Ancient Mysteries: Machu Picchu

[Mr Logic]

Ancient Mysteries

 

#1: Machu Picchu

 

The academic consensus dates early construction of Machu Picchu to around 1430 AD and has the inhabitants dying from small pox – “Smallpox devastated the Machu Picchu before the conqueror of the Inca, the Spaniard Francisco Pizarro, arrived.” – despite the fact  that smallpox was usually brought with the Europeans. Of course  Cortéz had been busy conquering the Aztec some 12 years earlier, so it’s not an impossible scenario, albeit some 2600 miles distant. I don’t have too much issue with what caused the death/disappearance of the the inhabitants of Machu Picchu but rather the supposed date for construction.

 

I tend to be very wary of academic consensus, after all Wikipedia is composed almost entirely of such information. It’s the safe option, one that requires little research. Just look up two or three different reference works and if they all agree - copy them. Unfortunately that is probably the same method the reference sources used to get their ‘facts’ in the first place. Another thing to note with academic consensus is that it can be a very dangerous thing to come up with alternative theories, so many ‘experts’ are going to look stupid if some new theory proves correct, character assassinations can be carried out with vicious swiftness.

 

Jose de Acosta was a theologian, a Jesuit missionary, and a scholar. Unlike many of his contemporaries he had a genuine interest in other cultures and rather than rape, pillage and murder the natives of a new region he set about trying to find out as much about them as he could. His Natural and Moral History of the Indies 1590 is a wealthy repository of knowledge. One thing of note is that all the indigenous peoples of Sth America had a ‘flood myth’, that a deluge was visited upon the world. Now I mention this as a means of demonstrating that South America had people dating into antiquity, assuming we accept that the ‘flood myth’ of the bible was from antiquity and referred to the same event, and also that these stories existed in their culture prior to the invasion of European influences.

 

European explorers, and indeed the people of Europe generally, referred to indigenous peoples as savages. They were never credited with any abilities, always deemed to be ignorant – little better than animals. It must have made the Europeans of that age feel better about themselves. They were superior. As a result of this attitude whenever anything was discovered that would imply skill or knowledge on the part of these ‘savages’ one had to develop a ‘blind spot’ – it had to be ignored as it didn’t fit with the accepted picture.

 

So, back to Machu Picchu, construction started around 1430 and less than 100 years later it was empty and abandoned. Francisco Pizarro was rampaging around the region beheading Inca chiefs and gathering up gold by the shipload though he never actually discovered Machu Picchu. The construction appears to have three distinct phases. The most recent is rebuilding work following an earthquake. Possibly earlier quakes resulted in earlier rebuildings accounting for stage 2, or perhaps another people lived in the city between the mid 1500’s and 1911 when Hiram Bingham was led to the area.

Phase 1 building though, the original stonework, is amazing for its craftsmanship and construction techniques. It is odd that the oldest layers of Machu Picchu are the most refined and have stood the test of time even better than phase 2 rebuilding. After all these people were just savages. Construction techniques improve over time, don’t they?

 

There is one stone, among many similar, that measures 12’ x 5’ x 5’, the average density of granite is 2.65g/cm³ making the block weigh about 22 tonnes. Cut with such precision, with angled joints, and the surrounding stones cut to match, butting so closely no gap is apparent. Walls built in such a fashion tend to increase in strength during mild quakes, they vibrate in to each other, attempting to become tighter. They are engineered to an infinitely higher standard than any subsequent building work.

 

There are some dissenting voices, to me they are the voice of reason in a babble of confusion. Some put the more likely dates of construction at around 2500 BC. But of course that’s clearly insane, if the people of the region were ignorant savages in the 1500’s they must have been positive Neanderthals way back in 2500 BC!

 

However there are some other buildings in the world reputedly built around this period. The Great Pyramids, and they also have precision built stonework of immense size. So maybe it is not so mad an idea after all. It doesn’t fit with academic consensus though but then neither does the relief carvings of toxodon in Basalt stone columns in Tiahuanaco, an animal that became extinct around 12000 BC.

 

 

http://www.docbert.org/MP/    (1.5 Gigapixel, zoom right in on various places for examples of original stonework. Mortarless joints, very smooth finish as example below.)

 

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vv172u.jpg

Constructed by ignorant savages in 1430?

