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Success at what cost?


Does it matter where the money comes from?  

438 members have voted

  1. 1. Does it matter where the money comes from?

    • Yes
    • No


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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

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Agree wholeheartedly, Greg. The most meaningful and significant pressure should come from the UK Govt, football pales in comparison.

 

:thup:

 

Sadly nothing will change with the current lot in government, it'll probably get worse as they scramble for any trade deal possible.

 

The best thing we can hope for is it brings many people aware of what the abuses Saudi Arabia are doing.

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Having mulled this over for a few days I've kind of reached a settled view on it.

 

It cannot be right that you should have to, or be expected to, forfeit your support for your football club by virtue of who happens to be rich enough to afford it.

 

The difficulty here is that the new owners are highly undesirable. I have no time for arguments about the actions of other Nations or organisations. Quite simply the Saudi Regime is abhorrent by western standards. Women and Minorities are oppressed to a ridiculous degree. There is precious little democratic participation, peaceful freedom of speech is cracked down upon and torture is commonplace and systematic in order to maintain a pretty bleak status quo. What goes on in other areas, by other states or corporations can not circumvent the quite legitimate criticisms of Saudi Arabia.

 

This leaves supporters in a difficult position morally. The faults of Saudi Arabia should not be laid at the feet of Newcastle supporters. We are not responsible for what goes on in the Kingdom. It is fair more equitable to question the role of the Premier League in allowing Sovereign States as questionable as Saudi Arabia to buy football clubs in the United Kingdom. Even then, sport has traditionally been apoltical and for good reason. Morality has long been absent from the Premier League.

 

I will continue to support the team, but there will be an awkward reluctance to it. I will look to not put money directly into the club.  I would hope that fans who like me continue to support the team continue to recognise the deep problems with the owners and do not glamorise or gloss over the evils of the house of Saud.

 

I hope their ownership presents an opportunity to generate more criticism and discussion of the regime and its practices. Newcastle fans can be an important part of that without forfeiting their right to support their club.

 

Good post and fair point on the Premier League, but when the UK government welcomes them with open arms and actively encourages trade this is not going to happen and this sort of change needs to come from the very top.

 

Current UK Government position.

 

Our mission

 

We develop and maintain the long-standing relationship between the UK and Saudi Arabia. We build on the bilateral relationship between our two governments and peoples, especially in the areas of trade and investment, education, culture, energy and climate security, and defence.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/26/truss-admits-uk-breached-court-order-banning-arm-sales-to-saudis-again

 

The government are complicit with them. Can't rely on them to servant benchmark or morality.

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Guest Howaythetoon

Having mulled this over for a few days I've kind of reached a settled view on it.

 

It cannot be right that you should have to, or be expected to, forfeit your support for your football club by virtue of who happens to be rich enough to afford it.

 

The difficulty here is that the new owners are highly undesirable. I have no time for arguments about the actions of other Nations or organisations. Quite simply the Saudi Regime is abhorrent by western standards. Women and Minorities are oppressed to a ridiculous degree. There is precious little democratic participation, peaceful freedom of speech is cracked down upon. Torture is commonplace and systematic in order to maintain a pretty bleak status quo. What goes on in other areas, by other States or Corporations can not circumvent the quite legitimate criticisms of Saudi Arabia.

 

This leaves supporters in a difficult position morally. The faults of Saudi Arabia should not be laid at the feet of Newcastle supporters. We are not responsible for what goes on in the Kingdom. It is far more equitable to question the role of the Premier League in allowing Sovereign States as questionable as Saudi Arabia to buy football clubs in the United Kingdom. Even then, sport has traditionally been apoltical and for good reason. Morality has long been absent from the Premier League.

 

I will continue to support the team, but there will be an awkward reluctance to it. I will look to not put money directly into the club.  I would hope that fans who like me continue to support the team continue to recognise the deep problems with the owners and do not glamorise or gloss over the evils of the house of Saud.

 

I hope their ownership presents an opportunity to generate more criticism and discussion of the regime and its practices. Newcastle fans can be an important part of that without forfeiting their right to support their club.

