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The England Thread


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27 minutes ago, huss9 said:

didnt learn owt from the croatia semi in the world cup, or the the flukey win against denmark.

I'm only joining this discussion tonight because what I saw from Mancini was everything England could strive for in a manager. Southgate has many of those attributes - largely relating to the way he carries himself off the pitch, but he's in a different league compared to someone like Mancini/Enrique/Martinez when it comes to tactics and game management.

 

I tell you what, Martinez would absolutely get the best out the talent of the squad. 

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Martinez can’t even get the best out of the best group of players in the world.

 

Belgium are just England’s ‘Golden Generation’ all over again.  They’ll win fuck all.

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2 minutes ago, Sima said:

Martinez can’t even get the best out of the best group of players in the world.

 

Belgium are just England’s ‘Golden Generation’ all over again.  They’ll win fuck all.

Our defence would be horrific.

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39 minutes ago, LiquidAK said:

 

Nah I'm sorry, energy levels is not why we lost tonight.

no that was alluding to the semi against croatia in the WC

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The thing if Southgate left, who’d we get? Top managers want to manage in club football. If someone like Wenger fancied it (though he’s been out of the game a few years now) it’d be interesting but Southgate is probably as good as we’d get.

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6 hours ago, LiquidAK said:

 

Nah I'm sorry, energy levels is not why we lost tonight.

You were just too passive, but Italy can play ridiculously well past the press, so Southgate didn't want to riski that. 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders.. That was a bit much. 

 

And he should have got Sterling off for Sancho or Rashford after 90.

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Southgate has grown on me, he's a really good figurehead for the team and you can feel proud of having someone like him representing you as far as character goes. But he has maybe put too much emphasis on solid defence, and surely has the players to play on the ball a bit more. Felt he was a bit too cautious and should have used Foden and Grealish a bit more, even if that meant bringing them off the bench earlier. 

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Have to trust that Southgate will learn fr what happened. He made mistakes with not adapting to Italy quicker and not trying to win the game in second half/extra time.

 

But he's done so much to improve everything around the team, unite the player's and taken us further than we've been in decades.

 

He's earned the right to continue with this group and show what more he can do and how he can improve. 

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just dont think southgate has developed much in terms of "in-game management" since croatia in 2018. 

 

also i really think we need to stop this "brave/gallant loser" outlook in out sportsmen/women. 

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9 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

The thing if Southgate left, who’d we get? Top managers want to manage in club football. If someone like Wenger fancied it (though he’s been out of the game a few years now) it’d be interesting but Southgate is probably as good as we’d get.

Mancini and not just because they beat us last night. We do, however, need to be creating a hub of future would be English managers from within like with Southgate. Could Lampard or Gerrard make that step up for example? 

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The problem with Martinez at both Belgium and Everton is his philosophy shows too little regard to the defensive side of the game.

 

While his sides are easy on the eye, the midfield are never set up to protect or shield when they lose the ball, so when you have an ageing back line like Belgium, they end up being totally exposed.

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Just now, The Prophet said:

The problem with Martinez at both Belgium and Everton is his philosophy shows too little regard to the defensive side of the game.

 

While his sides are easy on the eye, the midfield are never set up to protect or shield when they lose the ball, so when you have an ageing back line like Belgium, they end up being totally exposed.

He’s a very very poor man’s KK

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54 minutes ago, huss9 said:

just dont think southgate has developed much in terms of "in-game management" since croatia in 2018. 

 

also i really think we need to stop this "brave/gallant loser" outlook in out sportsmen/women. 

Same here imo. We had one of the best two or three squads there and hosted 6/7 games. Getting to the final shouldn’t really be seen as an achievement they should be proud of. Germany, who I do feel are better than some make out, were our only other major challenge on paper and we still had a big home advantage. 
 

Southgate’s cautious approach often made sense with hindsight, but with the players we had, it would count for nothing unless we won the whole thing. It’s not like we had a bad defence anyway!

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Roberto Mancini has been a manager for the best part of 20 years, working in a variety of countries, environments and with a wide range of players, winning a load of trophies along the way. 

 

Gareth Southgate, other than a few years as Middlesbrough manager, has been in the England 'bubble' for maybe half a dozen years or so in a number of roles. 

 

Setting aside ability for a moment, Mancini has considerably more experience than Southgate and can draw upon countless previous experiences and scenarios to help react to the ebbs and flows of a game, going down to an early goal in a final, for example. 

