Dogawful Officiating - Dave Coote suspended

[80]

Ha, hadn't considered that angle. I doubt it, though.

[Stottie]

Quote

This season so far, Newcastle are placed 4th on favorable overturn decisions. Tottenham are 19th, Man City 18th, Arsenal 13th, Man Utd 11th, Chelsea 10th and Liverpool 3rd.

 

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/4722849/how-var-decisions-have-affected-every-premier-league-club-in-2022-23

 

Down to +2 now

[Yorkie]

2 hours ago, Kaizero said:

 

I disagree with the concept you "can't celebrate" a goal due to VAR existing. It's the same core principle as saying you couldn't "celebrate" a goal in the past because the linesman might've raised the offside flag and you didn't notice before celebrating, so what is the point of celebrating until you see the linesman keeps his flag down? Or what if the ref blows his whistle a few seconds after you've burst into celebration? Can't celebrate before we know the ref doesn't blow his whistle.

 

It's a self-enforced "punishment" that doesn't need to be there. You knew goals could be disallowed for tons of reasons in the past, yet you wouldn't withold your immediate reaction to the goal because of that. The only downside is it takes longer for a goal to be disallowed or not with VAR, however, if VAR worked as intended the game would be a lot more fair overall. I didn't see any of the NUFC fans not celebrating spontaniously when the disallowed goal went in, if you don't celebrate because of some weird issue with "VAR might disallow it" then that's a personal issue, not an issue with VAR. 

 

Just fucking celebrate and enjoy the game and then deal with the disappointment after if the goal is disallowed, just as you would've back in the days before VAR where a late offiside call might've disallowed it.

 

 

The existence of 'a linesman and his flag' versus the existence of 'Forensic McFunpolice watching a thousand replays in search of an error' is not a fair comparison whatsoever.

 

Plus, you're talking as if celebrating is a conscious decision that has been considered and weighed-up prior to the action of actually celebrating. But it's not; celebrating is an involuntary reaction, borne out of an inherent understanding of the game.

 

In 2023, thanks to VAR - and the frequency of perfectly good goals being chalked-off due to incidents no one could realistically spot without a thousand replays (aka 'clear an obvious errors') - people's inherent understanding has changed. The spectre of a VAR-influenced chalking-off looms over literally every goal.

[Kaizero]

17 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

The existence of 'a linesman and his flag' versus the existence of 'Forensic McFunpolice watching a thousand replays in search of an error' is not a fair comparison whatsoever.

 

Plus, you're talking as if celebrating is a conscious decision that has been considered and weighed-up prior to the action of actually celebrating. But it's not; celebrating is an involuntary reaction, borne out of an inherent understanding of the game.

 

In 2023, thanks to VAR - and the frequency of perfectly good goals being chalked-off due to incidents no one could realistically spot without a thousand replays (aka 'clear an obvious errors') - people's inherent understanding has changed. The spectre of a VAR-influenced chalking-off looms over literally every goal.

 

So far this season there has been 35 disallowed goals due to VAR. 707 goals have been scored so far this season.

 

That means that there's 1 goal disallowed by VAR for every 20.2 goals scored so far this season.

 

22 goals have been overturned to goals due to VAR this season. That means there's 1 goal that wouldn't have stood without VAR for every 32.1 goals scored so far this season.

 

The chances of VAR overturning a goal are statistically much smaller than the chance of an offside decision ruling out a goal.

 

It's not about an "inherent understanding of the game". It's about a self-inflicted reluctance to change and wanting something to whine about, being perfectly honest. I've never once not celebrated a goal after the introduction of VAR because "the spectre of a VAR-influenced chalking-off was looming over literally every goal", because I have no need to. The statistical chance of VAR ruling out a goal is lower than the chance of the linesman raising his flag. VAR doesn't "loom over" anything.

 

If it's a goal, it's a goal. If it isn't a goal, it isn't a goal. That's how I want things to be. VAR isn't perfect yet, but as mentioned, the amount of correct decisions made is up to 94% from 82% on average over a PL season. I much prefer 6 in 100 decisions being wrong than 18 in 100. Not gonna stop celebrating goals just because they might get ruled out, never did before VAR and never will with VAR.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kaizero

[Yorkie]

3 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

So far this season there has been 35 disallowed goals due to VAR. 707 goals have been scored so far this season.

