NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd go along with most of that. The question is how do we change it? That would involve removing Kinnear and bringing in a much better manager long-term and supporting that manager in the jan window. Not gonna happen is it? Our season is already screwed up but the longer JK stays the greater the danger of relegation grows. I won't say it is a real prospect just now because there are still many points to play for but if he's here in jan I for one will be extremely worried and I can't see us climbing that table any time soon. I know he failed to save Forest, but it still needs better players, he can only do so much. I think we would have done better with Keegan, but mainly because of the stability factor as well as Keegans superior management ability. I think he's tough and with a few players could keep us up but not if we don't get a couple of players who will come into the team, improve it and not get hurt. The problem isn't with the first 11. If we played our first 11 we would have probably had a comfortable season, but in the real world nobody plays their first 11 for the majority of games, even a club with few injuries needs 15 or 16 players and we didn't start the season with that amount of decent enough players to improve on last year. How the club ever thought they could get through this season with Viduka as the only credible main front man is beyond me. He might not even play one game, and it was so predictable that he wouldn't be around very much. Or that bringing in Xisco would be their get out. Its crap this, it really is. The club has stepped back 20 years here in terms of their outlook and ambition, and I can't see how anybody can justify it in the slightest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I remember when we brought Sibierski in to be our main front man. Halcyon days indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I remember when we brought Sibierski in to be our main front man. Halcyon days indeed. the difference being that we didn't make a profit in the transfer market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd go along with most of that. The question is how do we change it? That would involve removing Kinnear and bringing in a much better manager long-term and supporting that manager in the jan window. Not gonna happen is it? Our season is already screwed up but the longer JK stays the greater the danger of relegation grows. I won't say it is a real prospect just now because there are still many points to play for but if he's here in jan I for one will be extremely worried and I can't see us climbing that table any time soon. I know he failed to save Forest, but it still needs better players, he can only do so much. I think we would have done better with Keegan, but mainly because of the stability factor as well as Keegans superior management ability. I think he's tough and with a few players could keep us up but not if we don't get a couple of players who will come into the team, improve it and not get hurt. The problem isn't with the first 11. If we played our first 11 we would have probably had a comfortable season, but in the real world nobody plays their first 11 for the majority of games, even a club with few injuries needs 15 or 16 players and we didn't start the season with that amount of decent enough players to improve on last year. How the club ever thought they could get through this season with Viduka as the only credible main front man is beyond me. He might not even play one game, and it was so predictable that he wouldn't be around very much. Or that bringing in Xisco would be their get out. Its crap this, it really is. The club has stepped back 20 years here in terms of their outlook and ambition, and I can't see how anybody can justify it in the slightest Wasn't there some comment from Wise about signing world class players? That he was signing some. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd go along with most of that. The question is how do we change it? That would involve removing Kinnear and bringing in a much better manager long-term and supporting that manager in the jan window. Not gonna happen is it? Our season is already screwed up but the longer JK stays the greater the danger of relegation grows. I won't say it is a real prospect just now because there are still many points to play for but if he's here in jan I for one will be extremely worried and I can't see us climbing that table any time soon. I know he failed to save Forest, but it still needs better players, he can only do so much. I think we would have done better with Keegan, but mainly because of the stability factor as well as Keegans superior management ability. I think he's tough and with a few players could keep us up but not if we don't get a couple of players who will come into the team, improve it and not get hurt. The problem isn't with the first 11. If we played our first 11 we would have probably had a comfortable season, but in the real world nobody plays their first 11 for the majority of games, even a club with few injuries needs 15 or 16 players and we didn't start the season with that amount of decent enough players to improve on last year. How the club ever thought they could get through this season with Viduka as the only credible main front man is beyond me. He might not even play one game, and it was so predictable that he wouldn't be around very much. Or that bringing in Xisco would be their get out. Its crap this, it really is. The club has stepped back 20 years here in terms of their outlook and ambition, and I can't see how anybody can justify it in the slightest Wasn't there some comment from Wise about signing world class players? That he was signing some. do you mean trophy players ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd go along with most of that. The question is how do we change it? That would involve removing Kinnear and bringing in a much better manager long-term and supporting that manager in the jan window. Not gonna happen is it? Our season is already screwed up but the longer JK stays the greater the danger of relegation grows. I won't say it is a real prospect just now because there are still many points to play for but if he's here in jan I for one will be extremely worried and I can't see us climbing that table any time soon. I know he failed to save Forest, but it still needs better players, he can only do so much. I think we would have done better with