for years as a manager and a player, has his UEFA licences. I wouldn't trust him on much, but the one thing he has even half a clue about is football. I don't know if you've ever tried doing any of the coaching badges but they get pretty intensive pretty quickly. What might seem obvious to us isn't going unnoticed by a pro. They're just seeing other things too. When it comes to football I reckon he knows more than message board Mick (and me). I don't think he's as good as Mourinho with the psychology stuff. And I think he's lost some of the players. But I'll give him the credit. I think he's trying. For me the parallels are obvious: find talking points that distract from the players, play down expectations ("we aren't favourites to win the league" while being top of the table), etc. Calling him thick is just lazy. I think he's done here as a manager. He hasn't been good enough. But he's not thick.

Delude or gullible? Neither. It's pretty obvious what he's trying to do as far as I can see. He's trying to be Mourinho... distract and deflect. For a while I think it worked. Now it doesn't. I don't see what's wrong with that statement.

Martinez is a better manager, without question. If he was available I'd sack off Pardew and have him in a second. But I don't think Pardew is completely f***ing useless. He's probably not worthy of any more time. He hasn't been good enough in what I consider key areas of management; motivating players and getting confidence players, like Cisse, playing consistently well. He's on borrowed time. He's a mixed bag and nowhere near Martinez in terms of quality. But that wasn't the point I was making. We don't have Martinez nor do we have any real chance of attracting Martinez. We know Pardew's failings but the club's recruiting failings are just bigger in my opinion. We need a manager who can work around those. At the start it looked like Pardew could. It's becoming increasingly obvious that he can't. What are his strengths? He's diplomatic. We see him on TV obviously talking shite, and pisses off the fans because we know he's talking shite, but at the same time he protects the players. He tries to make up shit excuses like blaming "science" or refereeing decisions not just to protect himself, but to protect the players. He's being the anti-Di Canio. He doesn't want to slag them off or slag off the club (and their recruiting policy) because that's toxic. In previous season it has helped with morale. The players liked him. Limited players like Perch, Williamson, Simpson performed above themselves for him. Players who wanted to leave like Colo and Cabaye were convinced to stick around. When we had bad results we'd bounce back - the battering we took at Fulham a year or two ago sticks in my mind. Our heads didn't stay down. He appears to have lost that ability now. Maybe it's because the players no longer believe in the bullshit, maybe there's a bad influence in the locker room (I don't know, just speculating), maybe the club losing players like Cabaye has got their heads down, maybe it's a combination of lots of things. He has his failings, but he does (or did) have an up-side too.

Martinez is a better manager, without question. If he was available I'd sack off Pardew and have him in a second. But I don't think Pardew is completely fucking useless. He's probably not worthy of any more time. He hasn't been good enough in what I consider key areas of management; motivating players and getting confidence players, like Cisse, playing consistently well. He's on borrowed time. He's a mixed bag and nowhere near Martinez in terms of quality. But that wasn't the point I was making. We don't have Martinez nor do we have any real chance of attracting Martinez. We know Pardew's failings but the club's recruiting failings are just bigger in my opinion. We need a manager who can work around those. At the start it looked like Pardew could. It's becoming increasingly obvious that he can't.