 

That means that there's 1 goal disallowed by VAR for every 20.2 goals scored so far this season.

 

22 goals have been overturned to goals due to VAR this season. That means there's 1 goal that wouldn't have stood without VAR for every 32.1 goals scored so far this season.

 

The chances of VAR overturning a goal are statistically much smaller than the chance of an offside decision ruling out a goal.

 

It's not about an "inherent understanding of the game". It's about a self-inflicted reluctance to change and wanting something to whine about, being perfectly honest. I've never once not celebrated a goal after the introduction of VAR because "the spectre of a VAR-influenced chalking-off was looming over literally every goal", because I have no need to. The statistical chance of VAR ruling out a goal is lower than the chance of the linesman raising his flag. VAR doesn't "loom over" anything.

 

If it's a goal, it's a goal. If it isn't a goal, it isn't a goal. That's how I want things to be. VAR isn't perfect yet, but as mentioned, the amount of correct decisions made is up to 94% from 82% on average over a PL season. I much prefer 6 in 100 decisions being wrong than 18 in 100. Not gonna stop celebrating goals just because they might get ruled out, never did before VAR and never will with VAR.

 

I respect the thoughtful reply but I can't take the parts in bold seriously. Literally every goal is checked for supposed misdmeanours long, long, long after the ball has crossed the line. It's entirely different to the occasional late flag. 

 

As for bold #1, I will happily find anything to whinge about purely for the sake of it.  VAR is not one of them.

 

My position on it for a long while is that it should just be removed from the matter of offside but that's essentially a separate argument to the wider discussion about VAR's philosophical impact on 'the football experience.'

[Kaizero]

9 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

I respect the thoughtful reply but I can't take the parts in bold seriously. Literally every goal is checked for supposed misdmeanours long, long, long after the ball has crossed the line. It's entirely different to the occasional late flag. 

 

As for bold #1, I will happily find anything to whinge about purely for the sake of it.  VAR is not one of them.

 

My position on it for a long while is that it should just be removed from the matter of offside but that's essentially a separate argument to the wider discussion about VAR's philosophical impact on 'the football experience.'

 

Happily admit I went a bit OTT with the whinge part  I just feel a lot of people on a general basis just oppose "change" no matter what, just because it's not what they've been used to. I can see your point of view on it "not being the same" and all that, but to me, it is. It is essentially just another factor in the game of football that could lead to a disallowed goal or overturned decision. There are other pre-existing factors that could do that as well prior to VAR, like if the ref handed out a red card, the linesman calls the ref over and proceeding to tell him how he saw the incident - then it being changed to a yellow. Same goes for penalties given/not given. VAR is just a lot more visible than those factors were due to the stoppage in game (which on average is only 50 seconds, which is not a lot considering that certain incidents run that average up due to taking a couple of minutes - which in turn increases the negative perception those who already view VAR unfavorably holds). 

 

This season we have had 2 goals changed from disallowed to allowed due to VAR. We have had 3 goals disallowed due to VAR. We have scored 39 goals this season, that means we run a current 1 in 13 risk of having a goal overturned due to VAR interference. We have a 1 in 19.5 chance of having a goal changed from disallowed to a goal due to VAR interference.

 

Statistically we have a goal disallowed due to VAR every 8.6 games this season. We score on average 1.5 goals a game. I'm not going to conciously or subconciously withold celebration for something that almost never happens just because it could happen. To me it just feels like being contrary for the sake of being contrary, because looking at the actual numbers and facts, there's absolutely no need to feel that way. As said, goals more often get disallowed due to good old fashioned linesmen flagging for offsides more often than VAR interference. 