 

The debate and points made throughout this topic has been fantastic and really in depth, there's not a great deal I disagree with. I think you can say that man for man, both sides were fairly well matched last night, hence a penalty shoot out after extra time. So how do you separate such teams? Or who separates them? The manager. In my opinion. When all else is equal, the manager has the ultimate influence, for good or for bad. 

 

We've seen it here, Rafa got an extra 10% or 20% out of a squad that Bruce simply can't. 

 

Did Southgate make ineffective decisions about substitutions? Yeah, probably. That doesn't make him a bad manager, just an inexperienced one when up against Roberto Mancini. If the managers were reversed then it's England winning the tournament. 

 

If the situation happened in some other reality, Sir Alex Ferguson manages Scotland differently after however many years at Man Utd compared with having a few years at Aberdeen. Anyone in any walk of life does things differently after years of experience (not necessarily better, just different!). 

 

The match was won and lost, ultimately, in my view, because Mancini is a better, more experienced manager than Southgate. I can live with that every day of the week. That's not to say it's not massively shit and I'm pleased we lost because that's not true, I'd have loved to have won! 

 

So many things have been said about Southgate in this topic and like I say, I agree with a lot. He's clearly not an idiot, he's an intelligent, dignified man and has given us so much to be happy and proud about. It's not a crime to make mistakes but it is to not learn from them. He'll be analysing everything that happened throughout the tournament and I do believe (hope) he learns from what happened and builds upon his experience to ultimately make the England football team an even greater success. 

 

If he chooses not to learn and adapt then he's a stubborn fool but I don't think he is. He's still a relatively young manager both in terms of age and teams managed, he just came up short against Roberto Mancini's Italy who are on their best run in nearly a hundred years. Whether it's with England or elsewhere but Gareth Southgate in 10-15 years time will be a much better manager because I do believe he has the intelligence to learn and evolve (certainly the anti-PFM), it's just doesn't help when we want glory now! 

 

It's frustrating, massively frustrating because this genuinely was a fantastic opportunity to win but there's no shame in what we experienced and we go again. We can be proud. 

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1 minute ago, number37 said:

Roberto Mancini has been a manager for the best part of 20 years, working in a variety of countries, environments and with a wide range of players, winning a load of trophies along the way. 

 

Gareth Southgate, other than a few years as Middlesbrough manager, has been in the England 'bubble' for maybe half a dozen years or so in a number of roles. 

 

Setting aside ability for a moment, Mancini has considerably more experience than Southgate and can draw upon countless previous experiences and scenarios to help react to the ebbs and flows of a game, going down to an early goal in a final, for example. 

 

The debate and points made throughout this topic has been fantastic and really in depth, there's not a great deal I disagree with. I think you can say that man for man, both sides were fairly well matched last night, hence a penalty shoot out after extra time. So how do you separate such teams? Or who separates them? The manager. In my opinion. When all else is equal, the manager has the ultimate influence, for good or for bad. 

 

We've seen it here, Rafa got an extra 10% or 20% out of a squad that Bruce simply can't. 

 

Did Southgate make ineffective decisions about substitutions? Yeah, probably. That doesn't make him a bad manager, just an inexperienced one when up against Roberto Mancini. If the managers were reversed then it's England winning the tournament. 

 

If the situation happened in some other reality, Sir Alex Ferguson manages Scotland differently after however many years at Man Utd compared with having a few years at Aberdeen. Anyone in any walk of life does things differently after years of experience (not necessarily better, just different!). 

 

The match was won and lost, ultimately, in my view, because Mancini is a better, more experienced manager than Southgate. I can live with that every day of the week. That's not to say it's not massively shit and I'm pleased we lost because that's not true, I'd have loved to have won! 

 

So many things have been said about Southgate in this topic and like I say, I agree with a lot. He's clearly not an idiot, he's an intelligent, dignified man and has given us so much to be happy and proud about. It's not a crime to make mistakes but it is to not learn from them. He'll be analysing everything that happened throughout the tournament and I do believe (hope) he learns from what happened and builds upon his experience to ultimately make the England football team an even greater success. 

 

If he chooses not to learn and adapt then he's a stubborn fool but I don't think he is. He's still a relatively young manager both in terms of age and teams managed, he just came up short against Roberto Mancini's Italy who are on their best run in nearly a hundred years. Whether it's with England or elsewhere but Gareth Southgate in 10-15 years time will be a much better manager because I do believe he has the intelligence to learn and evolve (certainly the anti-PFM), it's just doesn't help when we want glory now! 

