Jump to content

UK Politics - Generation Tory


Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, hakka said:

Why does the media focus so much on binary options? Weath tax or income tax. Why not a hybrid of both? Or raise cash from income tax now, phase it down with a wealth tax that will clearly take a longer time to work out and generate revenue.

 

Kier doing a classic Corbyn there, instead of saying "yes, a wealth tax" to her question and shutting her up from the off, he gets drawn in to the classic repeatedly being asked, asking why he's ignoring the question and looking shifty, even though his response is a yes implied.  Corbyn did it all the time with condeming IRA or anti-Semitism. Just didn't shut it down and do it from the off. He'd answer it in some long winded way that allowed space to be challenged repeatedly for not doing the obvious of condeming it short and fast.

 

 

 

 

Think it's a wider point that the left are just a bit shit at playing politics tbh and it's really something they need to get a grip on. Fuck knows what the answer is mind.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BlufPurdi said:

The left are, but this isn't the left, it's the experience 'winning' centre in charge now. They've no excuses for this bullshit, unless it's deliberate. 

 

The Labour Party centrists are so deluded it's incredible. They genuinely thought they could walk it if they booted out Corbyn and the left vote. So now they are the no mans land party, stuck in the middle during one of the most polarised times ever thinking they can still win from the middle even though Labour has lost that battle over ten years ago, just because it was winning formula over twenty years ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You'd think in the light of Afghanistan, we'd put a little less stock in the advice from that generation of leaders and senior figures.

 

They're so fucking arrogant, they'll not even look at the Democrats and see they did the right thing in trying to reach out to their left, but the reason Labour have completely hamstrung themselves is they rode the fucking wave of the antisemitism problems to win. How can they realistically turn to the left of their party now? They can't, they've branded them all irredeemable racists. It's less of an effect in the PLP, as other than Corbyn, most Corbynites have been neutered and kept, but it resonates right down to the left base. When you speak to lefties, they can't drop that, "why would I vote for people that think I'm a Nazi and did nothing to stand up for us?" And it goes far beyond 'the membership'.  

 

When you had RLB in the shadow cabinet, that meant they couldn't be too hostile, this is how it works. Biden bought off the Squad with promises, it bled down to their supporters to remain loyal. It won't account for everyone but it's smart politics. 

 

Although, who knows: 

 

 :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stupid question alert so forgive me and be gentle, just off back of wealth tax discussion but more about business. When we talk about taxing billionaires or business that make huge revenue's but base their head offices in places like Dublin where there is low corporation tax, why couldn't you introduce a corporation tax specific for businesses that do this? Some form of offshore head office tax to stop huge organisations taking the piss? 

 

The automatic defense of taxing corporations more is that they'll leave and base elsewhere, or we can't tax the ones more that already are doing it. So why not make that less attractive and more a level playing field? Im assuming the argument is they won't operate or invest here, but isn't that bullshit? If there making a killing selling in the UK they aren't going to give that up for the sake of losing some more tax on the profit. If they do surely another billionaire will step in who's happy to make slightly less for same thing? Hopefully someone can mop up my messy thinking / understanding in this area. :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BlufPurdi said:

You'd think in the light of Afghanistan, we'd put a little less stock in the advice from that generation of leaders and senior figures.

 

They're so fucking arrogant, they'll not even look at the Democrats and see they did the right thing in trying to reach out to their left, but the reason Labour have completely hamstrung themselves is they rode the fucking wave of the antisemitism problems to win. How can they realistically turn to the left of their party now? They can't, they've branded them all irredeemable racists. It's less of an effect in the PLP, as other than Corbyn, most Corbynites have been neutered and kept, but it resonates right down to the left base. When you speak to lefties, they can't drop that, "why would I vote for people that think I'm a Nazi and did nothing to stand up for us?" And it goes far beyond 'the membership'.  

 

When you had RLB in the shadow cabinet, that meant they couldn't be too hostile, this is how it works. Biden bought off the Squad with promises, it bled down to their supporters to remain loyal. It won't account for everyone but it's smart politics. 

