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A bit embarssed that i'm making this thread but here goes nothing.

 

I was talking to a friend (Girl) today and she was talking about how brining back Communism in a reformed way can be good, of course i found that pretty absurd but when i actually went to an argument about why it is so i kinda felt stupid by my lack of knowledge about it  :blush:

 

Remind me again, why is it so bad?

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Nothing wrong with Communism in theory, just that it's never been possible for it to be implemented in its purest theoretical form, because human nature gets in the way and corrupts the ideal. At its essence, communism is at odds with the inherent human need for hierarchy and social stratification.

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Nothing wrong with Communism in theory, just that it's never been possible for it to be implemented in its purest theoretical form, because human nature gets in the way and corrupts the ideal. At its essence, communism is at odds with the inherent human need for hierarchy and social stratification.

 

Was about to say something like this, but must admit defeat in that I couldn't force the term "stratification" into my explanation.

 

Essentially just highlighting the difference between theory and application really.

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There are so many different forms of Communism it sort of depends on what her definition of it is. Also Communism is the pure marxist sense has never been achieved anywhere so its a very academic argument to begin with.

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Nothing wrong with Communism in theory, just that it's never been possible for it to be implemented in its purest theoretical form, because human nature gets in the way and corrupts the ideal. At its essence, communism is at odds with the inherent human need for hierarchy and social stratification.

 

Thats pretty much what i said (thankfully..) problem is she thinks it can be implemented, my point was basically is that its a failed system because it was never implemented properly, it just sounds good when you hear about it but in reality its almost impossible to implement.

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There are so many different forms of Communism it sort of depends on what her definition of it is. Also Communism is the pure marxist sense has never been achieved anywhere so its a very academic argument to begin with.

 

Agreed. Also, such are the varying degrees to which any theory can be carried out in practice, it's hard to truly compare Theory X with Theory Y and make strong universal conclusions. But then again, that's what they are. Theories.

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Off the top of my head my own personal criticisms of Communism applied can mostly be applied to Maoists - it lost its way in terms of actually bringing about economic and social justice and instead focuses on structuring people's lives from a position of very suspect personal morality which inevitably leads to just killing people (lots and lots of people) and ruling them through terror (see the Cendero Luminoso of Peru and the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia).

 

As far as placing checks and balances against the concentration of wealth and capital through things like taxes and subsudies of health and education well that is Socialism and it is currently practiced errr... everywhere (including the UK).

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The ideology will never work.  No-one will ever be equal to each other.  A workers (proletarian) uprising would never sustain itself.  There would be constant exploitation, and equality would go out the window.  Think about it to the extreme, why would you go through the stressful process to become a neurosurgeon when you can be a binman etc for what, in theory, would be the same income?

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I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the fuck they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

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Guest Heneage

I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I fucking love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

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The ideology will never work.  No-one will ever be equal to each other.  A workers (proletarian) uprising would never sustain itself.  There would be constant exploitation, and equality would go out the window.  Think about it to the extreme, why would you go through the stressful process to become a neurosurgeon when you can be a binman etc for what, in theory, would be the same income?

 

You're assuming that material wealth is the only thing that someone gets out of work. I mean, which is more rewarding in terms of job satisfaction -- to save lives in the operating theatre, or to haul about heavy bags of putrid rubbish all day long? And anyway, if you were only motivated by money, there are ways to make a lot more than by being a neurosurgeon, so you could equally argue that, under capitalism, why would you go through the stressful process of becoming a neurosurgeon when you can be bond trader for much greater material rewards?

 

Of course, communism makes the same mistake. So what's the difference, I used to ask the communists at university, between working on a fucking tedious production line in a communist society, and working on a fucking tedious production line in a capitalist one? The difference, they'd reply, is that in a communist society the production line would belong to you (and everyone else). But to me it would always still just be a tedious fucking production line.

