Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dokko said: This is better than Line of Duty. A very good review of LOD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Officer dibble on the attack! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dokko said: This is better than Line of Duty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just as an aside, I’m not a serving officer any more Although it wasn’t all that long ago that I was. Before I start getting pelters on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, Dokko said: This is better than Line of Duty. The thin blue line with Rowan Atkinson is more realistic than that tripe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, ED209 said: The thin blue line with Rowan Atkinson is more realistic than that tripe. Your cock up, my arse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishops Finger Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 26 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said: Just as an aside, I’m not a serving officer any more Although it wasn’t all that long ago that I was. Before I start getting pelters on here. Too late Plod! 🖕 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Tragic story, he was one of those players you’d watch in the early ‘90s and thought, I’d love him here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) As more details of the prosecution case have emerged today it doesn’t look good for the cops. Still that’s just the case, let’s see what all the witnesses say. Edited May 4, 2021 by ED209 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 15 hours ago, ED209 said: What are the other facts of the case though? In isolation that sounds horrendous on behalf of the police however there is no context as to what kind of threat Atkinson posed. Kicking someone in the head and tasering someone repeatedly could be reasonable and lawful force in some circumstances of course on the other hand it might not. Kicking somebody in the head is never reasonable force. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Happinesstan said: Kicking somebody in the head is never reasonable force. As I have said under English law absolutely any use of force can be reasonable if the circumstances justify it, this includes kicking someone in the head or anything else you could possibly imagine. section 3 of the criminal law act - (1)A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. Section 117 of the police and criminal evidence act - 117Power of constable to use reasonable force. Where any provision of this Act— (a)confers a power on a constable; and (b)does not provide that the power may only be exercised with the consent of some person, other than a police officer, the officer may use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of the power. In the summary given by the prosecution in this case the kick in the head doesn’t sound justified in any way but let’s see what the evidence says .. However to say kicking someone in the head is never reasonable is wrong in law and wrong in reality Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 @ED209please give up, you are wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said: @ED209please give up, you are wrong I am absolutely not wrong at all. In 24 years real life experience I have never kicked or needed to kick anyone in the head however that doesn’t mean I won’t need to today or tomorrow to defend myself or others. If I do I will sleep easy knowing that as long as my actions are reasonable, proportionate and necessary the law of the land will offer me protection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, ED209 said: I am absolutely not wrong at all. In 24 years real life experience I have never kicked or needed to kick anyone in the head however that doesn’t mean I won’t need to today or tomorrow to defend myself or others. If I do I will sleep easy knowing that as long as my actions are reasonable, proportionate and necessary the law of the land will offer me protection. If that is the case, you may learn some very harsh life lessons. As the prosecution summed up in this case: “Ms Healy said PC Monk was an experienced police officer of 14 years and would have known he risked causing Mr Atkinson "really serious injury" by kicking him in the head.” A kick is very different to a punch, which you could easily argue is reasonable and self-defence. Love it at 24 years old with no experience other than using Google, you think you are an expert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Jinx Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 Are there any other charges it can be reduced back to? Murder most likely can’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Even manslaughter would have to be open and shut ala Derek Chauvin. At the end of the day, there’s only so much training you can have to deal with mental illness situations. It’s tragic and it probably shouldn’t have happened but at the end of the day people have to be responsible for themselves too so the police don’t have to make decisions like that. If he was that dangerous and out of control, he should have been locked up in a mental health facility where doctors could monitor him on a daily basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, ED209 said: I am absolutely not wrong at all. In 24 years real life experience I have never kicked or needed to kick anyone in the head however that doesn’t mean I won’t need to today or tomorrow to defend myself or others. If I do I will sleep easy knowing that as long as my actions are reasonable, proportionate and necessary the law of the land will offer me protection. There's a difference between kicking someone in the head to defend yourself, and continuing to kick them in the head with "increasing force" when they're - by all accounts - already down and very likely unconscious after being blasted by a taser for five times the recommended amount time, like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 To be fair ED209 is addressing the blanket point that a kick to the head can’t ever be self defence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 34 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said: Are there any other charges it can be reduced back to? Murder most likely can’t be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Even manslaughter would have to be open and shut ala Derek Chauvin. At the end of the day, there’s only so much training you can have to deal with mental illness situations. It’s tragic and it probably shouldn’t have happened but at the end of the day people have to be responsible for themselves too so the police don’t have to make decisions like that. If he was that dangerous and out of control, he should have been locked up in a mental health facility where doctors could monitor him on a daily basis. Yeah the issue is likely to be whether the kick to the head was intended to cause really serious injury in which case murder. Or whether the kicks to the head were an unlawful act that didn’t intend to cause really serious