 

 

[Rob W]

It looks like a big dry stone wall TBH - and some of them have been around for centuries

[Northerngimp]

Civilisations rise and fall, its part of life. 

 

Its highly possible this was built way before the Inca occupied it. 

[Haz]

All very interesting. But are you implying anything in all of this?

 

All it demonstrates is that we have an increasingly shallow view of ancient cultures and what they were capable of achieving.  The pre coumbian cultures had a fascinating command of comological movement (which was admittedly wrapped up in astrology) but this does not mean they were in possession of information unknown to the rest of the later world.

[Disco]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

[Haz]

It'll be full of tourists trying to get a cigarette paper between the stones.

[Mowen]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Make sure you climb the mountain behind it to clarify. You won't regret it.

[Disco]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Make sure you climb the mountain behind it to clarify. You won't regret it.

 

Huayna Picchu ?

[Mowen]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Make sure you climb the mountain behind it to clarify. You won't regret it.

 

Huayna Picchu ?

 

Think so. Only 400 a day allowed to climb it so get your name down straight away. It's the one in all the 'postcard' pictures, hard work but well, well worth it.

[Mr Logic]

All very interesting. But are you implying anything in all of this?

 

All it demonstrates is that we have an increasingly shallow view of ancient cultures and what they were capable of achieving.  The pre coumbian cultures had a fascinating command of comological movement (which was admittedly wrapped up in astrology) but this does not mean they were in possession of information unknown to the rest of the later world.

 

It does demonstrate we had a shallow view of ancient cultures, but didn't the piece demonstrate anything else to you? Because the implication throughout the whole post was actually about incorrect information taken as fact and repeated everywhere. Google Machu Picchu and you'll find, if they mention it at all, they all say some time in the 1400's with 1430 being the most popular. Nowhere is there a reference to data that backs this up. Nor does it mention how anyone knew that Machu Picchu was abandoned before Pizarro started destroying Inca culture. (Pizarro and his cronies never found it so they weren't the ones to report it was empty.)

 

Why is there such a comfort-zone in accepting certain stories about our past, is it still a hangover to that blind spot I mentioned in the OP? Does it make our lives seem somehow better, more advanced, if we can make ancient cultures out to be simple and fleeting? Or is it that once a piece of data gets accepted as fact, sometimes merely by repeating it enough, that there is a fear about saying we could have been wrong?

 

This fascinates me though I realise I'm in the minority. You mention the pre-Colombian cultures knowledge of cosmology, and I would add that the Sumerians and Egyptians also seemed to have a vast knowledge of the heavens. In some examples it would seem they must have studied the skies for centuries to know when certain stars would make their reappearance. All before the invention of lenses and telescopes. I don't know if they had knowledge unknown to the rest of the world, though it would seem at some time in their histories they certainly knew far more about the heavens than the middle-age Europeans. There rises another point, it's generally accepted technology and skill advance commensurate with time. But it would seem that there was a period of decline in both construction techniques and cosmological knowledge in two vastly distant cultures. (The Great Pyramids are far superior in construction to any of the later 'copies')

 

Northern Gimp raises an interesting point btw, although I have no reference source to hand, there is a theory that the Incans merely occupied already ancient cities. This would certainly explain the differences between phase 1 and phase 2 constructions and lend some weight to the antiquity date of 2500 BC mooted elsewhere.

 

 

 

And RobW, can you seriously see no difference between the upper and lower section of the picture posted? Or was that just a flippant response because you have no interest in the subject?

[indi]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Have you booked your trek yet?

 

[80]

There rises another point, it's generally accepted technology and skill advance commensurate with time.

 

I don't know if you mean 'by everybody' when you say 'generally', but you'd be wrong if you did - assuming you don't mean that, it's just the case that those who do accept it are wrong in doing so, basically. See the Japanese relationship with gunpowder - widespread engagement, followed by erasal from common memory; in that instance it was politically-motivated.

[indi]

The Incas didn't "disappear" by the way, their culture may have been largely destroyed by the Spanish, but there are still Quechuan people in Peru and elsewhere. There are also other Incan cities (eg Choquequirao) and most of the local people I spoke to believe that there's at least one more Incan city that's not been rediscovered and that the Incas that that left Machu Picchu went there, as it was more remote and therefore safer from the Spanish.