Keegan, but mainly because of the stability factor as well as Keegans superior management ability. I think he's tough and with a few players could keep us up but not if we don't get a couple of players who will come into the team, improve it and not get hurt. The problem isn't with the first 11. If we played our first 11 we would have probably had a comfortable season, but in the real world nobody plays their first 11 for the majority of games, even a club with few injuries needs 15 or 16 players and we didn't start the season with that amount of decent enough players to improve on last year. How the club ever thought they could get through this season with Viduka as the only credible main front man is beyond me. He might not even play one game, and it was so predictable that he wouldn't be around very much. Or that bringing in Xisco would be their get out. Its crap this, it really is. The club has stepped back 20 years here in terms of their outlook and ambition, and I can't see how anybody can justify it in the slightest Wasn't there some comment from Wise about signing world class players? That he was signing some. do you mean trophy players ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elbee909 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I'd go along with most of that. The question is how do we change it? That would involve removing Kinnear and bringing in a much better manager long-term and supporting that manager in the jan window. Not gonna happen is it? Our season is already screwed up but the longer JK stays the greater the danger of relegation grows. I won't say it is a real prospect just now because there are still many points to play for but if he's here in jan I for one will be extremely worried and I can't see us climbing that table any time soon. I know he failed to save Forest, but it still needs better players, he can only do so much. I think we would have done better with Keegan, but mainly because of the stability factor as well as Keegans superior management ability. I think he's tough and with a few players could keep us up but not if we don't get a couple of players who will come into the team, improve it and not get hurt. The problem isn't with the first 11. If we played our first 11 we would have probably had a comfortable season, but in the real world nobody plays their first 11 for the majority of games, even a club with few injuries needs 15 or 16 players and we didn't start the season with that amount of decent enough players to improve on last year. How the club ever thought they could get through this season with Viduka as the only credible main front man is beyond me. He might not even play one game, and it was so predictable that he wouldn't be around very much. Or that bringing in Xisco would be their get out. Its crap this, it really is. The club has stepped back 20 years here in terms of their outlook and ambition, and I can't see how anybody can justify it in the slightest Wasn't there some comment from Wise about signing world class players? That he was signing some. do you mean trophy players ? Never fucking ends, does it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Easier said than done. Edit - now doesn't make sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slugsy Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think it will come down to the manager, I don't think the squad of players that we have are good enough and no matter who we have in charge, will struggle to do anything with the squad for two reasons: 1. Our quality players are injury prone 2. Our fit players are either over the hill, not good enough or too young/inexperienced Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 the difference being that we didn't make a profit in the transfer market. In the summer of 2004 we made a profit of £7 million when we needed a replacement for Woodgate and we lost Gary Speed, we ended up making a profit and sacking the manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Oh fuck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think it will come down to the manager, I don't think the squad of players that we have are good enough and no matter who we have in charge, will struggle to do anything with the squad for two reasons: 1. Our quality players are injury prone 2. Our fit players are either over the hill, not good enough or too young/inexperienced We got a draw at Man U while playing Given, Beye, N'Zogbia, Taylor, Coloccini, Butt, Milner, Guthrie, Gutierrez, Martins & Duff. I don't see too many injury prone players who played and got a result against the best team in the league, the manager will play a big part in how our season goes but the lack of stability since that result could play a bigger part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Oh f***. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 A win tonight and he has a record of W1, D2, L1, with one draw being against a team we never do well against away, and Man City who've beaten us a few times up here recently. And if we forget the fact Saturday was a derby, and we'd lost at say, Blackburn, he wouldn't be getting the same stick I doubt. If he doesn't win tonight though he can f*ck off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 tell ya, i've been gone for weeks (bastards made me work for my money recently, can't recall that in the interview) to come back and see that i could basically never have left same people, same bullshit, same arguments going nowhere with no idea how to get there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 the difference being that we didn't make a profit in the transfer market. In the summer of 2004 we made a profit of £7 million when we needed a replacement for Woodgate and we lost Gary Speed, we ended up making a profit and sacking the manager. I'm not really interested in cherry picking by you. At the end of the day, no manager complained about backing from the old board, so far under this lot we have had 2 out of 2 doing it. The results are there for all to see. Never mind, launching a promotion challenge next season will be just like the old days to people like you. If you want to talk about a replacement for Woodgate, see my sig which contains previous comments by yourself about it. End of my involvement in this discussion, I only hope it is noticed I didn't ask you to raise the above comments, as I'm talking about the current situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think it will come down to the