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Here's a thorough and dispassionate debate, bulivye.


Neil
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Without out wanting to start on a whole other issue - it's beyond me how people can still believe in a God when devastation like this happens time and again.

 

Worth keeping it separate from the Haiti thread but it merits discussion. What think you?

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

In short, religion is for stupid people who doesn't want to face reality on a day to day basis.

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

In short, religion is for stupid people who doesn't want to face reality on a day to day basis.

A bit harsh mate, they aren't stupid. Just because they believe something different to us.

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

In short, religion is for stupid people who doesn't want to face reality on a day to day basis.

A bit harsh mate, they aren't stupid. Just because they believe something different to us.

 

I know I'm stereotyping, but the most avid religious people really are fucking dim. Try talking to them about anything bar religion, you'll be amazed.

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A few things:

 

Have a look at the Irenean (sic?) and Augustinian theodicies, both are half-decent (note: not good) attempts to justify the existence of God in spite of 'evil in the world' (revolving either around the idea that world is a 'vale of soul-making (that we must bridge the epistemic distance created between us and God due to the fall (or fail LOL) or that evil is as a result of free will (which is better than no evil).

 

Another thing, the attributes assigned to God (as a 'most powerful' being) are somewhat contradictory; immanence and benevolence working in tandem would usually lead one to think that God would intervene as to prevent evil (through his most excellently good nature), however this in itself is problematic; as if God were ever to intervene (as some biblical miracles document) it does seem to reflect badly upon him, showing him either to be partisan (favouring the Jews, aren't 'all people' his?) or showing his actions to be somewhat arbitrary (allows water to change to wine, but doesn't stop the Holocaust LOLWUT). Also, if God were to intervene it implies that creation as an act in itself was imperfect (we're told it isn't) as surely an omniscient God would foresee all the 'bad things' in the world and correct them before they were ever to happen, or create without the potential for such things to happen (note that potential for evil (or the fall) is supposedly a byproduct of free-will).

 

LOVELY QUESTION: Does God command what is good, or is it good because God commands it? (reflect upon the nature of God and perhaps the possibility for sadism on behalf of God if the latter is correct, by troubling yourself with the infamous Euthyphro dilemma). I'm not going to explore this, but will let you, it's quite interesting.

 

My favourite bit: God as a concept does not make sense, 'most just' is an attribute ascribed to God, yet by definition such a normative concept has no intrinsic maximum, how can one quantify whether some or such action is 'more just' than another 'just' action, let alone that the actions of one person or being are more just than those of any other being or person? The point of this is, this 'God' character is merely a collection of meaningless properties, 'most just' or 'most loving' is the same as saying 'green hats sleep furiously', grammatically correct, but with no meaningful function, it's an incoherent expression. God is a set of definitions, some of which are arguably contradictory (immanence and omniscience),  but others which are simply incoherent and empty (most just or most loving) and as such, the concept of God in itself is incoherent, 'God' does not make sense. (By God I refer to the God of scripture, a philosophical God is viable, but the characteristics and properties of such a thing are entirely removed from that which could be reconcilable with religious scripture and proposing such a God for the causes of Islam or Christianity would do nothing but make me think you are a person being pushed into a corner, without any just reason for belief). Also, think about how being 'beyond space and time' yet 'existing' is also a contradiction in terms, how the fuck can anyone think of that shit to make sense, WUT?

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Yeah but for believers anytime anything bad happens, it's not God being a dick, it's a "test". Which is convenient.

 

No, the best is how they can tell you why you're going to hell and what will happen to you there (as though they understand the workings of 'God') yet then you ask perhaps why God intervened supposedly at certain times yet not at others 'God works in ways we cannot begin to understand, how dare you think you can begin to conceive of his motives/plans etc.'. Lolz.

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Guest Stephen927

Live and let live. I don't see why anybody has to be 'stupid' or 'dim' because they believe in something you don't. Grow up mate.

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Guest toonlass

I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

In short, religion is for stupid people who doesn't want to face reality on a day to day basis.

A bit harsh mate, they aren't stupid. Just because they believe something different to us.

 

I know I'm stereotyping, but the most avid religious people really are fucking dim. Try talking to them about anything bar religion, you'll be amazed.

 

Have you ever had a conversation with a ranting atheist?

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Guest lankybellwipe

Haz................... You have the Mic!!

 

 

Niel.................. Thanks a lot buddy!!  :facepalm:

 

Best to keep it to one thread.  :pow:

 

I hope you're happy chappy!  :pow:

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

In short, religion is for stupid people who doesn't want to face reality on a day to day basis.

A bit harsh mate, they aren't stupid. Just because they believe something different to us.

 

I know I'm stereotyping, but the most avid religious people really are fucking dim. Try talking to them about anything bar religion, you'll be amazed.

 

Have you ever had a conversation with a ranting atheist?

 

Yes, but they're not ranting about a book less believable than Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

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Live and let live. I don't see why anybody has to be 'stupid' or 'dim' because they believe in something you don't. Grow up mate.

 

I'm not saying they're stupid because they're religious people. Just that it's fucking horrid trying to have conversations with these people in a normal fashion about normal things. Most of my family are religious people and most of my summers as a kid has been spent with said people and their friends. I'm traumatized, man. You can't discuss anything logical with them, and their eyes look so empty, like those of a shark. Is there anyone in there? Who knows?

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Guest toonlass

Live and let live. I don't see why anybody has to be 'stupid' or 'dim' because they believe in something you don't. Grow up mate.

 

I'm not saying they're stupid because they're religious people. Just that it's fucking horrid trying to have conversations with these people in a normal fashion about normal things. Most of my family are religious people and most of my summers as a kid has been spent with said people and their friends. I'm traumatized, man. You can't discuss anything logical with them, and their eyes look so empty, like those of a shark. Is there anyone in there? Who knows?

 

Lets tar all people with a faith in God with the same brush then eh?

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I don't agree with it, or believe there is a 'god' but i think it's nice for people who do believe, you know, it gives them a kind of hope, albeit false, for a next life or whatever in a wonderful place like heaven. Fair do's to them and it's nice that they can have this hope and belief about something that, lets face it, isn't real.

 

In short, it makes people happy.

 

Spot on. :thup:

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