 

It's frustrating, massively frustrating because this genuinely was a fantastic opportunity to win but there's no shame in what we experienced and we go again. We can be proud. 

Another good post :thup:

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5 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Agree with all of it. Do we lose that final under Rafa? No chance imo. Even a washed up Mou. 

The sad thing is, I think Southgate has been quite ruthless or calculated at times, but last night he got his team/system/formation and subs wrong and of course the pen takers.

 

Something I will say, Southgate has taken England to 3 semi finals in 3 successive tournaments, going one better in the 3rd by reaching the final. Name another English manager to have bettered that…

 

It’s massive massive progress and if he doesn’t lead us to silverware, that alone is huge, but we do now need to win something because this group and some of those excluded, are more than capable of winning something, and he is too.

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I’d like him in charge long term. He’s not brilliant but he’s given us two of our best four tournaments in our history. Aye the squad is very good but it has been several times before as well. Would like to think he has enough goodwill in the bank that if we went out at say the Quarter Final stage in Qatar, as long as it wasn’t a horrendous tournament we’d give him to Euro 2024 at least.

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In international football you don’t need to be brilliant or great or the best manager, same with a team or an individual, look at Messi (best player, only one trophy) or Greece (shit team, but won it), even if we don't win anything under Southgate, I feel his time as manager will be more defining for different reasons and again I feel he is perfect for this group, the ethos, the whole message and the whole culture of the group.
 

He really is statesman like, I just wish he could have capped it off with glory last night and hope if by the next WC he doesn’t, he won’t be seen as some kind of failure. This is the most likeable, best playing, most (tournament) successful and technical ability England side I’ve seen since I’ve been following them and I love for example how he brought in Jones and is willing to do such a thing.
 

He’s a baby in terms of management and especially at this level where he has already achieved so much, much more than anyone else even Sir Alf Ramsey in terms of tournament finishes outside of winning the final in ‘66.

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It is easy to forget though is how good he generally has us defensively - he deserves credit for that. Everyone was shitting it about the defence going into the tournament but that's the best we've looked as a general unit in donkeys, considering the lack of talent back there compared to what we have going forward. Now, some of that is down to how overly defensive we have been, but we also know that it's not as easy as chucking loads of bodies back and hoping for the best - it requires organisation, awareness, and communication.

 

It does feel like with some nurturing & tweaking that he could have the team in a really good spot for next year, but I just don't believe he has that in him. The best hope is that some players come into form over the next year that essentially perfect his Plan A.

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Most of this will likely have already been said so I'm lazily just copying what I messaged a few people earlier, but my 2 pennies:

 

I feel this is another example of the tribalism in the country and how people are more bothered about sticking to a rigid opinion instead of being bothered by actual evidence. It's "Southgate is shit" vs "hes mint, ignore the flaws" which is a fucking preposterous mentality to have.

 

We've made huge progress this tournament, shown a lot more composure than we have for decades.

 

We are in a great position for the next few tournaments with so much young talent in the squad.

 

Southgate got found out 2nd half, Mancini changed things and swung the game in their favour.

 

Southgate is clearly a very very good man manager.

 

Tactically he got found wanting in the big moments last night

 

People (not specifically on here) can't seem to accept all of the above can be true at the same time.

 

Proud, frustrated, optimistic and gutted all in one. Football, eh?

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Really enjoyed the Euros and England look in a good place for the next few years but for fuck sake don't bring it home anymore, those neanderthals yesterday were a total embarrassment.

 

Leave those fuckas at home and let's go and win something somewhere else.

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50 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

I’d like him in charge long term. He’s not brilliant but he’s given us two of our best four tournaments in our history. Aye the squad is very good but it has been several times before as well. Would like to think he has enough goodwill in the bank that if we went out at say the Quarter Final stage in Qatar, as long as it wasn’t a horrendous tournament we’d give him to Euro 2024 at least.

 

He has to stay. There's been too much work done over the past few years that needs completed. I hope we stick to a model of national managers more long term (where possible) and potentially sounding out managers for the national team well before they are hired and integrating them in to the set up. I hope we're done with the days of reactionary appointments of whatever league manager people ay feel fits the bill at that point in time. 

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