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Scottish Independence - No Wins!


Northerngimp
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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

 

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

 

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?

We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What fucked us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.

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Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

 

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

 

Whisky and haggis farming

 

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

 

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.

 

Would the scots not then tax the oil companies appropraitely ?

 

Yeah, but there's more to live than taxes. Every major "Scottish" company will have a major decision to make about whether to remain British, or become Scottish and there'd be a significant risk in moving from one of the world's largest economies to a brand new country which would be starting from scratch. I don't think many will see that as being in their business interests and most will stay British and pay the majority of their taxes to the UK.

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

 

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?

We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What f***ed us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.

 

So where has all this industry gone?  Has the Irish gov had to put taxes up to make up for the short fall in the economy?

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If they want to be Independent and a majority vote for it then it should happen, regardless of how the rest of the UK feels about it IMO.

 

I totally agree and i dont think anyone disagrees...I think everyone is just wondering how they will fund and maintain what they already have with only a population of 5 mil.

Well Ireland was doing fine with under 4 million(the recession is simply the result of bad management). Its possible tbh.

 

IMO the biggest downside in all of this is the Tory's will probably landslide every election :lol:

 

Ireland, was it not reckless borrowing to inflate an economy that was never there in the first place, hence why all the money has vansihed??

 

 

No, the building economy, software, tourism etc were great. We just went to far and put nothing aside for a rainy day.

 

So where did all the money come from to suddenly start a massive building program?

We have a low corporation tax so there's a lot foreign companies here. Obviously some borrowing was required and we'd have been fine if people during the boom had been more careful with spending etc. What f***ed us up was people beeing able to take out a 110% + mortgage or mortgage top ups to afford a foreign holiday and/or new car. If we had better regulation of internal affairs we'd not be in this mess.

 

So where has all this industry gone?  Has the Irish gov had to put taxes up to make up for the short fall in the economy?

The building industry collapsed because people started undercutting prices and were doing the job for less than they could afford and the arse fell out of it. Taxes have gone up alright.

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The Money Fairy, what are you stupid or something?

 

Stupid me aye.

 

But seriously, they'll have to have some serious reform if they think they can give all the pubilc "free" services.

 

Knew you'd get chippy at that :lol: I agree with you. Even 'if' they got all the oil and it all went smooth as butter re: taxation, it wouldn't cover all the things they get now, let alone the extra stuff the SNP claim they could have. I made a post in the politics thread the other day which set out some stuff.

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one way to look at it is that we in the north get left with a tory government for years.

 

the other way is that we allow the shortbread tins independence then invade the twats, aside from stepping round the sheep shit it woulodn't be too difficuilt.

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Theres plenty of oil in Scotland isn't there?

 

There's a bit, but what industry do they have when it runs out.

 

Whisky and haggis farming

 

True, but the amount of tax made on oil must supplement quite a bit of the scottish economy.

 

Something that never seems to get mentioned is even if the oil ends up being under Scottish territorial waters, the companies who are exploiting it are not Scottish and will not choose to be, meaning that most of the profits from the oil would leave the country.

 

Would the scots not then tax the oil companies appropraitely ?

 

Yeah, but there's more to live than taxes. Every major "Scottish" company will have a major decision to make about whether to remain British, or become Scottish and there'd be a significant risk in moving from one of the world's largest economies to a brand new country which would be starting from scratch. I don't think many will see that as being in their business interests and most will stay British and pay the majority of their taxes to the UK.

 

Wonder if Alex Salmond would answer the question of what would've happened had scotland been independent during the financial crisis - two of the world's top banks, and most affected banks, HBOS and RBS, were based in Scotland. It would've basically finished the country off to bail them out. the bailouts would've been many magnitudes larger than those needed in Ireland.

 

Scotland needs to admit they have the best of both worlds right now - ability to make their own policies and get the rest of the UK to help pay for it, or at least to shield scotland from the full-on financial consequences of their policies.

 

there'd be no such fiscal freedom in an independent state. all this free tuition, free prescription stuff isn't going to last once they have independence. personally having lived in scotland i think they've got it great - one last hold-out against the evil forces of neo-liberalism who seek to fuck over everything and turn all our cherished services into profit-driven entreprises. i used to think it was unfair that Scots got their university tuition for free, and it basically is unfair on the English students, but now i just see it as "oh well, at least there's one place that's not fucked it up yet".

