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Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism

 

 

Pope Benedict's personal preacher has compared criticism of the pontiff and Church over child abuse to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

 

The Rev Raniero Cantalamessa was speaking at Good Friday prayers in St Peter's Basilica, attended by the Pope.

 

In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".

 

His comments angered Jewish groups and those representing abuse victims.

 

Father Cantalamessa said Jews throughout history had been the victims of "collective violence" and drew a comparison with recent attacks on the Roman Catholic Church.

 

He read the congregation part of a letter from a Jewish friend who said he was "following with disgust the violent and concentric attacks against the Church, the Pope...

 

"The use of stereotypes, the shifting of personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the most shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," he quoted from the letter.

 

Father Cantalamessa, the preacher to the papal household, is the only person allowed to preach to the Pope.

 

The BBC's David Willey, in Rome, says the comments show the Church is continuing to defend itself rigorously and outspokenly against accusations of having systematically covered up cases of sexual abuse by priests in recent decades.

 

Vatican spokesman the Rev Federico Lombardi later contacted the Associated Press news agency to say Father Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official.

 

He said such a comparison could "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic Church".

 

 

 

But Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, described the remarks as offensive and repulsive.

 

"So far I haven't seen St Peter's burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests," he said.

 

"I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims."

 

Peter Isely, spokesman for the US victim support group Snap, said the sermon had been "reckless and irresponsible".

 

He said: "They're sitting in the papal palace, they're experiencing a little discomfort, and they're going to compare themselves to being rounded up or lined up and sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz?

 

"You cannot be serious."

 

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, of the American Jewish Committee, called Father Cantalamessa's comments "an unfortunate use of language".

 

"The collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of six million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," he said.

 

Pope accused

 

The Roman Catholic Church has been embroiled in fresh allegations of child sex abuse by priests, most recently in Germany.

 

The Pope has been accused of failing to take action against a suspected abuser during his tenure as archbishop of Munich - a claim the Vatican strongly denies.

 

Critics also say that when he was head of the Vatican office dealing with sex abuse, he did not act against a US priest who is thought to have abused some 200 deaf boys.

 

Thousands of pilgrims are in Rome for the Easter rituals.

 

Following the service at St Peter's Basilica, the Pope went to Rome's Colosseum for the Way of the Cross procession commemorating Christ's crucifixion.

 

During the procession, the Pope spoke briefly about the evening's religious observances before blessing the crowd, prompting cheers and some shouts of "Long live the Pope".

 

On Saturday, he is to lead an Easter vigil service in St Peter's and on Sunday he is due to deliver his traditional Urbi et Orbi - to the city and the world - message and blessing.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8601084.stm

 

:doh:

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Oh fuck off. If religios really wanted to help make the world a better place then they would give away their billions, doesn't the catholic church have enough money in reserves to wipe out 3rd world debt?

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Oh fuck off. If religios really wanted to help make the world a better place then they would give away their billions, doesn't the catholic church have enough money in reserves to wipe out 3rd world debt?

 

Covering stuff up and paying off families costs money you know.

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The sooner religions become charities and receive no state funding or backing, or are no longer considerations in elections or leadership contests or taught as law/a way of life in schools the better.

 

Ignorant, deluded idiots

yip on the first part. the second was a tad full of spite.
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The sooner religions become charities and receive no state funding or backing, or are no longer considerations in elections or leadership contests or taught as law/a way of life in schools the better.

 

Ignorant, deluded idiots

yip on the first part. the second was a tad full of spite.

 

Yeah.. but I'm sick of it being such a massive part of my life because of the role it plays every f**king place! Why people wont just accept that some guy in some white place somewhere didnt make stuff, and that a big red guy with horns doesnt live in a really hot place underground (or any other equivalent)?! It just really 'grinds my gears' - That level of ignorance, of blind......nothing, its not even faith, is just absurd!

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Guest toonlass

I am disgusted at the Pope's reaction to this but there is no need to be insulting man. There are plenty of atheists who are nasty cunts too. I find some atheists' views of people with a faith abhorant too, but I don't believe that any one athiest's point of view is that of all of them. 

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He's right about "the use of stereotypes, the shifting of personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt". That is the way the predatory media is about everything though. Hardly singling out the Catholic Church. The Jewish comparison is more than unfortunate, it is rather idiotic in fact, but trust the same predatory media to focus on that foolish comparison  rather than the point that was made.

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He's right about "the use of stereotypes, the shifting of personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt". That is the way the predatory media is about everything though. Hardly singling out the Catholic Church. The Jewish comparison is more than unfortunate, it is rather idiotic in fact, but just the same predatory media to focus on that foolish comparison thatn the point that was made.