 

Another excellent post.

 

I’m not sure where my views lie yet. I’d just be happy if this brought about significant investment into the club in terms of facilities and the city that improved our grassroots level game, the club’s foundation and of course brought in employment and economic growth to the area the most probably.

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They're worse than Ashley, but I still want them to buy the club.

 

We can oppose things that our owners do away from football, without having to also oppose them for ruining our club and refusing to sell for a decade.

 

I believe this is the thread for this debate also, rather than in every single thread.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime? Do any of these people actually know the history of the kingdom and how it came to be? :lol: Perhaps a slight in-depth understanding of this history might shed a bit of light on the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

 

My overall point is that there's no doubt the Saudis are an oppressive extremist regime who can't be allowed to carry on what they've been doing for decades. Not only on a local but also a regional and international scale. The responsibility of that doesn't lie anywhere near Newcastle United fans though. And if people are happy to turn a blind eye to crimes of other nations/owners/criminals in their sport or league then they can also leave NUFC well the fuck alone to get on with it.

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We seem to have synthicized the criticism into this red herring of “Newcastle fans, by not being critical of the new owners, bear tacit responsibility for the transgressions of the Saudi regime.” Not a single person has suggested that.

 

“Enjoy the club’s success, but don’t be a disingenuous dickhead when it comes to highlighting the source of that success,” is a more accurate distillation of the point we’ve been making.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime? Do any of these people actually know the history of the kingdom and how it came to be? :lol: Perhaps a slight in-depth understanding of this history might shed a bit of light on the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

 

My overall point is that there's no doubt the Saudis are an oppressive extremist regime who can't be allowed to carry on what they've been doing for decades. Not only on a local but also a regional and international scale. The responsibility of that doesn't lie anywhere near Newcastle United fans though. And if people are happy to turn a blind eye to crimes of other nations/owners/criminals in their sport or league then they can also leave NUFC well the fuck alone to get on with it.

 

Does this matter? I appreciate its unpalatable to be lectured by armchair pundits but it doesn't mean there isn't a good point at the heart of it. If the truth becomes fashionable should it be ignored?

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

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We seem to have synthicized the criticism into this red herring of “Newcastle fans, by not being critical of the new owners, bear tacit responsibility for the transgressions of the Saudi regime.” Not a single person has suggested that.

 

“Enjoy the club’s success, but don’t be a disingenuous dickhead when it comes to highlighting the source of that success,” is a more accurate distillation of the point we’ve been making.

 

An interesting question to ask though, is how many people would be willing to actively protest against them when Haaland, Mbappe and Matty Longstaff are lashing the goals in?

 

 

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We seem to have synthicized the criticism into this red herring of “Newcastle fans, by not being critical of the new owners, bear tacit responsibility for the transgressions of the Saudi regime.” Not a single person has suggested that.

 

“Enjoy the club’s success, but don’t be a disingenuous dickhead when it comes to highlighting the source of that success,” is a more accurate distillation of the point we’ve been making.

 

An interesting question to ask though, is how many people would be willing to actively protest against them when Haaland, Mbappe and Matty Longstaff are lashing the goals in?

 

You know when Mike Ashley does something shitty in business and the news article always mentions the name of Newcastle United in there somewhere, and you feel a tinge of shame and disgust? We will probably seeing that happen in relation to war crimes.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

Alright, calm down  :lol: I didn't mention human rights abuses and you have misunderstood.

 

By justifying it, I am referring to those who are responding to peoples criticisms by mentioning Saudi investments in twitter, Uber, UK trade etc. People ARE doing this, and I think it's a non starter and we shouldn't engage.

 

Celebrating - I will absolutely celebrate Ashley going, didn't say I wouldn't. I won't directly celebrate the Saudi involvement with pro chants, banners etc. Not seeing anyone will, but think it's a bad show if they do.

 

Hopefully that clears it up for you

 

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

Is the success of Newcastle United more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within the reach of the Saudi oppression?

