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UK Politics: Generation Tory


Yorkie
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I think nationalism's fine if it's in a country that's genuinely being exploited or oppressed by another country and their goals are purely defensive. Having a sense of national and civic pride is a good vehicle to get you there. I'm thinking Ireland, Cuba, Vietnam, Angola just off the top of my head without knowing tons about each of them. 

 

I agree that it's a double-edged sword though and instils partisanship and exceptionism that's dangerous unless reined in, especially when the country in question uses nationalism to play the victim in order to go out and be an aggressor. 

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1 hour ago, OpenC said:

On that, where do people generally stand on the presumably closely related stupid flag waving Little Scotland fuckwits, just out of interest? Probably time for a new thread for it tbh

 

 

 

You make sweet, sweet love to a St. Andrew's saltire but you shag a St. George's cross. Union flag, well, that's going through the motions sex like you've been married 300 years. 

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1 hour ago, number37 said:

You make sweet, sweet love to a St. Andrew's saltire but you shag a St. George's cross. Union flag, well, that's going through the motions sex like you've been married 300 years. 

 

:lol: concisely put 

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Nationalism as a tool for improving a nation as a whole for all who live there can be a good thing in sort of a civic pride way but it’s so rarely that and is so often a tool of I’m better/more worthy/purer than you because…(reason) so I deserve this and you don’t or whatnot. Patriotic and being a patriot likewise. Only this week the govt said it was unpatriotic not to want to break the law but to me being patriotic would be upholding the rule of law and good standards as a beacon to follow. Depends who you support I guess. 

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35 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Just in case anyone was still in any doubt. He's 'changed his mind' about an entire manifesto apparently. :lol: No shame, no authenticity, no credibility. 

 

 

 

 


It’s incredible how lightly he’s got off with lying so extremely in his leadership campaign. It’s like people can’t be bothered to say that you shouldn’t completely break the promises you make to get elected. 
 

Doesn’t reflect well on the political discourse at all. 

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It will essentially turn left leaning voters away from the party and some from voting altogether, which (sadly) is probably what he wants.

 

 

Edited by Klaus

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1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

Just in case anyone was still in any doubt. He's 'changed his mind' about an entire manifesto apparently. :lol: No shame, no authenticity, no credibility. 

 

 

 

 

 

He's almost as big of a liar than Boris, just doing it more underhand.

 

The labour party can officially fuck off from this existence.  Absolutely zero chance they are getting my vote.

 

 

Edited by neesy111

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Next election is going to be very difficult, have to give the Tories the worst possible defeat but very difficult to endorse what Starmer has done. 

 

Long time to go of course, who knows what the situation will be. 

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They're going to have to come to terms with the increasingly clear issue that their traditional but much diminished heavy industry and working class vote, and their newer vote which is largely a disparate bunch of folk with nothing really in common other than a desire to do the right thing, are to some extent irreconcilable - and even that second group is so nebulous and all-encompassing that it's hard to even keep them all onside.

 

Problem is, of course, that acknowledging that and picking a target means that increasingly a coalition is the only way to power and it's also very clear that there's no way they can get their collective shit together.

 

Add the SNP to that already difficult situation and the gig is royally fucked for a while yet I reckon

 

 

Edited by OpenC

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34 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:


It’s incredible how lightly he’s got off with lying so extremely in his leadership campaign. It’s like people can’t be bothered to say that you shouldn’t completely break the promises you make to get elected. 
 

Doesn’t reflect well on the political discourse at all. 

 

I imagine it's not something you would want to pay attention to or highlight too much if you're also in any way invested in him or the Labour Party and want to continue using lies as a line of criticism for Johnson and the Tories. 

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7 minutes ago, OpenC said:

They're going to have to come to terms with the increasingly clear issue that their traditional but much diminished heavy industry and working class vote, and their newer vote which is a disparate bunch of folk with nothing really in common other than a desire to do the right thing, are to some extent irreconcilable.

 

Problem is, of course, that acknowledging that and picking a target means that increasingly a coalition is the only way to power and it's also very clear that there's no way they can get their collective shit together.