 

The nature of work is as important as the material results of work, otherwise no one would bother (or yearn) to find something they actually like doing, or that suits their nature.

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I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I fucking love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

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Guest Heneage

I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I f***ing love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

 

But that's exactly my point, you can't change it, you can't change the fundamental feelings of people. Too far have we come too much has been done. For all those that agree to it, some will say no and say that they don't want to change, and thus form off their own countries/groups whatever.

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The ideology will never work.  No-one will ever be equal to each other.  A workers (proletarian) uprising would never sustain itself.  There would be constant exploitation, and equality would go out the window.  Think about it to the extreme, why would you go through the stressful process to become a neurosurgeon when you can be a binman etc for what, in theory, would be the same income?

 

You're assuming that material wealth is the only thing that someone gets out of work. I mean, which is more rewarding in terms of job satisfaction -- to save lives in the operating theatre, or to haul about heavy bags of putrid rubbish all day long? And anyway, if you were only motivated by money, there are ways to make a lot more than by being a neurosurgeon, so you could equally argue that, under capitalism, why would you go through the stressful process of becoming a neurosurgeon when you can be bond trader for much greater material rewards?

 

Of course, communism makes the same mistake. So what's the difference, I used to ask the communists at university, between working on a fucking tedious production line in a communist society, and working on a fucking tedious production line in a capitalist one? The difference, they'd reply, is that in a communist society the production line would belong to you (and everyone else). But to me it would always still just be a tedious fucking production line.

 

The nature of work is as important as the material results of work, otherwise no one would bother (or yearn) to find something they actually like doing, or that suits their nature.

 

I'm not a capitalist but one thing that gets me out of bed in the morning is the realisation that i dont have to work on the factory production line. My work is fortunately more interesting than that.

 

I did one year at a factory in North Shields that made insulation for offshore oil pipelines and the material we cut up made black dust get in every crevice in your body. Horrible work.

 

Best year of my life funnily enough :lol:

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The ideology will never work.  No-one will ever be equal to each other.  A workers (proletarian) uprising would never sustain itself.  There would be constant exploitation, and equality would go out the window.  Think about it to the extreme, why would you go through the stressful process to become a neurosurgeon when you can be a binman etc for what, in theory, would be the same income?

 

You're assuming that material wealth is the only thing that someone gets out of work. I mean, which is more rewarding in terms of job satisfaction -- to save lives in the operating theatre, or to haul about heavy bags of putrid rubbish all day long? And anyway, if you were only motivated by money, there are ways to make a lot more than by being a neurosurgeon, so you could equally argue that, under capitalism, why would you go through the stressful process of becoming a neurosurgeon when you can be bond trader for much greater material rewards?

 

Of course, communism makes the same mistake. So what's the difference, I used to ask the communists at university, between working on a fucking tedious production line in a communist society, and working on a fucking tedious production line in a capitalist one? The difference, they'd reply, is that in a communist society the production line would belong to you (and everyone else). But to me it would always still just be a tedious fucking production line.

 

The nature of work is as important as the material results of work, otherwise no one would bother (or yearn) to find something they actually like doing, or that suits their nature.

 

I'm not a capitalist but one thing that gets me out of bed in the morning is the realisation that i dont have to work on the factory production line. My work is fortunately more interesting than that.

 

I did one year at a factory in North Shields that made insulation for offshore oil pipelines and the material we cut up made black dust get in every crevice in your body. Horrible work.

 

Best year of my life funnily enough :lol:

 

I worked in a bread factory, on the oven, which was basically a very hot production line. Twelve-hour shifts, one week days and one week nights. Come home with burns all over your arms where a hot tin caught your flesh above where the gloves ran out. Some of the positions were so tedious they'd literally make me cry with boredom. Twelve hours of taking the lid from the belt coming back from the front of the oven, and putting it on the tin full of Mother's Pride dough on its way back in.

