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UK Politics - Generation Tory


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3 minutes ago, neesy111 said:

I agree with this as well.

I thought the pandemic would shift people to thinking about community etc more, but everyone thinks clapping for the NHS is enough.

I think it's a bit early to conclude that. It has to be an avenue that's worth exploring at least.

We need to remember that we don't need to win every voter, and especially not the mental twitter ones. 

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21 minutes ago, Wullie said:

Think I remember posting something at the start of the pandemic like "surely this is the end of the Taxpayers Alliance, 'we need a tiny state' brigade?"

What a naive dickhead.

:lol: Not sure I went that far but I had hoped the English public might have ceased for just a little while but aye, nee chance.

Although I will say tbf to Starmer whatever he did would be portrayed as the wrong thing to do but IMO he should have and should be all over social inequalities affecting likelihood of getting sick, why were we so unprepared, imagine if we'd hadn't had 10 years of cuts etc. etc. . Not like there's not fucking loads of data on it. Would it win votes? Probably not. Are you ever going to win those votes? Probably not.

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23 hours ago, ElDiablo said:

It's just straight up political illiteracy. Rife throughout the entire country.

It made me think more immediately of the Netflix documentary "The Great Hack" https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80117542

Wouldn't surprise me to find out in the future that Hartlepool voters have all been manipulated in the same way as this...

 

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Posted (edited)

I think it's difficult to say how much 'the public' (whoever they are) agree or not with those ideas of justice etc, when nobody ever gives them a chance. Maybe it would become less socially-acceptable to be a fucking idiot if the message was a little bit in the other direction.

Labour basically just need to get real about what they're for, and push that tirelessly for the next 5+ years regardless of elections. Starmer is probably not the man to do that given his approach so far, we need someone more lively and more fearless. Obviously the party needs to be brave enough to identify and elect that person and stand behind them. Also, it's possible they may not exist.

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

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16 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I think it's difficult to say how much 'the public' (whoever they are) agree or not with those ideas of justice etc, when nobody ever gives them a chance. Maybe it would become less socially-acceptable to be a fucking idiot if the message was a little bit in the other direction.

Labour basically just need to get real about what they're for, and push that tirelessly for the next 5+ years regardless of elections. Starmer is probably not the man to do that given his approach so far, we need someone more lively and more fearless. Obviously the party needs to be brave enough to identify and elect that person and stand behind them. Also, it's possible they may not exist.

I've been saying it for years, but it's time Labour had a female leader.

The most impressive responses world-wide during lockdown were the countries that were led by women.

It's an odd fact, but the majority of Daily Mail readers are female.

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Posted (edited)

This is our problem though, is it not? The same question applies to the Tories and should invoke the same :anguish: reaction when you think about it. Johnson, May, Cameron. Gove, Sunak, Truss, Raab, Patel...

Thing for them is the party generally aligns behind them. Labour don't. You could argue that's because Labour aren't fit for purpose any more because of the splits in the left vote but, as we've seen, ideological splits are very present in the Tory party so if Labour isn't fit for purpose, the Tories aren't either. I mean, we all know this. Our electoral system isn't fit for purpose. And the only plans in the pipeline to reform it are going to make it worse still. Funny what you can achieve when you make some sacrifices to get in to power. Wasn't so long ago we were potentially going for AV. Now it's carving up of constituencies. What progress. 

We expect too much in too little time. MVP, man. What is "good enough"? Then we can plan the next step and change from there. Fucking killing ourselves man. 

 

 

Edited by Super Duper Branko Strupar

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1 hour ago, Disco said:

I'm just pleased it only works one way. Handy that. 

Anyway, loads of them (us wretched elites who have ruined everything) might not be able to vote moving forward so you'll have to find someone else to blame. 

:thup: will cross that bridge when we come to it. In the meantime, spend as long as you like monitoring how well it works when you have nothing but disdain for people who aren't on the same page as you are, right and left alike. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

This is our problem though, is it not? The same question applies to the Tories and should invoke the same :anguish: reaction when you think about it. Johnson, May, Cameron. Gove, Sunak, Truss, Raab, Patel...

Thing for them is the party generally aligns behind them. Labour don't. You could argue that's because Labour aren't fit for purpose any more because of the splits in the left vote but, as we've seen, ideological splits are very present in the Tory party so if Labour isn't fit for purpose, the Tories aren't either. I mean, we all know this. Our electoral system isn't fit for purpose. And the only plans in the pipeline to reform it are going to make it worse still. Funny what you can achieve when you make some sacrifices to get in to power. Wasn't so long ago we were potentially going for AV. Now it's carving up of constituencies. What progress. 