 

Going back to your first point, you don't know the outcome of VAR checking the goal before you get a VAR review alert. Usually the initial euphoria has already receded by that point, it doesn't remove it. You thought it was a goal, perhaps it turns out it wasn't. Your experience isn't diminished unless you conciously allow it to be diminished by expecting every goal to be overturned, when they quite cleary aren't  

 

I, for one, would rather have correct decisions decide the outcome of a game of football rather than the opposite and defending that viewpoint by saying refereeing mistakes "are a part of the game". They shouldn't be if they don't have to be. The fact VAR has had a positive effect on lowering the amount of horrid tackles happening due to players being aware that they'll be penalized by VAR even if the ref doesn't spot the incident is just another positive side effect.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kaizero

[Kaizero]

tl;dr, I feel people complaining about VAR are the same people that would compain about UI changes on Facebook and/or Instagram until, after a good while, admitting that the changes made the user experience better after all.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kaizero

[Joseph]

 

13 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

tl;dr, I feel people complaining about VAR are the same people that would compain about UI changes on Facebook and/or Instagram until, after a good while, admitting that the changes made the user experience better after all.

What a tremendously odd comparison. VAR has been around for the best part of 4 years now, so if people think it’s had a negative impact upon the sport as a spectacle I don’t think you can dismiss that as some short-termist overreaction. 

[Kaizero]

6 minutes ago, Joseph said:

What a tremendously odd comparison. VAR has been around for the best part of 4 years now, so if people think it’s had a negative impact upon the sport as a spectacle I don’t think you can dismiss that as some short-termist overreaction. 

 

I mean, every industry, medium and platform are extremely different. It's the basic concept being compared, not the lenght of the overreaction. The comparison is that these people are being contrary for the sake of being contrary whilst not acknowledging the fairly obvious positive aspects of the change, postive aspects that outweigh the negative ones.

[Hanshithispantz]

Isak has had a great goal and a great assist chalked off due to overzealous VAR use and he's been here two minutes, it's hardly just a reaction to change why people are sick of it.

 

I've maintained all along that VAR is great for off the ball incidents but the subjective nature of it means it's completely pointless at best as a refereeing aid, and completely ruins the enjoyment of the game at worst. It's just impossible to get the balance right between undermining the on field referee and being overly reactive to any minor infraction. The decisions just shift from the pitch to the VAR room and are now based on the debate of whether the incident is enough for VAR to intervene or not.

[Hanshithispantz]

Our first goal could have been chalked off too for Willocks foul in the build up, again a subjective decision. We got lucky with that (although it didn't feel like it given the decisions up to that point) so it's not like it was a blatantly bent game or anything. Just shit.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Added to here as the triple post made me look unhinged.

 

 

 

 

It's not even subjective either, by the conditions Neville brings up Felipe cannot be adjudged to not be in control, he literally ticks every box for the criteria they're looking for with the exception that the ball was moving quickly.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[Superior Acuña]

 

1 in 20 goals is not that remote, or it happening 1 in 9 games, that's a significant doubt. Then that doubt is raised for a lot of goals by the type of goal it is. For example, a screamer I would be less doubtful and more likely to celebrate uninhibited, anything that looks marginal offside or whatever I have significant doubt and I can't pretend I don't. Lowdown behind the goal at one end and the goal is in the other end from a cross or scrap and you've no idea what's happened, so yes, I doubt. The very fact that they're doing the reviews shows it's not insignificant, or why bother. *The fact there's a review means it's no longer 'goal', it's 'potential goal, subject to review'.* Yes most are given, but that's a fundamental change to the psychology of it. Genuinely envy anyone who can pretend they know for a fact we've scored. I could pretend to celebrate the same, but anything where I see doubt, I'd be faking it if I celebrated like before when I knew a certain goal. Tbh I have faked it in the away end to try to not feel left out of the moment.  Imagine that Chopra goal at the mackems - absolute bedlam, there'd have been substantial doubt about that, with good reason cos they'd have reviewed it for about 2 mins. As mentioned before the offside flag is incomparable and irrelevant because you see that instantly, the flag is raised before, or as, the goal goes in - pre-VAR I'd have always glanced at the linesman for a split second when any doubt before going mad - but that is virtually instantaneous. If you can't see the difference between glancing while you brace yourself to jump, and potentially aborting before your feet have left the ground, to the amount of time it takes to check VAR, you're just being deliberately obtuse. 