manager, I don't think the squad of players that we have are good enough and no matter who we have in charge, will struggle to do anything with the squad for two reasons: 1. Our quality players are injury prone 2. Our fit players are either over the hill, not good enough or too young/inexperienced We got a draw at Man U while playing Given, Beye, N'Zogbia, Taylor, Coloccini, Butt, Milner, Guthrie, Gutierrez, Martins & Duff. I don't see too many injury prone players who played and got a result against the best team in the league, the manager will play a big part in how our season goes but the lack of stability since that result could play a bigger part. we also won at Liverpool with Mirandhina replacing Beardsley, when Liverpool were the top team in the country, and we were soon relegated. Whats your point ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Ahhh, how refreshing! I hope all the points that weren't covered in the last three million and sixty two threads are brought up now. Best make myself a cup of tea, this is going to be a doozy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think it will come down to the manager, I don't think the squad of players that we have are good enough and no matter who we have in charge, will struggle to do anything with the squad for two reasons: 1. Our quality players are injury prone 2. Our fit players are either over the hill, not good enough or too young/inexperienced We got a draw at Man U while playing Given, Beye, N'Zogbia, Taylor, Coloccini, Butt, Milner, Guthrie, Gutierrez, Martins & Duff. I don't see too many injury prone players who played and got a result against the best team in the league, the manager will play a big part in how our season goes but the lack of stability since that result could play a bigger part. we also won at Liverpool with Mirandhina replacing Beardsley, when Liverpool were the top team in the country, and we were soon relegated. Whats your point ? Haha, I don't always agree with you, but this reply will be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Haha, I don't always agree with you, but this reply will be interesting. I can't see any connection, Mirandinha came the season before we beat Liverpool, I would have thought Gazza going and his replacements had more to do with us getting relegated. We finished 8th in Mirandinha's first season, the first season without Beardsley but with Gazza. What he's said proves that you can get a result at the top team and still go down, that's not in dispute. That season could just as easily be put down to the manager influencing events because McFaul spent money on players who were highly regarded but they didn't play well together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Haha, I don't always agree with you, but this reply will be interesting. I can't see any connection, Mirandinha came the season before we beat Liverpool, I would have thought Gazza going and his replacements had more to do with us getting relegated. We finished 8th in Mirandinha's first season, the first season without Beardsley but with Gazza. What he's said proves that you can get a result at the top team and still go down, that's not in dispute. That season could just as easily be put down to the manager influencing events because McFaul spent money on players who were highly regarded but they didn't play well together. so whats your point ? Or are you applying the logic of a 5 year old ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 so whats your point ? Or are you applying the logic of a 5 year old ? The point is, I do think it will come down to the manager amongst other things. We went to Man U with the manager in place, no turmoil and got a result with a team that could play most of our games if they were picked. If they are good enough to get a result at Old Trafford then they are good enough to get a result against most teams. We did that without the players who would be classed as injury prone, Viduka and Owen were both missing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slugsy Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I don't think it will come down to the manager, I don't think the squad of players that we have are good enough and no matter who we have in charge, will struggle to do anything with the squad for two reasons: 1. Our quality players are injury prone 2. Our fit players are either over the hill, not good enough or too young/inexperienced We got a draw at Man U while playing Given, Beye, N'Zogbia, Taylor, Coloccini, Butt, Milner, Guthrie, Gutierrez, Martins & Duff. I don't see too many injury prone players who played and got a result against the best team in the league, the manager will play a big part in how our season goes but the lack of stability since that result could play a bigger part. One result - Milner aint here now and Colo and Jonas apart - the rest of those players have been poor in my eyes since (Beye and Martins due to injury - one of my original points) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 One result - Milner aint here now and Colo and Jonas apart - the rest of those players have been poor in my eyes since (Beye and Martins due to injury - one of my original points) I know it was one result and that Milner has gone but I think the manager going is the biggest difference and will have more effect on our results than anything else. I still think we're better than most teams and squads at the bottom of the league, I'm not sure that I can say the same about our manager and I'd be surprised if you could say that he is, I know that you haven't said it. I've always said that Kinnear is better than what we had after Keegan left the club, that doesn't make him any better than that. The instability isn't helping anybody either but for now that's what we have to deal with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 There are three options which come to mind with how to get through this period for me: 1) Keep Joe Kinnear as manager on a monthly contract until the club is sold assuming a sale is imminent. 2) Take the club off the market and appoint a full time manager in Kinnear's place. 3) Keep whining about how the club has gone backwards, lament Keegan and the board every day in every way. While many have gone for option 3 that doesn't actually help us in the situation we find ourselves, so I still feel option 1 is the way to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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