Jump to content

Success at what cost?


Does it matter where the money comes from?  

438 members have voted

  1. 1. Does it matter where the money comes from?

    • Yes
    • No


Recommended Posts

Guest The Little Waster

What a strange world we live in when people think a journalist should not be critical of his publication's (part) owners.

 

I think it’s fair game people criticising this but do people think he stood up against his employer the same way he’s shaming Newcastle fans?

 

Its a strange world when you cant criticise a hypocrite ...

 

A hypocrite would be someone who says Newcastle fans should criticise but not do so himself. That's not the case.

 

All this playing the man instead of the ball is a bit pathetic.

 

As the journo is taking the Saudi dollar ( dinar ? ) hes not above criticism ...

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Little Waster

What would be people’s take if Rafa comes back? Would people lose all respect for him coming back in to work directly for and under the Saudis?

 

Or the players for that matter , or Stavely etc ...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The fans are an easier target for reporters. They won’t criticise a new manager coming in and working directly for the Saudis though, as they will want to make sure they have a relationship there for stories and scoops. Easier to just go at the fans.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What would be people’s take if Rafa comes back? Would people lose all respect for him coming back in to work directly for and under the Saudis?

 

Or the players for that matter , or Stavely etc ...

or the half time pint pullers.
Link to post
Share on other sites

What would be people’s take if Rafa comes back? Would people lose all respect for him coming back in to work directly for and under the Saudis?

 

I wouldn't. If anything I would expect him to put the city and football above world politics, because he will understand as well as anybody that these things are above him. He just wants a platform to do his job as well as he can, and for the right club. Fuck knows, he might even think that's in China, but either way I would always respect his decision.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What would be people’s take if Rafa comes back? Would people lose all respect for him coming back in to work directly for and under the Saudis?

 

I wouldn't. If anything I would expect him to put the city and football above world politics, because he will understand as well as anybody that these things are above him. He just wants a platform to do his job as well as he can, and for the right club. f*** knows, he might even think that's in China, but either way I would always respect his decision.

 

Agree with you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The fans are an easier target for reporters. They won’t criticise a new manager coming in and working directly for the Saudis though, as they will want to make sure they have a relationship there for stories and scoops. Easier to just go at the fans.

 

Yeah this is it. Bet they don’t criticise the managers who they’ll need for their soundbites, bet they don’t refuse to make the most of the media hospitality when they visit. Far easier to try shaming the fans.

Link to post
Share on other sites

With all the injustice in the world and all the murder of innocent civilians in every war going on now (nevermind what's gone on in the past), it's the takeover of a football club that raises the alarms? f*** off. Seriously. Until every self-righteous SOB takes it up with their MP's and governments to stop human rights abuses the world over, you can save your PC bollocks for something that actually makes a difference.

 

All this post has done is just show everyone that you've never been in the chat section tbh. There's quite literally a thread on the Saudi's that's been there since 2015 and likewise the U.S thread. Plenty on here put the graft in for political parties, organisations, charities, and in QuakesMag's case has even made documentaries about this sort of stuff. You're just showing your own ignorance by assuming this has only been brought up now tbh.

 

Again though, framing not wanting the football club to be owned by literal murders isn't a PC bollocks like. It's just not.

 

I've been in the chat section plenty in the past thank you very much. I'm far more aware of the atrocities committed by the Saudi regime than even the likes of QM.

 

My point was regarding the emerging noises in the London press who are suddenly questioning the morality of NUFC fans for getting excited about a takeover of their club. These hypocrites never made a peep about the vicious Saudi regime until stories of this takeover began to come out. The Saudi regime, along with the American and British for that matter, have been committing atrocities for decades. These w*****s don't mind all the killing but strongly oppose the takeover of a football club?

 

Tbf, there's nothing in your post that makes it clear that you're talking specifically about journalists to anyone reading it. Even then the point you're making in bold isn't really true, like. Agree that overall there should be a lot more attention on the Saudis though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It quickly becomes unclear exactly what the criticisms are here, in all sorts of ways. Are fans expected to actually do anything here? Or are they just expected to be slightly concerned about Saudi Arabia?

 

If the latter, of course we’d rather be owned by someone squeaky clean, I doubt any fan hasn’t thought about this. But for that to happen, and be a successful club, would really require a complete reorganisation of how PL clubs are owned and run.

 

I don’t like the idea of being funded by Saudi money, but I don’t think it’ll be enough to stop me supporting. Albeit with regret in the back of my mind.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I asked this in an earlier post but it was buried in the middle, so I'll ask it now.