 

I rarely pass up the opportunity to slag off the media, but I'm sorry that's just bollocks. The scale of the abuse and the continuing efforts of the Catholic Church to cover up the actions of some of it's members - something that goes right to the top levels of that organisation - makes it complicit in that abuse and it does hold a collective guilt and therefore also a collective responsibility for what has gone on. For them to whine about being held responsible for the actions of some individuals is pathetic, they involved themselves as an organisation when they chose to protect those individuals by systematically covering up what they had done. It's like saying the National Socialist Party of Germany was unfairly tainted by the actions of a few bad eggs during the 30s and 40s, it's total bullshit and it just adds yet more insult to the injuries suffered by the victims of this abuse. The Catholic Church has been so corrupt for such a long time that it believes it's own bullshit and is deluding itself that it is the victim rather than the aggressor in this, it isn't, any rational human being can see that as glaringly obvious, unfortunately the Catholic Church is not made up of rational human beings, by definition.

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The Catholic Church is nothing like the Nazi party, by definition because it is not systematically abusing the children. Like anyone would be, I am disgusted by the coverups, but I can understand why it was done. They want to protect the image of a holy institution however misguided this may be. This kind of behavior is seen in almost any bureaucracy, which is what the modern Catholic church has become. The Church needs to look at why this is happening instead of looking to hide it, but to claim that the entire church is responsible for the initial devious act of one man (which is what the abuse is, it's not as though the church is lining up boys to be touched) is ludicrous, imo.

 

Also, the idea that no religious man can be rational is simply ridiculous and smacks of prejudice, tbh.

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Guest toonlass

The Catholic Church is nothing like the Nazi party, by definition because it is not systematically abusing the children. Like anyone would be, I am disgusted by the coverups, but I can understand why it was done. They want to protect the image of a holy institution however misguided this may be. This kind of behavior is seen in almost any bureaucracy, which is what the modern Catholic church has become. The Church needs to look at why this is happening instead of looking to hide it, but to claim that the entire church is responsible for the initial devious act of one man (which is what the abuse is, it's not as though the church is lining up boys to be touched) is ludicrous, imo.

 

Also, the idea that no religious man can be rational is simply ridiculous and smacks of prejudice, tbh.

 

some parts of the Catholic Church were systematically abusing children and women too. It's about time that the pope stood up and apologised unequivocally for the abuses that ANYONE has endured by people who hid behind the name of religion and the Catholic Church.

 

However to tar everyone who believes in God or Jesus Christ with the same brush is unfair.

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In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".

 

That's right popey, the Jews were blamed in Nazi Germany for being responsible for the shit economy, colluding with 'the enemy', rumoured to eat children etc and pursecuted, if they were lucky, or exterminated if they were not.  However the Catholic Church have been found to have been covering up the systematic buggering of young children, the very act which should surely be abhorent to thier 'God', and lead to excommunication followed by legal prosecution. Not really comparable is it as one is a group that were demonised for nothing more than their beliefs and being a soft target and the other is a bunch of hypocrites covering up a crime.

 

Is this not the same Catholic Church that are thought to (at best) have turned a blind eye to the Nazis, an organisation that this current pope was involved with at the time.  Oh but he was 'only following orders' wasn't he.....

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In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".

 

That's right popey, the Jews were blamed in Nazi Germany for being responsible for the shit economy, colluding with 'the enemy', rumoured to eat children etc and pursecuted, if they were lucky, or exterminated if they were not.  However the Catholic Church have been found to have been covering up the systematic buggering of young children, the very act which should surely be abhorent to thier 'God', and lead to excommunication followed by legal prosecution. Not really comparable is it as one is a group that were demonised for nothing more than their beliefs and being a soft target and the other is a bunch of hypocrites covering up a crime.

 

Is this not the same Catholic Church that are thought to (at best) have turned a blind eye to the Nazis, an organisation that this current pope was involved with at the time.  Oh but he was 'only following orders' wasn't he.....

Yeah, you notice how every old man who was follwing orders under the Nazi's is currently being hunted down, this fucking prick isn't.

 

Though I don't know the reasons why people are taking old men up into courts rooms and in the media spot light, for fucks sake let go of it, back then it was kill or be killed, I know what I would of done. How about you go for ever single surviving soldier that fought for the Nazi's?, no thought fucking not.

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In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".

 

That's right popey, the Jews were blamed in Nazi Germany for being responsible for the s*** economy, colluding with 'the enemy', rumoured to eat children etc and pursecuted, if they were lucky, or exterminated if they were not.  However the Catholic Church have been found to have been covering up the systematic buggering of young children, the very act which should surely be abhorent to thier 'God', and lead to excommunication followed by legal prosecution. Not really comparable is it as one is a group that were demonised for nothing more than their beliefs and being a soft target and the other is a bunch of hypocrites covering up a crime.

 

, an organisation that this current pope was involved with at the time.  Oh but he was 'only following orders' wasn't he.....

 

 

 

 

:kasper: :kasper: :kasper:

 

 

He was a Nazi ?

 

How on earth did he become the Pope.

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In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism".