 

Then there's all the fucking bureaucracy and mind-numbing minutiae that would have to be addressed and sorted out in the event of independence. not least for the hundreds and thousands of english in scotland and 800,000 scots in england. or anyone who frequently travels or does business in both countries. which is every company in the UK. and how do you divide up north sea fossil fuels? or the london-based companies who mine there? and the armed forces loyal to the Queen? what do they do with their currency? make a new one? then what happens if exchange rates fluctuate so that bread costs twice as much in gretna than in carlisle? basically they'd have to peg it to the UK pound sterling - so much for true independence there. maybe they'd join the Euro after all. superb timing that would be  :iamatwat: What about crossing the border - as a new EU nation will they sign up to Schengen? gonna need passport checks at Edinburgh Waverley then? It'll no doubt make moving house or moving jobs between one area of what is now the UK to another more of a hassle too.

 

Nah, it's a fucking shit idea when you get down to it, based on little more than a bloody mel gibson movie.

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A whole host of opportunities could appear for Newcastle being a border city. Places like Newry on the Irish border thrive with southern shoppers trying to escape the euro.

 

it's not really though - Berwick is, Gretna is, Carlisle is to an extent. we're 50 miles from the border. and as the southern govt hate us they're never likely to give us a proper motorway to Edinburgh to speed up integration and connections between those two cities. cunts.

 

I think England would be eternally fucked if scotland left. we work well together to limit the amount of elections the tories can win. without our scottish brethren i can't see the tories losing another election for decades.

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Knew you'd get chippy at that  I agree with you. Even 'if' they got all the oil and it all went smooth as butter re: taxation, it wouldn't cover all the things they get now, let alone the extra stuff the SNP claim they could have. I made a post in the politics thread the other day which set out some stuff.

 

I forgot to put my smiley in man  :lol:  Knew what you were getting at  :thup:

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  • 10 months later...

Was a bit of interest in this in the Sunderland thread :lol: so have started a new thread about it.

 

Interested to hear opinions from everyone really, would be good to hear what you guys in England think about it and what you know about it. There is a lot of bluster from both camps at the moment although the YES campaign certainly seems to be operating with more integrity to me. The NO campaign appears to be focusing on things like the EU membership and using opportunities like that to discredit the campaign. I am more interested in the bigger picture personally although these smaller factors will obviously be very important. One thing I have noticed since I started to take a more focused interest in it is that the BBC is pretty shockingly one sided and they are making no bones about this.

 

Around a year ago I was marginally against voting for independence but after having a long think about it and doing some proper research into both sides of it I have decided almost certainly to vote yes unless something majorly changes in the next couple of years. There are various reasons for this and I'll just say now it has nothing to do with Mel Gibson and I am no big fan of the SNP(they have done better than I expected however).

 

At this point in time I don't think there will be enough votes to gain independence, mainly because of the inconvenience it will cause in the short-term for so many people which I can understand. I really hope it does happen though as something needs to change in Scotland, that's for sure.

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Sorry. :blush:

 

Sadly, I've become pro-Independence.  It's mainly because I feel we need to get as far away from the Tories/Establishment as we can.  I don't think we'll survive very well, but I like Scotland's politics, we're a very socialist nation.  And let's face it, it can't be any worse than being part of the Tories Victorian Britain agenda.

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Sorry. :blush:

 

Sadly, I've become pro-Independence.  It's mainly because I feel we need to get as far away from the Tories/Establishment as we can.  I don't think we'll survive very well, but I like Scotland's politics, we're a very socialist nation.  And let's face it, it can't be any worse than being part of the Tories Victorian Britain agenda.

 

Certainly one of my reasons for it too Bluf, this belief that we can't survive on our own though I think is a mis-conception and I know where it comes from.

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I just mean, we'll be a small insignificant nation.  It's probably just a hangover from the "World Player" Britain of the last, well, of my whole life, but I've little to believe we'd actually do well.  We do as well as we do just now because we're in the Union.  If we leave, I doubt free prescriptions, council tax freezes for 5 years etc are going to be as easy to maintain.  I don't like how much we're hinging our hopes on Europe, who are, quite frankly, as corrupt as they come and I want nothing to do with the EU in its current form. 

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I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

 

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

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I'm not Scottish and I don't really have any strong affection for 'Great Britain' either, but I think it's a shame that we are talking about splitting nations up even further instead of banding together more closely. The future is an interconnected world where what country someone is from is increasingly irrelevant.

 

For political reasons if I was Scottish I would probably want independence to guarantee a Labour government. It will be poorer and northern areas of England that suffer most from generations of Tory rule that doesn't care about or need to consider them to get elected.

 

I hope independence will guarantee new parties and new ways of thinking. I want decisions about Scotland to be made in Scotland. I don't think westminster really has any idea what it's like in the highlands of Scotland for example. Keep it small and you can manage it better.

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