 

This is so big to me because it is the biggest joy of football, that instantaneous joy when the net ripples. There are more important and better things in life than football, but the joy when a goal goes in is a really unique and very high high. It's also why I love football in a way I can't other sports, where goals/points are much higher and they count for much less. That joy is just different to me and clearly less when instead of GET IN WE have SCORED!!!, it's GET IN I THINK WE'VE PROBABLY SCORED, THOUGH IT LOOKED A TIGHT ONE SOMEWHERE IN THE BUILD UP SO HONESTLY IM NOT ENTIRELY SURE, MOST LIKELY WE HAVE, I'LL KNOW FOR SURE IN A MINUTE OR TWO. If you can turn your brain off like that, honestly good for you for being able to pretend.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Superior Acuña

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Kaizero said:

 

I mean, every industry, medium and platform are extremely different. It's the basic concept being compared, not the lenght of the overreaction. The comparison is that these people are being contrary for the sake of being contrary whilst not acknowledging the fairly obvious positive aspects of the change, postive aspects that outweigh the negative ones.

Problem is, you’re setting the parameters of what is ‘positive’ and what is ‘negative’.  The introduction of VAR has made a game which is not naturally stop-start a stop-start one; it has removed the implicit equality of the pyramid - i.e. all games played are under the same laws whether this a pub league or premier league game; it has removed some of the human element of the game; and it is has all been done at the behest of tiresome TV pundits and the outraged armchair brigade.  It is a joyless, soulless introduction which should never have been allowed in the first place which has made match day experiences the worse and all so that the risks to the money-men of a key decision costing them millions are reduced.  VAR’s introduction has everything to do with financial reasons and none to do with sporting ones.  It’s utter cack and should be palmed off ASAP - and I don’t give a shite if it makes the referees calls occasionally more accurate; the Forest game was proof positive that the dozy gets are actually getting worse with its introduction and becoming more cowardly than ever.

 

TL;DR VAR is shite

[Unbelievable]

Another aspect to it is that I think most people can stomach an honest human (referee) mistake much easier than an inexplicable VAR call where you need five angles and a large amount of subjectivity to still not have a “clear and obvious” error that needs overturning. Between Isak’s Liverpool goal, the Crystal Palace push, Joelinton’s supposed handling of the ball vs Leicester, the Man U final offside decision and now this goal chalked off for bullshit reasons, that’s at least five curious decisions involving only us this season, that I would challenge being “correct” even if according to Kaizero’s stats they undoubtedly are counted as such.

 

The bottom line is that goals and penalty decisions now seem much more subjective than they ever were before. If VAR was used to correct clear errors from the officials on the pitch, such as missing a clear offside or a horror tackle, nobody would object. It is however being used selectively and subjectively to influence the outcome of games. I was critical when it was introduced and told it would improve, but it hasn’t. It needs to go, simple as.

[gbandit]

There needs to be some sort of action by fans to push through change. “Mic up the Refs or VAR has to go”. Then like the Luddites, football fans should smash up all the VAR screens and tech if no action is taken

[Lush Vlad]

6 hours ago, Kaizero said:

 

I disagree with the concept you "can't celebrate" a goal due to VAR existing. It's the same core principle as saying you couldn't "celebrate" a goal in the past because the linesman might've raised the offside flag and you didn't notice before celebrating, so what is the point of celebrating until you see the linesman keeps his flag down? Or what if the ref blows his whistle a few seconds after you've burst into celebration? Can't celebrate before we know the ref doesn't blow his whistle.

 

It's a self-enforced "punishment" that doesn't need to be there. You knew goals could be disallowed for tons of reasons in the past, yet you wouldn't withold your immediate reaction to the goal because of that. The only downside is it takes longer for a goal to be disallowed or not with VAR, however, if VAR worked as intended the game would be a lot more fair overall. I didn't see any of the NUFC fans not celebrating spontaniously when the disallowed goal went in, if you don't celebrate because of some weird issue with "VAR might disallow it" then that's a personal issue, not an issue with VAR. 

 

Just fucking celebrate and enjoy the game and then deal with the disappointment after if the goal is disallowed, just as you would've back in the days before VAR where a late offiside call might've disallowed it.