 

That's right popey, the Jews were blamed in Nazi Germany for being responsible for the s*** economy, colluding with 'the enemy', rumoured to eat children etc and pursecuted, if they were lucky, or exterminated if they were not.  However the Catholic Church have been found to have been covering up the systematic buggering of young children, the very act which should surely be abhorent to thier 'God', and lead to excommunication followed by legal prosecution. Not really comparable is it as one is a group that were demonised for nothing more than their beliefs and being a soft target and the other is a bunch of hypocrites covering up a crime.

 

, an organisation that this current pope was involved with at the time.  Oh but he was 'only following orders' wasn't he.....

 

 

 

 

:kasper: :kasper: :kasper:

 

 

He was a Nazi ?

 

How on earth did he become the Pope.

 

He was in the Hitler Youth, if I remember right.

 

I'm pretty sure that was the main reason he got the job.

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The Catholic Church is nothing like the Nazi party, by definition because it is not systematically abusing the children. Like anyone would be, I am disgusted by the coverups, but I can understand why it was done. They want to protect the image of a holy institution however misguided this may be. This kind of behavior is seen in almost any bureaucracy, which is what the modern Catholic church has become. The Church needs to look at why this is happening instead of looking to hide it, but to claim that the entire church is responsible for the initial devious act of one man (which is what the abuse is, it's not as though the church is lining up boys to be touched) is ludicrous, imo.

 

Also, the idea that no religious man can be rational is simply ridiculous and smacks of prejudice, tbh.

 

I didn't compare the Catholic Church and the Nazi Party, I said that to deny that it as an organisation held any responsibility for the actions of a significant number of its members and the way it as an organisation systematically covered up their actions, was as ridiculous as to say that the Nazi party held no responsibility for the actions of it's members. I was comparing the ridiculousness of the claims not the subjects of them.

 

I also did not say that it was systematically abusing children, just that the abuse was on a large scale, which it was and probably still is. The thing I claimed was systematic was the covering up of the abuse, which is undeniable. For an organisation to be able to deny any culpability for the actions of it's members - especially when those members were only able to do what they did because of their membership of that organisation and the position of trust and power it gave them over their victims - then it has to have been initially unaware of what was happening, it needs to have been open about what happened when it was discovered, it needs to have distanced itself from those who committed the acts when it found out and it needs to have put in place measures to ensure that the same thing does not happen in future.

 

Has the Catholic Church done any of that? Has it fuck. In every single case it has done the exact opposite and this is where it became involved and therefore culpable as an organisation. If members of an organisation abuse their position within that organisation and the organisation reacts quickly and in an appropriate manner, then that organisation should not share their culpability. If the organisation is a little slow to react or perhaps even initially tries to cover it up before coming clean largely of it's own volition, then you could argue that was a mistake or the result of bureaucracy and let them off with a slap on the wrist and a commitment to behave differently in future. However, if an organisation routinely and systematically covers-up the large-scale criminal actions of it's members, protects them from prosecution, does nothing to prevent the same thing happening again - even by the same individuals - and vehemently denies what has happened, doing all it can to prevent the perpetrators being brought to justice and thereby prolonging the pain of the victims for years and years, then that organisation is beyond corrupt and guilty as hell.

 

The only ludicrous thing in this conversation is the church's (and your) attempt to claim that it holds no responsibility for it's own actions, that's just about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

 

Again, I did not say that "no religious man can be rational", I said that the Catholic Church (meaning the organisation, not it's followers) is not made up of rational people and it isn't. Religion is not rational, I'd have thought that religious people, at least those who are genuinely comfortable with their religion, would not have had a problem admitting that. Religion is all about faith, faith is by definition not rational, it is a believe in something that cannot be proven. I thought that was the whole point of religion; that you give yourself to god unconditionally, without him having to prove anything - at least until after you've already done that. There's a shit load of stories in each of the religious texts emphasising the huge importance of that principle. Everyone - religious, or not -  has elements of their character that aren't rational, there's nothing wrong with that, it's human nature, but to give your whole life over to something irrational in the way that members of the (organisation of the) Catholic Church have done suggests that for those people an irrational belief is the dominant factor of their personality and they are therefore not rational human beings. I did not say that they were incapable of behaving rationally - even a lunatic can talk sense on occasion - and I certainly didn't say that all religious people were incapable of being rational as you have claimed.

 

Your tactic seems to be not to argue against what I've actually said, but to misrepresent what I've said and then argue against that, what's the point in that? It's a waste of both our time.

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Guest toonlass

I find some atheists' views of people with a faith abhorant too

 

Abhorrent? Are you kidding? If you're looked down upon for believing in unicorns then maybe it's not all the other person's fault, right?

 

Yes, abhorant! It's nobody else's business what I believe in, I don't try and force my views on anyone, but some atheists seem to think they have the right to ridicule me for my faith.

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I find some atheists' views of people with a faith abhorant too

 

Abhorrent? Are you kidding? If you're looked down upon for believing in unicorns then maybe it's not all the other person's fault, right?

 

Yes, abhorant! It's nobody else's business what I believe in, I don't try and force my views on anyone, but some atheists seem to think they have the right to ridicule me for my faith.

 

If I believed with 100% conviction I was Elvis would it be ok to ridicule me?

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