We expect too much in too little time. MVP, man. What is "good enough"? Then we can plan the next step and change from there. Fucking killing ourselves man. 

Aye, exactly. Do people think that everybody who votes Tory is in exactly the same place politically? This is exactly why I asked about the SNP yesterday. 

The Tories are fucking great at sticking together people from loads of walks of life and coalescing them around a common cause. We're fucking shit at it, we bitch and moan when it's not our own personal socialist heaven. We want the left on our own terms and we're not going to get it. It's exactly what I've just posted to disco about. It's not a coincidence that the Tories win more. They're much more comfortable in each others' company than we are, and that's all there is to it. They'll lose when they're shite enough and the left will get the chance to spend seven or eight years slowly falling apart again.

 

 

Edited by OpenC

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I agree there has to be bridge building on all sides. It just can’t be only the left giving up what they want because it’s somehow more ‘electable’ not to believe in anything.

I would like a really mixed Labour cabinet with people from all sides. 

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Posted (edited)

The thing about "it just cant be the left giving up what they want" is then we're relying on the other side agreeing to do the same as us. Refuse to bend on a belief and cause infighting amongst their fellow electorate and weaken the party. Good luck with that. We're so much fucking better at whining and being "righteous". 

Might sound harsh and sweeping but I dont feel the more right leaning people even believe in all that much. Not in the same sense anyway. 

 

 

Edited by Super Duper Branko Strupar

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Weirdly I've been saying this for years, but everyone seemed to prefer a focus on electoral strategy.

TBF it is a bit more difficult for the left, since they tend to be people of quite deep principles and passion for change, whereas conservatives can be the party of not taking any risks and keeping everything the same.

 

Missed this. Absolutely correct that it's more difficult for the left - the additional complication is that socialism demands sacrifice and an acceptance that you're helping out a proportion of people who couldn't give the first fuck about you and your politics and will often in your opinion not really deserve it, which is a tough sell of course.

 

 

Edited by OpenC

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Labour just aren't racist enough to be electable in 2021 England unfortunately, too much stuff about nurse pay and school meals, nowhere near enough flags, flammable cladding and gunboat. If Boris can find a way to justify Belgrano-ing a foreign boat near Jersey they might as well pack up. 

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15 minutes ago, Matt said:

Oh here's Ian with his 'but centrists don't believe in anything' line again. It's been a while. 

It's exaggeration for effect. That said, I do believe it's a fundamentally different approach to politics. If you were passionate about helping the people who need it most, you couldn't possibly believe that the majority of the current system should stay how it is. Maybe it's more of a principle v practicality divide, which we have discussed before and I admit has pros and cons. 

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Posted (edited)

FWIW I do genuinely believe that the left should admit more compromise and be more generous towards people on other sides. Despite some of my views I believe there are very good people with the right intentions on all sides, and I would happily build a coalition with them.

Everyone has to be able to hold their views strongly but discuss with each other in good faith. That's the essence of any grown-up compromise. 

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

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Posted (edited)

If you believe the majority of things should stay how they are right now, you would be pretty right-of-centre, at least economically.

 

 

Edited by Matt

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2 minutes ago, Matt said:

If you believe the majority of things should stay how they are right now, you would be pretty right-of-centre, at least economically.

It's always going to be hard to discuss this because it's so subjective and the labels aren't very useful. Better just debate the issues than try to define who is where on the scale... although I know I've just been doing it :lol:

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1 hour ago, OpenC said:

:thup: will cross that bridge when we come to it. In the meantime, spend as long as you like monitoring how well it works when you have nothing but disdain for people who aren't on the same page as you are, right and left alike. 

Oh it won't. I've posted that repeatedly and what my priorities would be but they'd probably be seen as elitist tripe. 

I just think it's telling elitism and disdain only works one way when those who are young, live in a city or are one of the myriad of the other undesirable demographics are once more told to shut the fuck up and fuck off. The level of disdain towards younger people in this country/society never fails to amaze me.

(and I know I'm one side of it albeit aside from posting on here I don't actually bother too much with politics outside of reading about stuff, would never join a party or owt.)

Edit: and I'm not even that young anymore either.

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4 hours ago, hakka said:

I thought Starmer was going to bring some intelligence and slick operating to Labour leadership. Seems utterly useless and unsure of what to do. Worrying for a leader to appear to be staggering around looking lost.

And yet people seem happy to vote for someone who ran and hid in a fridge. Madness

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