injury in which case manslaughter. it’s probably where the self defence argument comes into play more. ‘My actions weren’t intending to cause a really serious injury I was trying to look after myself my colleague’. Albeit it certainly seems that it was at best in an entirely inappropriate and excessive way. Probably scope for doubt on the murder. Based on the non-evidential opening speech it sounds very much like unlawful act manslaughter. Murder conviction unlikely but probably more likely than a blanket acquittal based on the opening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 27 minutes ago, Andy said: There's a difference between kicking someone in the head to defend yourself, and continuing to kick them in the head with "increasing force" when they're - by all accounts - already down and very likely unconscious after being blasted by a taser for five times the recommended amount time, like. i agree 100%. The circumstances you describe and in the circumstances outlined by the prosecution case yesterday would make a kick in the head totally unacceptable. I am not defending the cops at all in this case. To make the point that kicking someone in the head could never be justified in any circumstances is very wrong though. It worries me greatly that we have someone on here that claims to have been a cop doesn’t understand that. If you have a cop who doesn’t know their powers with regards to the lawful use of force and as a result wouldn’t use potentially lethal force in the correct circumstances then every time they leave the police station they are putting the public, their colleagues and themselves at risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, ED209 said: i agree 100%. The circumstances you describe and in the circumstances outlined by the prosecution case yesterday would make a kick in the head totally unacceptable. I am not defending the cops at all in this case. To make the point that kicking someone in the head could never be justified in any circumstances is very wrong though. It worries me greatly that we have someone on here that claims to have been a cop doesn’t understand that. If you have a cop who doesn’t know their powers with regards to the lawful use of force and as a result wouldn’t use potentially lethal force in the correct circumstances then every time they leave the police station they are putting the public, their colleagues and themselves at risk. I’m still waiting for you to give me a (realistic) scenario where you can justify it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 54 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said: If that is the case, you may learn some very harsh life lessons. As the prosecution summed up in this case: “Ms Healy said PC Monk was an experienced police officer of 14 years and would have known he risked causing Mr Atkinson "really serious injury" by kicking him in the head.” A kick is very different to a punch, which you could easily argue is reasonable and self-defence. Love it at 24 years old with no experience other than using Google, you think you are an expert. The prosecution haven’t summed up yet. That comes after the evidence has been heard. I am not sure why you doubt me and I don’t really care to be honest. I am comfortable with my level of knowledge and I am fairly sure that my colleagues trust my decision making in tough situations. What you think is neither here nor there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said: I’m still waiting for you to give me a (realistic) scenario where you can justify it. You attend a report of domestic violence, when you get to the door of the house it’s open, you here a female screaming inside. You run in and in the living room you see a female lying on the floor with a male straddling her, pinning her to the floor. He has a large knife in his hand, there’s blood on her clothing, he’s already stabbed her once, he’s just about to plunge the knife into her chest. You aren’t trained to use taser. You have literally a second to form a plan and act or she is probably going to die. What do you do? You kick his head as hard as you possibly can using every ounce of strength you can muster. To make sure he cannot stab her and he cannot turn on you justified? 100% lawful 100% realistic enough for you? I know it is because about 15 years ago I went to a very similar job, arrived to find male straddling female with a pillow pushed firmly into her face. Too late on this occasion though as she was dead. Edited May 5, 2021 by ED209 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 Just now, ED209 said: You attend a report of domestic violence, when you get to the door of the house it’s open, you here a female screaming inside. You run in and in the living room you see a female lying on the floor with a male straddling her, pinning her to the floor. He has a large knife in his hand, there’s blood on her clothing, he’s already stabbed her once, he’s just about to plunge the knife into her chest. You aren’t trained to use taser. You have literally a second to form a plan and act or she is probably going to die. What do you do? You kick his head as hard as you possibly can using every ounce of strength you can muster. To make sure he cannot stab her and he cannot turn on you justified? 100% lawful 100% No. There are several more proportionate acts to take before you boot someone in the head ‘with every ounce of strength you can muster’. Your own example is telling me you are using excessive force. https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/public-order/core-principles-and-legislation/police-use-of-force/ Might be worthwhile for you to get a better understanding of what is ‘reasonable’. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED209 Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 You don’t kick him in the head as hard as you can she dies. You don’t have time to read sodding APP or weight up the precise niceties of the situation. You act immediately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ED209 said: You don’t kick him in the head as hard as you can she dies. You don’t have time to read sodding APP or weight up the precise niceties of the situation. You act immediately. Correct. But would it be more proportionate and reasonable to run in and rugby tackle him off of her in order to disarm him? Or, could you use your baton to strike the arm holding the knife to disarm him? Two acts which would protect her life without the need to put his life at a serious risk. As I’ve pointed out, only the minimum level of force required to achieve the objective is lawful. This is where your argument falls down, every time. The sheer arrogance of you thinking you are right is the worst part You’re speaking so confidently but so wrongly. You have no knowledge of this area apart from your own ignorance and Google searches. Many people have now told you that you are wrong, including someone who has vast experience in the training and practical work. Edited May 5, 2021 by Fantail Breeze spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now