 

Well funnily enough. When you are looking straight at the linesman from your angle and he doesn’t put his flag up. You can celebrate in basically a split second. 
 

I have gone early plenty of times with that. But used to always do a quick glance and get even happier when you’d see them fucking off back towards the halfway  

 

It’s not like I’m stood there not cheering. I just always feel like even in the moment. There is a chance it will be disallowed. Especially if there was a tight looking offside call or some contentious incident in the build up. 
 

I also said I got caught up in the moment and went coco bananas when Anderson scored. 

 

But aye, ignore those bits. Keep waffling on. I don’t celebrate goals at all  

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Lush Vlad

[RobsonsWonderland]

If it bounces of your leg... It's a deflection.

 

If you are swinging your leg and it's a miscue... It's intent.

 

Can it not be that simple?? 

 

 

 

[Stottie]

This is the first time I've heard a number as low as 82% being given for decision accuracy before VAR. Other studies have suggested it was over 90%.

 

The World Cup was not full of bad VAR calls. Does European football have them? If not, some degree of blame must rest with the Premier League refs.

[Kaizero]

6 minutes ago, Stottie said:

This is the first time I've heard a number as low as 82% being given for decision accuracy before VAR. Other studies have suggested it was over 90%.

 

The World Cup was not full of bad VAR calls. Does European football have them? If not, some degree of blame must rest with the Premier League refs.

 

The PL is in another league entirely when it comes to VAR being used horribly, tbf. To my knowledge (happy to be proven wrong by any natives of those countries) the English are the only ones really complaining as well. The Norwegian league is introducing VAR this season, everybody is happy as fuck with it and can't wait for it to come into action. Fans have been demanding it being used for years now.

[joeyt]

4 hours ago, Kaizero said:

 

 VAR isn't perfect yet, but as mentioned, the amount of correct decisions made is up to 94% from 82% on average over a PL season.

 

 

 

 

What is a correct decision? Was last night's goal a correct decision?

 

Or is it only a correct decision based on someone's interpretation of the law, which most people last night believe ws an incorrect decision

[TheBrownBottle]

Which fans were demanding it?  I’ve never seen a fanzine, a supporter group, or anyone I know in the pub demanding it.  Most were either causally indifferent or firmly against it.  The only fuckers who ever pushed it in my experience were the Keys and Greys of the world - and the rest were tiresome angry Twitter cunts. 

[Rod]

We won 2-1 last night and I should be happy.  However I am still fuming about the Anderson disallowed goal.  It's almost as if the officials have said "right, how do we disallow this".  They took an age to scrutinise what was a perfectly executed goal and yet couldn't be bothered to glance at the shirt being dragged off Andersons back that would have led to a penalty.

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, joeyt said:

 

What is a correct decision? Was last night's goal a correct decision?

 

Or is it only a correct decision based on someone's interpretation of the law, which most people last night believe ws an incorrect decision

It also doesn’t record the decisions which were wrong were VAR arbitrarily decided not to intervene.  Remember, it is meant to be for clear and obvious refereeing errors - yet it’s use us so obvious arbitrary. 

[Kaizero]

16 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Which fans were demanding it?  I’ve never seen a fanzine, a supporter group, or anyone I know in the pub demanding it.  Most were either causally indifferent or firmly against it.  The only fuckers who ever pushed it in my experience were the Keys and Greys of the world - and the rest were tiresome angry Twitter cunts. 

 

If you read my post you will find that the clear context of me saying that is following stating that it is now being introduced in Norway after fans have pushed for it for years. I was actually saying that, to my knowledge (and I may be wrong as I don't live in those countries and read their press daily), England seems to be the only countries hating on VAR on a regular basis. Which to me makes it feel like it's a referee standard problem, not really a VAR problem.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kaizero

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, Kaizero said:

 

If you read my post you will find that the clear context of me saying that is following stating that it is now being introduced in Norway after fans have pushed for it for years.

I’ll have to take your word on that one tbf - I take zero notice of the Eliteserien and have no idea how that fan support would be measured.  I also don’t give a shite if it is introduced in every other league on the planet - it shouldn’t have been introduced in England.  Hopefully it will die in the same ditch as plastic pitches and the ZDS Cup.