[Disco]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Have you booked your trek yet?

 

 

Think we're just going to do the day thing getting the train there then get up early doors to get in the 400 and spend all day there rather than 4 day (or whatever it is) walking thing - sounds too much like hard work.

[Mr Logic]

There rises another point, it's generally accepted technology and skill advance commensurate with time.

 

I don't know if you mean 'by everybody' when you say 'generally', but you'd be wrong if you did - assuming you don't mean that, it's just the case that those who do accept it are wrong in doing so, basically. See the Japanese relationship with gunpowder - widespread engagement, followed by erasal from common memory; in that instance it was politically-motivated.

 

Perhaps I should have said 'in general' rather than 'it's generally accepted'. Finding exceptions to the rule is often possible but that doesn't change the larger pattern, I doubt you'd find many to argue that technology doesn't improve over time.

[indi]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Have you booked your trek yet?

 

 

Think we're just going to do the day thing getting the train there then get up early doors to get in the 400 and spend all day there rather than 4 day (or whatever it is) walking thing - sounds too much like hard work.

 

Aww man, seriously!?! If you can, you should, it'll be the best thing you do on your whole trip.

[Haz]

I don't mean to be flippant either. as long as you confine your wonder to the possibilty that humans were a lot cleverer in ancient times, than we give them credit for, rather than suggesting something preposterous, then these edifices remain all the more fascinating.

 

Personally I have always regarded Egyptian culture to be more highly advanced than the precolumbian states but I know it is all the product of human ingenuity.  Unfortunately, much of the writing was lost and discoveries had to be 'rediscovered'.  Who knows where we would be now without the dark ages and an earlier 'Enlightenment'.

[madras]

I don't mean to be flippant either. as long as you confine your wonder to the possibilty that humans were a lot cleverer in ancient times, than we give them credit for, rather than suggesting something preposterous, then these edifices remain all the more fascinating.

 

Personally I have always regarded Egyptian culture to be more highly advanced than the precolumbian states but I know it is all the product of human ingenuity.  Unfortunately, much of the writing was lost and discoveries had to be 'rediscovered'.  Who knows where we would be now without the dark ages and an earlier 'Enlightenment'.

are you right to call it "enlightenment" based on their architecture and some social structure when they were still sacrificing humans by the bus load (if they were advanced enough to have buses).

[Guest kockoutned]

all the indigenous peoples of Sth America had a ‘flood myth’, that a deluge was visited upon the world. Now I mention this as a means of demonstrating that South America had people dating into antiquity, assuming we accept that the ‘flood myth’ of the bible was from antiquity and referred to the same event

 

Why would you assume this? It's seems hardly likely given that even the world's most disparate cultures also have flood myths. You would have to go back more than 10,000 years in human consciousness for it to be the same event. Is there a shred of evidence to support this given that floods are such a common occurence generally?

[Rob W]

I think they were clever in ancient times - I'd be bloody useless at designing a cathedral with CAD and as for painting horses etc as at Lascaux count me out

 

I just don't do the "ancient mysteries" routine - it seems to imply the need for mysterious gods/aliens/whatever when people are damn ingenious

[Mr Logic]

all the indigenous peoples of Sth America had a ‘flood myth’, that a deluge was visited upon the world. Now I mention this as a means of demonstrating that South America had people dating into antiquity, assuming we accept that the ‘flood myth’ of the bible was from antiquity and referred to the same event

 

Why would you assume this? It's seems hardly likely given that even the world's most disparate cultures also have flood myths. You would have to go back more than 10,000 years in human consciousness for it to be the same event. Is there a shred of evidence to support this given that floods are such a common occurence generally?

 

Floods are a common enough occurence, and one could imagine the memory of one would last in relation to its severity. That a little flood would be forgotten in a short time, a larger one be remembered longer. For one to last 1000's of years in the retelling and for the story to be basically the same one, throughout all those disparate cultures, leads me to surmise that they all experienced and/or witnessed the same event.

 

..that in it perished all races of men and created things insomuch that the waters rose above the mountain peaks. No living thing survived except a man and a woman who remained in a box and, when the waters began to subside, the wind carried them to land..  

 

That from local indian legend, and note also the similarity to Noah in the survivors in a box. Then from the Epic of Gilgamesh you get a detailed account of building a boat to survive the flood, it's without doubt the story of Noah but with different characters.