 

Although, who knows: 

 

 :lol:

 

 

They'll be one out that puts the tories +10 in a few weeks, think the summer recess has helped Labour.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know if in Corbyn times the polls had closed there'd have been a million whoops, but interesting that most of the gains went to LDs from the Tory slump. Just another indication that Labour themselves have nothing to offer, it's Tories just getting sick of Tories. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cynic in me wonders if Starmer is on some deliberate sabotage insider job to completely destroy Labour… but reality hits and he’s basically just a fucking spineless spiv with a title. Aren’t they all…

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, HTT II said:

The cynic in me wonders if Starmer is on some deliberate sabotage insider job to completely destroy Labour… but reality hits and he’s basically just a fucking spineless spiv with a title. Aren’t they all…

The good points about him are - for the first time in a while - a genuine working-class leader. Born in a council house, no privileged upbringing, achieved everything he has off his own back. And seemingly a genuinely intelligent man.

 

The bad points are. The way he seems to be carrying out an agenda someone else -Mandelson? - has told him to.

His speaking voice is so bad,  fucks sake, even Thatcher got the speech therapists in.

His ability to be very forensic with the facts and still seemingly lose debates in the House, when Johnson just lies, throws in a few scripted insults and wins.

Blair used to have soundbites ready, and would drop those in and have the press quoting those rather than arguing who won.

 

On paper, he seems like the kind of leader they need, but he hasn't cut through, and the fact that so many focus on his Knighthood - when debating who is the most elitist between him and Eton-educated, loafer Johnson, is working against him.

I don't know the next move. A female leader? Or someone like Dan Jarvis? Clive Lewis?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Similar feelings on Starmer. His background in many ways makes him the ideal candidate. And looking at his history he's always had socialist leanings.

 

But the image he is projecting is Sir Keir The Centrist who doesn't really stand for anything.

 

He clearly needs voice and presentation coaching. But politically I can't help but feel there's more to him and for whatever reason we're just not seeing it.

 

I've been very much in the give him more time camp but it's starting to feel like it's just not working.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm more and more convinced that there needs to be a clear break with the idea of just playing political strategy and saying whatever it takes to try and scrape a few red wall votes. There needs to be leader and a party with some core principles and a clear vision for the country, with a firm optimism and positive believe that everyone in Britain can be given a chance, etc etc.

 

I know I'm on the left so I would say that, but I really don't think you're ever going to outdo the Tories on pure pragmatism. You need to make progressivism sound like this great club that any sensible person needs to be part of. It should be become almost impossible to argue against these kind of ideas, because they're so fundamental to how most people want to live.  

 

I'm very disappointed in Starmer and I think he has the potential to be much better. Ironically he seems to suffer from some of the fear and lack of courage in making his case that has affected left-leaning leaders before. 

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt think much of the public see Starmer as working class, despite that being the case. Talks posh and has a Sir title. I can't imagine working class looking and listening to him think "he's one of us". Hence why Andy Burnham feels to me like someone who could turn working class on side. Bit of passion, plain talking and some clear policies that actually help people would go a long way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Darth Crooks said:

When the game vindicates and promotes liars at every turn - what hope does anyone of that ilk have?

 

Well yeah, that's one of the issues. But I guess there's no real option except to try.

 

I think a Corbyn with less baggage, better management style and slicker presentation would definitely have a decent chance at making an impact. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

Well yeah, that's one of the issues. But I guess there's no real option except to try.

 

I think a Corbyn with less baggage, better management style and slicker presentation would definitely have a decent chance at making an impact. 

The sad thing is Corbyn, whatever his faults, was the most honest of them all, because he wasn’t slick, he wasn’t polished, he wasn’t always trying to say/do the perfect one size fits all perfect thing to say and do and he got vilified for it, he is a decent, moral, honest man IMO, too good for politics really. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HTT II said:

The sad thing is Corbyn, whatever his faults, was the most honest of them all, because he wasn’t slick, he wasn’t polished, he wasn’t always trying to say/do the perfect one size fits all perfect thing to say and do and he got vilified for it, he is a decent, moral, honest man IMO, too good for politics really. 

 

It's possible to be slick and polished whilst having the morals, convictions, etc. They aren't inherently bad traits.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

It's possible to be slick and polished whilst having the morals, convictions, etc. They aren't inherently bad traits.

It's not easy when you pretend to be something you're not, though. The likes of Prescott was slick as fuck, because he didn't pretend to be a posh twat.

 

Lamped a member of the public and got away with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The working class chat is utter fantasy. It’s all about portrayal and no Labour MP is ever going to portrayed as the man of the working class. 

 

Cambridge graduate Burnham would be wanted lynched as much as Starmer or any of them. He is as ‘metropolitan elite’ as is anyone who lives in a Labour city and votes for them. 
 

Thems the rules now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...