 

We've had people making the point that they support the team not the regime for the last 13 years, so why does the same principle not apply now? The thinking behind it was that you're supporting Newcastle but you don't support Ashley and wouldn't defend or excuse him, so why not support Newcastle without feeling the need to defend or excuse the Saudis?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the opinions expressed, primarily on Twitter, are horrific. Building on what's been said on here it is very much possible to be excited about the end of Mike Ashley and the prospect of becoming an ambitions footballing entity again while having serious reservations about the track record of our prospective new owners and on a human and societal level being concerned about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. Journalists highlighting this shouldn't be shot down and some of the stuff on Twitter is a joke, but equally Newcastle fans cannot and should not be blamed for this.

 

Building on some very good earlier posts in this thread, many Newcastle fans will have concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, as do fans of many other clubs but this is not a footballing issue. It's not impossible to be excited by Ashley's departure, enthusiastic about Newcastle United once again being interested in moving forward and acquiring some sporting ambition for the first time in 13 years and still feel concerned about human rights issues wherever they occur in the world. These feelings aren't exclusive. You can subscribe to both of them. Newcastle fans do not hold power here nor should they. Human rights issues is not something for football fans to deal with. Be aware of, yes of course, but not to deal with and attempt to fix. Wider concerns about human rights should be put to the government not to football supporters. The UK government welcomes Saudi Arabia with open arms, as does our monarchy. 

 

The idea that fans bear some sort of responsibility for who buys our club is absurd. We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose our new owners, it's not a preference, not a political allegiance, it is modern football in 2020. We support Newcastle United Football Club, founded in 1892, not the owner. The supporters will be here before and after any owners are gone. But it is very much right to have concerns. Some of rhetoric on here and Twitter shows some up for the little morals they have.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Howaythetoon

Some of the opinions expressed, primarily on Twitter, are horrific. Building on what's been said on here it is very much possible to be excited about the end of Mike Ashley and the prospect of becoming an ambitions footballing entity again while having serious reservations about the track record of our prospective new owners and on a human and societal level being concerned about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. Journalists highlighting this shouldn't be shot down and some of the stuff on Twitter is a joke, but equally Newcastle fans cannot and should not be blamed for this.

 

Building on some very good earlier posts in this thread, many Newcastle fans will have concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, as do fans of many other clubs but this is not a footballing issue. It's not impossible to be excited by Ashley's departure, enthusiastic about Newcastle United once again being interested in moving forward and acquiring some sporting ambition for the first time in 13 years and still feel concerned about human rights issues wherever they occur in the world. These feelings aren't exclusive. You can subscribe to both of them. Newcastle fans do not hold power here nor should they. Human rights issues is not something for football fans to deal with. Be aware of, yes of course, but not to deal with and attempt to fix. Wider concerns about human rights should be put to the government not to football supporters. The UK government welcomes Saudi Arabia with open arms, as does our monarchy. 

 

The idea that fans bear some sort of responsibility for who buys our club is absurd. We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose our new owners, it's not a preference, not a political allegiance, it is modern football in 2020. We support Newcastle United Football Club, founded in 1892, not the owner and the supporters and we will be here before and after any owners are gone. But it is very much right to have concerns. Some of rhetoric on here and Twitter shows some up for the little morals they have.

 

:clap:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the opinions expressed, primarily on Twitter, are horrific. Building on what's been said on here it is very much possible to be excited about the end of Mike Ashley and the prospect of becoming an ambitions footballing entity again while having serious reservations about the track record of our prospective new owners and on a human and societal level being concerned about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. Journalists highlighting this shouldn't be shot down and some of the stuff on Twitter is a joke, but equally Newcastle fans cannot and should not be blamed for this.

 

Building on some very good earlier posts in this thread, many Newcastle fans will have concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, as do fans of many other clubs but this is not a footballing issue. It's not impossible to be excited by Ashley's departure, enthusiastic about Newcastle United once again being interested in moving forward and acquiring some sporting ambition for the first time in 13 years and still feel concerned about human rights issues wherever they occur in the world. These feelings aren't exclusive. You can subscribe to both of them. Newcastle fans do not hold power here nor should they. Human rights issues is not something for football fans to deal with. Be aware of, yes of course, but not to deal with and attempt to fix. Wider concerns about human rights should be put to the government not to football supporters. The UK government welcomes Saudi Arabia with open arms, as does our monarchy. 

 

The idea that fans bear some sort of responsibility for who buys our club is absurd. We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose our new owners, it's not a preference, not a political allegiance, it is modern football in 2020. We support Newcastle United Football Club, founded in 1892, not the owner. The supporters will be here before and after any owners are gone. But it is very much right to have concerns. Some of rhetoric on here and Twitter shows some up for the little morals they have.

 

Yeah well put.