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I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I f***ing love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

 

But that's exactly my point, you can't change it, you can't change the fundamental feelings of people. Too far have we come too much has been done. For all those that agree to it, some will say no and say that they don't want to change, and thus form off their own countries/groups whatever.

 

But is society the same thing as "the fundamental feelings of people"? I sometimes feel like nicking something I can't afford, or of lamping some irritating tosser, but there are all sorts of societal reasons why I don't act on these feelings.

 

Or, do isolated tribes in the Brazilian rain forests have completely different societies from ours because they have different fundamental feelings?

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Guest Heneage

I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I f***ing love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

 

But that's exactly my point, you can't change it, you can't change the fundamental feelings of people. Too far have we come too much has been done. For all those that agree to it, some will say no and say that they don't want to change, and thus form off their own countries/groups whatever.

 

But is society the same thing as "the fundamental feelings of people"? I sometimes feel like nicking something I can't afford, or of lamping some irritating tosser, but there are all sorts of societal reasons why I don't act on these feelings.

 

Or, do isolated tribes in the Brazilian rain forests have completely different societies from ours because they have different fundamental feelings?

 

Intricacies like that are different though. If you look at those Brazilian tribes, I bet they barter and trade between each other. If one moves in on the other they fight. That is us as humans. You don't act on your feelings to lamp someone as civilization dictates you will be arrested, obviously if you do that in Brazil you will not be, but do you not think the Brazilian tribesman you hit will seek revenge? We as humans do not share fully.

 

If that was the case home-less people would not exist, the gap in poverty just in this country would not be as wide to the point where Shola Ameobi earns more in one week than a Mother in Byker may see all year. You would have to convince the rich to give up their wealth, and they would rightly turn round and say "No I worked for it". how can anyone justify the scummy Dad on the council estate being fraudulent with benefits deserving parity with the man who has worked for 30 years to pay off his mortgage.

 

Communism by definition requires participation from all its citizens, another thing that would be nigh impossible to achieve, for those who are happy to work and contribute you would have those who are unwilling to do so and expect the state to provide for them.

 

I mean even when you look at communism's major applications Russia, it was shrouded in corruption, and is often held as part of the reason that why the country is in such a horrible state right now. My Dad worked for Nissan and they are building a plant there and their are numerous stories of how unsafe traveling home is.

 

Communism is a lot like prohibition in America, its great in theory, but it will never really work. I mean communism is a case of the right idea but the wrong species.

 

Frank Zappa said it best "Communism will never work because people like to own stuff" 

 

 

 

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I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I f***ing love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

 

But that's exactly my point, you can't change it, you can't change the fundamental feelings of people. Too far have we come too much has been done. For all those that agree to it, some will say no and say that they don't want to change, and thus form off their own countries/groups whatever.

 

But is society the same thing as "the fundamental feelings of people"? I sometimes feel like nicking something I can't afford, or of lamping some irritating tosser, but there are all sorts of societal reasons why I don't act on these feelings.

 

Or, do isolated tribes in the Brazilian rain forests have completely different societies from ours because they have different fundamental feelings?

 

Intricacies like that are different though. If you look at those Brazilian tribes, I bet they barter and trade between each other. If one moves in on the other they fight. That is us as humans. You don't act on your feelings to lamp someone as civilization dictates you will be arrested, obviously if you do that in Brazil you will not be, but do you not think the Brazilian tribesman you hit will seek revenge? We as humans do not share fully.

 

If that was the case home-less people would not exist, the gap in poverty just in this country would not be as wide to the point where Shola Ameobi earns more in one week than a Mother in Byker may see all year. You would have to convince the rich to give up their wealth, and they would rightly turn round and say "No I worked for it". how can anyone justify the scummy Dad on the council estate being fraudulent with benefits deserving parity with the man who has worked for 30 years to pay off his mortgage.

 

Communism by definition requires participation from all its citizens, another thing that would be nigh impossible to achieve, for those who are happy to work and contribute you would have those who are unwilling to do so and expect the state to provide for them.