 

Add the SNP to that already difficult situation and the gig is royally fucked for a while yet I reckon

 

 

 

 

It's been done to death on here, but the complete ambiguousness of what 'the working class' is means that people think of a social caricature that in reality is often well-paid before they think of a socially disperate group of folk who are in literal economic terms a struggling working class.

 

Labour could harness a coalition around 'workers' given that the clue's in their name and with the growing unrest at the moment, but as they're clearly a party that's trying to attract capital and Murdoch like a Blair tribute act, they're stuck in an area of complete stasis. They can't even fake it, presumably because 1 - the capital they're trying to attract might make the mistake of believing it and 2 - in 2022 it's a lot easier for the public to spot the fakery than it was in 1996. 

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I don’t think their voters are necessarily irreconcilable. Especially not now brexit is ‘done’ and more and more people are feeling the effects of capitalism delivering more and more money to the super rich. 
 

If you do the right thing by an immigrant or a poor worker in the red wall, the metropolitan liberals will also like you. 
 

You just can’t be racist and pander to the right wing press, but I truly don’t believe that’s what ‘traditional’ working class voters really want anyway. 
 

‘Treat people greatly and they will

show themselves to be great’ - David Brent. 

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

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Just as an adage to that, I get the impression that Starmer and co think they can thread the eye of the needle by being positionless and therefore being perceived as impartial and neutral. When imo that impartiality is a position in itself, is being perceived as such and has resulted in...

 

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5 minutes ago, OpenC said:

If it was that simple we would be in power I reckon, or at least in contention

 


Nobody’s ever tried it though, they’re obsessed with the old fashioned idea of moving further centre/right is the only way to win. 
 

And of course the opposition from the media that people like Corbyn face is a massive factor. 
 

The tide is shifting, just looks like there might be nobody in the UK willing to get on it. 
 

Also I think in general, the British lack of self-confidence is a very limiting factor. Nobody really believes that they can put forward a new way or that a better way of organising society is possible. They just love to complain. 

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

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16 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I don’t think their voters are necessarily irreconcilable. Especially not now brexit is ‘done’ and more and more people are feeling the effects of capitalism delivering more and more money to the super rich. 
 

If you do the right thing by an immigrant or a poor worker in the red wall, the metropolitan liberals will also like you.
 

You just can’t be racist and pander to the right wing press, but I truly don’t believe that’s what ‘traditional’ working class voters really want anyway. 
 

‘Treat people greatly and they will

show themselves to be great’ - David Brent. 

 

 

 

 

Not necessarily that specific example, but did the Corbyn years not burst that bubble for you a bit? I know it did for me. 

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Best take I've heard so far is from a colleague of my mam's telling her that the fuel crisis is 'the oil companies trying to force us to get electric cars'

 

You ever been so struck by a level of stupidity that it literally takes your breath away? :lol:

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15 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Not necessarily that specific example, but did the Corbyn years not burst that bubble for you a bit? I know it did for me. 


Not really, because the policies were generally popular. Corbyn was a flawed leader and the establishment came down on him like a ton of bricks. Which of course could happen again. 
 

My main worry is stuff like the party political selection system. I don’t think anyone bold or progressive is ever going to make it to the top of Labour. 
 

But it’s clear that the status quo isn’t working for anyone but the very few, and hopefully it’s going to get more and more impossible to pretend otherwise. 

 

 

Edited by AyeDubbleYoo

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9 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Best take I've heard so far is from a colleague of my mam's telling her that the fuel crisis is 'the oil companies trying to force us to get electric cars'

 

You ever been so struck by a level of stupidity that it literally takes your breath away? :lol:

 

:spit:

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12 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:


Not really, because the policies were generally popular. Corbyn was a flawed leader and the establishment came down on him like a ton of bricks. Which of course could happen again. 
 

My main worry is stuff like the party political selection system. I don’t think anyone bold or progressive is ever going to make it to the top of Labour. 
 

But it’s clear that the status quo isn’t working for anyone but the very few, and hopefully it’s going to get more and more impossible to pretend otherwise. 

 

Absolutely they were, does that not make you wonder why liberals (both within the party and the public) attacked them at the time as pie-in-the-sky and they're now throwing them out then?

 

Don't get me wrong like, Corbyn was an easy target, but he was also a convenient one for anyone who was going to feel those policies in their pockets.

 

 

Edited by Kid Icarus

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