 

It's the whataboutery I really can't stand.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the opinions expressed, primarily on Twitter, are horrific. Building on what's been said on here it is very much possible to be excited about the end of Mike Ashley and the prospect of becoming an ambitions footballing entity again while having serious reservations about the track record of our prospective new owners and on a human and societal level being concerned about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. Journalists highlighting this shouldn't be shot down and some of the stuff on Twitter is a joke, but equally Newcastle fans cannot and should not be blamed for this.

 

Building on some very good earlier posts in this thread, many Newcastle fans will have concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, as do fans of many other clubs but this is not a footballing issue. It's not impossible to be excited by Ashley's departure, enthusiastic about Newcastle United once again being interested in moving forward and acquiring some sporting ambition for the first time in 13 years and still feel concerned about human rights issues wherever they occur in the world. These feelings aren't exclusive. You can subscribe to both of them. Newcastle fans do not hold power here nor should they. Human rights issues is not something for football fans to deal with. Be aware of, yes of course, but not to deal with and attempt to fix. Wider concerns about human rights should be put to the government not to football supporters. The UK government welcomes Saudi Arabia with open arms, as does our monarchy. 

 

The idea that fans bear some sort of responsibility for who buys our club is absurd. We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose our new owners, it's not a preference, not a political allegiance, it is modern football in 2020. We support Newcastle United Football Club, founded in 1892, not the owner. The supporters will be here before and after any owners are gone. But it is very much right to have concerns. Some of rhetoric on here and Twitter shows some up for the little morals they have.

 

Well said.

 

That's basically where I'm at with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the most annoying things to come out of all this is journalists using the "you think Ashley was reprehensible, this lot are on a whole other level!" argument. The hatred for Ashley stems from the absolutely shameful way he, often deliberately, mismanaged the club, not his other misdemeanours. Had he approached things in the correct way there would never have been calls for his head (pardon the pun), regardless of how disgraceful the conditions were for workers in his tat warehouses. We all know that.

 

My overall take on this is that we as fans should enjoy the ride we look set to go on, whilst refraining from fawning over the Saudi royal family as our wonderful saviours. We form the bottom rung on this fucked-up ladder and there's very little that we can do that would affect matters. Be mindful of where the investment is coming from by all means, and don't fly the Saudi flag in your social media names like some weird obsessive teenagers, but don't feel guilty for supporting your club. We've waited a very long time for this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having mulled this over for a few days I've kind of reached a settled view on it.

 

It cannot be right that you should have to, or be expected to, forfeit your support for your football club by virtue of who happens to be rich enough to afford it.

 

The difficulty here is that the new owners are highly undesirable. I have no time for arguments about the actions of other Nations or organisations. Quite simply the Saudi Regime is abhorrent by western standards. Women and Minorities are oppressed to a ridiculous degree. There is precious little democratic participation, peaceful freedom of speech is cracked down upon. Torture is commonplace and systematic in order to maintain a pretty bleak status quo. What goes on in other areas, by other States or Corporations can not circumvent the quite legitimate criticisms of Saudi Arabia.

 

This leaves supporters in a difficult position morally. The faults of Saudi Arabia should not be laid at the feet of Newcastle supporters. We are not responsible for what goes on in the Kingdom. It is far more equitable to question the role of the Premier League in allowing Sovereign States as questionable as Saudi Arabia to buy football clubs in the United Kingdom. Even then, sport has traditionally been apoltical and for good reason. Morality has long been absent from the Premier League.

 

I will continue to support the team, but there will be an awkward reluctance to it. I will look to not put money directly into the club.  I would hope that fans who like me continue to support the team continue to recognise the deep problems with the owners and do not glamorise or gloss over the evils of the house of Saud.

 

I hope their ownership presents an opportunity to generate more criticism and discussion of the regime and its practices. Newcastle fans can be an important part of that without forfeiting their right to support their club.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having mulled this over for a few days I've kind of reached a settled view on it.

 

It cannot be right that you should have to, or be expected to, forfeit your support for your football club by virtue of who happens to be rich enough to afford it.

 

The difficulty here is that the new owners are highly undesirable. I have no time for arguments about the actions of other Nations or organisations. Quite simply the Saudi Regime is abhorrent by western standards. Women and Minorities are oppressed to a ridiculous degree. There is precious little democratic participation, peaceful freedom of speech is cracked down upon and torture is commonplace and systematic in order to maintain a pretty bleak status quo. What goes on in other areas, by other states or corporations can not circumvent the quite legitimate criticisms of Saudi Arabia.

 

This leaves supporters in a difficult position morally. The faults of Saudi Arabia should not be laid at the feet of Newcastle supporters. We are not responsible for what goes on in the Kingdom. It is fair more equitable to question the role of the Premier League in allowing Sovereign States as questionable as Saudi Arabia to buy football clubs in the United Kingdom. Even then, sport has traditionally been apoltical and for good reason. Morality has long been absent from the Premier League.