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

In the same way the cost of my phone contract is more important to me than the death of someone I don't know in Eritrea yesterday yes. I will be putting much more effort into addressing the former than the latter. I'm a human.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

In the same way the cost of my phone contract is more important to me than the death of someone I don't know in Eritrea yesterday yes. I will be putting much more effort into addressing the former than the latter. I'm a human.

 

That's exactly my point. All humans are hypocrites by default. We have a perceived powerlessness (rightly or wrongly) to change things we have no control over. NUFC fans have no control over who buys the club and what they do in their spare time. The responsibility lies with those who can make a change and in this case it's government/PL etc. Protesting against new Saudi owners won't stop the oppression. They might decide against buying the club and pump their cash elsewhere. My gripe isn't with questioning the morality of letting Saudis control the club. My gripe is with the condescending notion that if they do buy the club it's somehow our fault and indirectly implicates us in whatever abusive activities they indulge in. You're either fully up for the fight against injustice or you're not. Anywhere in the middle is hypocrisy (I include myself in that btw).

 

On the reverse side of the coin, I find the whole sudden waving of Saudi flags in usernames and memes cringeworthy. In an ideal scenario we'd get serious business people with acceptable levels of financial muscle to buy the club (who aren't involved in illegal or abusive activity), and they go on to build the club in the fairytale way we all dream of. The chances of that happening are remote unfortunately because of the way the PL has become and all the outrageous money that has been pumped into it. Football is no longer a competitive sport and is now a lucrative entertainment product.

 

Personally I'd rather it went back to being a real sport even if it meant I, a foreigner, had less access to the club I support and love.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

Is the success of Newcastle United more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within the reach of the Saudi oppression?

 

I haven't said that and I haven't even defended the Saudis man. I desperately want the club to be rid of Mike Ashley, and at the same time I hate that it's the Saudis who are looking likely to replace him. On a personal level, having the richest owners in world football doesn't excite me in the long run. Yeah we could win one or two trophies and celebrate them. But soon enough it would become everything I already hate about modern PL football. Incessant product saturation using the top brands in Super Sundays and Super Monday Night Football Pundit Wankfests.

 

 

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

Is the success of Newcastle United more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within the reach of the Saudi oppression?

 

I haven't said that and I haven't even defended the Saudis man. I desperately want the club to be rid of Mike Ashley, and at the same time I hate that it's the Saudis who are looking likely to replace him. On a personal level, having the richest owners in world football doesn't excite me in the long run. Yeah we could win one or two trophies and celebrate them. But soon enough it would become everything I already hate about modern PL football. Incessant product saturation using the top brands in Super Sundays and Super Monday Night Football Pundit Wankfests.

 

I only asked you that because it's a similar question to the one you asked Wullie. Agree on the rest. Man City to me are boring as sin in every way at the moment after the exciting first few years

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Guest Howaythetoon

I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime?

 

Why does it come as a surprise to you that people are more concerned with something they hold dear to their heart than something they don't?

 

It's important to me that NUFC is something to be proud of. I think it's the most important factor for me. It hasn't been for some years, but it is in serious danger of being even less so under the prospective new owners given their past and present. I don't think I need to have a long history of campaigning against Saudi Arabia to feel that way.

 

If my mother suddenly decides to marry a serial killer and I'm not happy about it, an argument of "well I didn't hear you complain when he married his last wife!" doesn't hold a great deal of water.

 

So the reputation/perception of NUFC is more important to you than the death and suffering of those unfortunate enough to be within reach of the Saudi oppression? Is that a fair summation?

 

In the same way the cost of my phone contract is more important to me than the death of someone I don't know in Eritrea yesterday yes. I will be putting much more effort into addressing the former than the latter. I'm a human.