 

From the Popal Vuh.. ..and so a flood was brought about by the Heart of Heaven, a great flood was formed which fell on the heads of..  .. the face of the earth as darkened and black rain fell by day and by night.. the figures upon the earth were destroyed..  There too, though, there are survivors by some fortuitous circumstance that live to repopulate and tell the tale.

 

In the far south, a Yamana legend from Tierra del Fuego.. ..the moon woman caused the flood. at the time of the great upheaval the moon was filled with hatred towards humans.. at that time everyone drowned with the exception of a few who reached the five mountain peaks that the water did not cover..

 

Up north, the Inuit of Alaska tell of a terrible flood and earthquake which came so rapidly over the face of the earth that only a few in canoes escaped to the tops of the highest mountains..

 

And from China, '..the sun, moon and stars changed their position and the earth was broken, waters rushed upwards with violence and overflowed the earth'

 

In Laos and Northern Thailand.. .. a great flood devasted the whole earth, but three great men built a raft, on top of which they made a small house, and embarked with a number of women and children. In this way they and their descendants survived the deluge.

 

And there are dozens of others from every corner of the earth. The Australian aborigine, the Japanese and Africans. Greeks, Samoans and Hawaiins. Very common theme running through all their stories.

 

 

[Mr Logic]

I think they were clever in ancient times - I'd be bloody useless at designing a cathedral with CAD and as for painting horses etc as at Lascaux count me out

 

I just don't do the "ancient mysteries" routine - it seems to imply the need for mysterious gods/aliens/whatever when people are damn ingenious

 

The only mystery I was referring to Rob was the date of construction. Apologies for misleading you, I could have chosen a better title for sure.

[safc]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Have you booked your trek yet?

 

 

Think we're just going to do the day thing getting the train there then get up early doors to get in the 400 and spend all day there rather than 4 day (or whatever it is) walking thing - sounds too much like hard work.

 

Aww man, seriously!?! If you can, you should, it'll be the best thing you do on your whole trip.

 

Have you done it, indi?  I'm hoping to be in Peru around December/January period.  Still havn't decided wether to do the one day thing, or the whole trek, is there a massive difference in the experience?

[Guest kockoutned]

Floods are a common enough occurence, and one could imagine the memory of one would last in relation to its severity. That a little flood would be forgotten in a short time, a larger one be remembered longer. For one to last 1000's of years in the retelling and for the story to be basically the same one, throughout all those disparate cultures, leads me to surmise that they all experienced and/or witnessed the same event.

 

Either that or early Christian missionaries spread the biblical legend before there were any serious studies of native folklore.

 

[indi]

I'll clarify it when I'm over there in September/October for you.

 

Have you booked your trek yet?

 

 

Think we're just going to do the day thing getting the train there then get up early doors to get in the 400 and spend all day there rather than 4 day (or whatever it is) walking thing - sounds too much like hard work.

 

Aww man, seriously!?! If you can, you should, it'll be the best thing you do on your whole trip.

 

Have you done it, indi?  I'm hoping to be in Peru around December/January period.  Still havn't decided wether to do the one day thing, or the whole trek, is there a massive difference in the experience?

 

Yeah, and I'd definitely say the longer the trek the better. We did a nine-day one taking in Choquequiro (See here: http://www.apus-peru.com/greatruins_realadv.htm) and the every day of the trek was equally as amazing as Machu Picchu, if not better. I'd really recommend that trekking company, they're excellent.

 

They let 1000 (it might be more, have forgotten the exact number) people onto the Inca Trail each day, so they all end up walking in a big group and camping in huge sites each night, whereas on a couple of occasions we camped entirely on our own and saw maybe a handful of people during the day. We basically had Choquequiro to ourselves as you can only get there by foot, also our guides were excellent, not only did they tell us stuff that the others didn't seem to know about, we never left any litter and they would often pick up other people's as well. During the rest of my trip I met a load of people who'd taken various routes to Machu Picchu, all of them had enjoyed it, but you could tell that we'd pissed all over their chips when we told them about what we'd done.

 

Do a proper trek man, you won't regret it.

 

One thing to think about is that I'm pretty sure Machu Picchu is closed for a month either in December or January, so it might be worth finding out before you plan your itinerary.