 

I will continue to support the team, but there will be an awkward reluctance to it. I will look to not put money directly into the club.  I would hope that fans who like me continue to support the team continue to recognise the deep problems with the owners and do not glamorise or gloss over the evils of the house of Saud.

 

I hope their ownership presents an opportunity to generate more criticism and discussion of the regime and its practices. Newcastle fans can be an important part of that without forfeiting their right to support their club.

 

:thup:

 

This is very similar to my POV.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the opinions expressed, primarily on Twitter, are horrific. Building on what's been said on here it is very much possible to be excited about the end of Mike Ashley and the prospect of becoming an ambitions footballing entity again while having serious reservations about the track record of our prospective new owners and on a human and societal level being concerned about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia. Journalists highlighting this shouldn't be shot down and some of the stuff on Twitter is a joke, but equally Newcastle fans cannot and should not be blamed for this.

 

Building on some very good earlier posts in this thread, many Newcastle fans will have concerns about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, as do fans of many other clubs but this is not a footballing issue. It's not impossible to be excited by Ashley's departure, enthusiastic about Newcastle United once again being interested in moving forward and acquiring some sporting ambition for the first time in 13 years and still feel concerned about human rights issues wherever they occur in the world. These feelings aren't exclusive. You can subscribe to both of them. Newcastle fans do not hold power here nor should they. Human rights issues is not something for football fans to deal with. Be aware of, yes of course, but not to deal with and attempt to fix. Wider concerns about human rights should be put to the government not to football supporters. The UK government welcomes Saudi Arabia with open arms, as does our monarchy. 

 

The idea that fans bear some sort of responsibility for who buys our club is absurd. We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose our new owners, it's not a preference, not a political allegiance, it is modern football in 2020. We support Newcastle United Football Club, founded in 1892, not the owner. The supporters will be here before and after any owners are gone. But it is very much right to have concerns. Some of rhetoric on here and Twitter shows some up for the little morals they have.

 

So much this. I have no idea why so many seem to think that it is wrong to not suddenly be in love with saudi arabia and assume we're thick enough not to know there's horrendous immorality everywhere. It is a side effect of the desperate cash grab that is modern sport that folk like Saudi Arabia get involved, and that it is so financially expensive noone but billionaire twats can. This does not mean a) I'm any more of a hypocrite than anyone b) I am not looking forward to having a club with ambition again. Having misgivings and concerns about how things are going and also having hope is not just not unusual it is quite frankly way more normal than people desperate to give Mohammed Bin Salman teh nobel peace prize right now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having mulled this over for a few days I've kind of reached a settled view on it.

 

It cannot be right that you should have to, or be expected to, forfeit your support for your football club by virtue of who happens to be rich enough to afford it.

 

The difficulty here is that the new owners are highly undesirable. I have no time for arguments about the actions of other Nations or organisations. Quite simply the Saudi Regime is abhorrent by western standards. Women and Minorities are oppressed to a ridiculous degree. There is precious little democratic participation, peaceful freedom of speech is cracked down upon and torture is commonplace and systematic in order to maintain a pretty bleak status quo. What goes on in other areas, by other states or corporations can not circumvent the quite legitimate criticisms of Saudi Arabia.

 

This leaves supporters in a difficult position morally. The faults of Saudi Arabia should not be laid at the feet of Newcastle supporters. We are not responsible for what goes on in the Kingdom. It is fair more equitable to question the role of the Premier League in allowing Sovereign States as questionable as Saudi Arabia to buy football clubs in the United Kingdom. Even then, sport has traditionally been apoltical and for good reason. Morality has long been absent from the Premier League.

 

I will continue to support the team, but there will be an awkward reluctance to it. I will look to not put money directly into the club.  I would hope that fans who like me continue to support the team continue to recognise the deep problems with the owners and do not glamorise or gloss over the evils of the house of Saud.

 

I hope their ownership presents an opportunity to generate more criticism and discussion of the regime and its practices. Newcastle fans can be an important part of that without forfeiting their right to support their club.

 

Good post and fair point on the Premier League, but when the UK government welcomes them with open arms and actively encourages trade this is not going to happen and this sort of change needs to come from the very top.

 

Current UK Government position.

 

Our mission

 

We develop and maintain the long-standing relationship between the UK and Saudi Arabia. We build on the bilateral relationship between our two governments and peoples, especially in the areas of trade and investment, education, culture, energy and climate security, and defence.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Best post so far on this from SGTF I think, particularly the point about the Premier League.

 

:thup:

 

I think the Premier League might be in for a bit of shock after we get back to normality in terms of the bubble bursting when it comes to income. 

 

 

Not sure if it's just me, but I really haven't missed football at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...