 

I mean even when you look at communism's major applications Russia, it was shrouded in corruption, and is often held as part of the reason that why the country is in such a horrible state right now. My Dad worked for Nissan and they are building a plant there and their are numerous stories of how unsafe traveling home is.

 

Communism is a lot like prohibition in America, its great in theory, but it will never really work. I mean communism is a case of the right idea but the wrong species.

 

Frank Zappa said it best "Communism will never work because people like to own stuff" 

 

 

 

 

Prohibition wasn't great in theory.  It was a very bad idea introduced by religious nutters.

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I love the tosspots who make up "Northumbria University Socialist Union" and stand with a megaphone outside Habita (what was Bar One for past attendee's) trying to get people to sign up.

 

Dunno what the f*** they hope to achieve.  I'm in no way inclined to join, but the more they try to stop me, the the unlikeliness greatens.

 

I also love similar people who only own t-shirts with the silhouettey picture of Che Guevara on.  Me dad has one, but thats 'cos we actually went to Revolution Square in Cuba and its a souvenir rather than a "look at me, I'm a socialist, Guevara is god!!!!111!!!!11" kind of thing.

Oh yes, Oh yes, I f***ing love you. Those people are the biggest pricks on campus the one with a pony tail and the one who looks like he didn't get his share of the Communism Pizza at the big Party?

 

Communism doesn't work simple as that, society isn't geared towards it.

 

Er... you're kind of missing the point there, as communists want to change society for precisely that reason.

 

Karl Marx: "Philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it."

 

But that's exactly my point, you can't change it, you can't change the fundamental feelings of people. Too far have we come too much has been done. For all those that agree to it, some will say no and say that they don't want to change, and thus form off their own countries/groups whatever.

 

But is society the same thing as "the fundamental feelings of people"? I sometimes feel like nicking something I can't afford, or of lamping some irritating tosser, but there are all sorts of societal reasons why I don't act on these feelings.

 

Or, do isolated tribes in the Brazilian rain forests have completely different societies from ours because they have different fundamental feelings?

 

Intricacies like that are different though. If you look at those Brazilian tribes, I bet they barter and trade between each other. If one moves in on the other they fight. That is us as humans. You don't act on your feelings to lamp someone as civilization dictates you will be arrested, obviously if you do that in Brazil you will not be, but do you not think the Brazilian tribesman you hit will seek revenge? We as humans do not share fully.

 

If that was the case home-less people would not exist, the gap in poverty just in this country would not be as wide to the point where Shola Ameobi earns more in one week than a Mother in Byker may see all year. You would have to convince the rich to give up their wealth, and they would rightly turn round and say "No I worked for it". how can anyone justify the scummy Dad on the council estate being fraudulent with benefits deserving parity with the man who has worked for 30 years to pay off his mortgage.

 

Communism by definition requires participation from all its citizens, another thing that would be nigh impossible to achieve, for those who are happy to work and contribute you would have those who are unwilling to do so and expect the state to provide for them.

 

I mean even when you look at communism's major applications Russia, it was shrouded in corruption, and is often held as part of the reason that why the country is in such a horrible state right now. My Dad worked for Nissan and they are building a plant there and their are numerous stories of how unsafe traveling home is.

 

Communism is a lot like prohibition in America, its great in theory, but it will never really work. I mean communism is a case of the right idea but the wrong species.

 

Frank Zappa said it best "Communism will never work because people like to own stuff" 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't arguing that rainforest tribes prove that communism works. I was pointing out that there exist societies which are much more different from ours than communist ones, so the "society can't be changed" argument is a bit daft. A quick flick through a history book proves that societies change a fuck of a lot. And they don't have a kind of natural state that they return to. Where I'm sitting typing, it was communist 20 years ago, fascist 70 years ago, a democracy 80 years ago, an absolute monarchy 100 years ago, and today it's a liberal democracy.

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