 

That's exactly my point. All humans are hypocrites by default. We have a perceived powerlessness (rightly or wrongly) to change things we have no control over. NUFC fans have no control over who buys the club and what they do in their spare time. The responsibility lies with those who can make a change and in this case it's government/PL etc. Protesting against new Saudi owners won't stop the oppression. They might decide against buying the club and pump their cash elsewhere. My gripe isn't with questioning the morality of letting Saudis control the club. My gripe is with the condescending notion that if they do buy the club it's somehow our fault and indirectly implicates us in whatever abusive activities they indulge in. You're either fully up for the fight against injustice or you're not. Anywhere in the middle is hypocrisy (I include myself in that btw).

 

On the reverse side of the coin, I find the whole sudden waving of Saudi flags in usernames and memes cringeworthy. In an ideal scenario we'd get serious business people with acceptable levels of financial muscle to buy the club (who aren't involved in illegal or abusive activity), and they go on to build the club in the fairytale way we all dream of. The chances of that happening are remote unfortunately because of the way the PL has become and all the outrageous money that has been pumped into it. Football is no longer a competitive sport and is now a lucrative entertainment product.

 

Personally I'd rather it went back to being a real sport even if it meant I, a foreigner, had less access to the club I support and love.

 

And another good post.

 

I just wish they would all fuck off, let fans and local communities run our clubs and if that means there aren’t as many superstars who cares, I’d watch NUFC play in any league even with a bunch of shit players if I felt what I was supporting was something that belonged to me, that we owned and that went out to win lose or draw on our behalf.

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I’m going to back away as this feels more like a conversation over a pint than in a forum.  I’m arguing one side as I’m frustrated with the Newcastle bias. This is making people jump to quite large conclusion on where my moral compass lies. I don’t have energy to write long posts justifying everything.

 

I think you either accept it or you don't,  as soon as you start the discussion on morality then you begin from a losing position, as the negatives of the regime currently outweigh the positives.

Trying to justify if or overtly celebrating it (please no headscarves :anguish:) is just painting us in a bad light.

 

Is anyone justifying or celebrating human rights abuses ffs? What absolute nonsense. People are overtly celebrating the departure of the club's horrible owner to be replaced by extremely wealthy new owners. The two issues ARE separate and people will eventually have to come down off their high horses when the realisation of their hypocrisy sets in.

 

You still talking about journalists here?

 

I'm talking about people who are wagging their disapproving fingers at NUFC fans over this takeover, be they journalists, own fans or other clubs' fans.

 

Suddenly internet people have moral issues with the Saudi government? Is the concern for the victims genuine or is it just a fashionable topic to pontificate on? If the concern is genuine what have these people done to put pressure on their own governments to stop actively aiding this regime? Do any of these people actually know the history of the kingdom and how it came to be? :lol: Perhaps a slight in-depth understanding of this history might shed a bit of light on the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

 

My overall point is that there's no doubt the Saudis are an oppressive extremist regime who can't be allowed to carry on what they've been doing for decades. Not only on a local but also a regional and international scale. The responsibility of that doesn't lie anywhere near Newcastle United fans though. And if people are happy to turn a blind eye to crimes of other nations/owners/criminals in their sport or league then they can also leave NUFC well the f*** alone to get on with it.

 

Ah okay, so you are having a go at our own fans and presuming that the moral issues that people have with the Saudi government are sudden then. As pointed in my previous post, at least on here, that presumption is total bullshit.

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One of the most annoying things to come out of all this is journalists using the "you think Ashley was reprehensible, this lot are on a whole other level!" argument. The hatred for Ashley stems from the absolutely shameful way he, often deliberately, mismanaged the club, not his other misdemeanours. Had he approached things in the correct way there would never have been calls for his head (pardon the pun), regardless of how disgraceful the conditions were for workers in his tat warehouses. We all know that.

 

My overall take on this is that we as fans should enjoy the ride we look set to go on, whilst refraining from fawning over the Saudi royal family as our wonderful saviours. We form the bottom rung on this fucked-up ladder and there's very little that we can do that would affect matters. Be mindful of where the investment is coming from by all means, and don't fly the Saudi flag in your social media names like some weird obsessive teenagers, but don't feel guilty for supporting your club. We've waited a very long time for this.

 

This wholeheartedly

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