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freedom of religion vs. lgbt rights


Guest Invicta_Toon
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Christians...cannot and must not be forced to actively condone and promote sexual practices which the Bible teaches are wrong

 

Freedom FROM religion would be a better bet.

 

Essentially, these people are standing up for their right to be bigots. And yet they will also claim that their religion supposedly teaches their followers to be good to others and not judge or condemn them.

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http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/01/an_obscentiy_against_human_rig.html

 

Halting progress

 

Protests outside parliament by religious groups tonight will represent an obscenity against human rights.

AC Grayling

 

January 9, 2007 02:30 PM | Printable version

 

There is only one printable phrase apt enough for religious groups seeking exemption from the requirement not to discriminate against gay people, and that is that their actions constitute an obscenity against human rights.

 

To obscenity add hypocrisy. Among the various items of deliberate misinformation being spread by religious groups about the anti-discrimination regulations is one that says primary schools will be obliged to promote gay civil partnerships on an equal footing with marriage. (Well, why not? Human affections and the commitments and comforts they generate are a great good.) As it happens the regulations do no such thing. Yet the law requires all schools to subject children to a "daily act of worship", aka stone-age superstition with a tendency at one of its extremes to end in suicide bombings. I look forward to the day we secularists rally outside parliament by torchlight against brainwashing children into the nonsense left over from the ignorance of humankind's infancy. In a choice between promoting civil partnerships for gays and obliging children to sacrifice a goat to Zeus, I'd go for the former every time.

 

One of the points being made in the debate over the anti-discrimination regulations is that people who run cafes and B&Bs who do not wish to serve gay people ("because it makes them condone gay sex" contrary to the morality devised in the sixth century BC) will be forced to quit their jobs and do something else. Tough. If they do not wish to treat other human beings equally, let them indeed do something else. That is exactly what we would say if they refused to serve black people, women, or Jews. The discrimination is the same, the unacceptability of discrimination is the same, the contempt one feels for them is the same.

 

And on the subject of Jews: what a disgrace that the stone-agers outside parliament tonight will include a Jewish group. If anyone should be against discrimination of any kind, it is a Jew. Alongside the Jews murdered in Auschwitz were homosexuals, wearing a pink patch where the Jews wore a Star of David. The despairing implication of the fact that Jews are joining Christian and Muslims - the usual standard bearers of intolerance and reaction - in this campaign is that too many people learn too little, never connect the dots, and repeat the ghastly errors of the past, when under the thought-inhibiting influence of such toxins as religious belief.

 

I write the above in anger. This effort to halt the fight against the evil of discrimination is a step too far by the religious, so ready to squeal like pigs when it is they who feel they are being discriminated against. They are trying to roll back the gains in civil liberties and the creation of an open society, which it has taken us centuries to achieve, from the time that Torquemada was burning people at the stake for incorrect versions of Christianity. Let people believe in fairies if they wish to: I would fight as hard to protect the right of the benighted to the stupidest beliefs as to protect the right of gays to equal treatment in all respects; but the condition is that they do not impose those beliefs on others, or the antediluvian morality that goes with it. And that is the line in the sand.

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Guest Invicta_Toon

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/01/an_obscentiy_against_human_rig.html

 

Let people believe in fairies if they wish to: I would fight as hard to protect the right of the benighted to the stupidest beliefs as to protect the right of gays to equal treatment in all respects; but the condition is that they do not impose those beliefs on others, or the antediluvian morality that goes with it. And that is the line in the sand.

 

surely a gay couple turning up on your doorstep demanding equal treatment regarding guest houses / wedding ceremonies is imposing their beliefs on others?

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http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/01/an_obscentiy_against_human_rig.html

 

Let people believe in fairies if they wish to: I would fight as hard to protect the right of the benighted to the stupidest beliefs as to protect the right of gays to equal treatment in all respects; but the condition is that they do not impose those beliefs on others, or the antediluvian morality that goes with it. And that is the line in the sand.

 

surely a gay couple turning up on your doorstep demanding equal treatment regarding guest houses / wedding ceremonies is imposing their beliefs on others?

 

They're forcing the vicar/host to go gay for a day?

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Guest Invicta_Toon

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/01/an_obscentiy_against_human_rig.html

 

Let people believe in fairies if they wish to: I would fight as hard to protect the right of the benighted to the stupidest beliefs as to protect the right of gays to equal treatment in all respects; but the condition is that they do not impose those beliefs on others, or the antediluvian morality that goes with it. And that is the line in the sand.

 

surely a gay couple turning up on your doorstep demanding equal treatment regarding guest houses / wedding ceremonies is imposing their beliefs on others?

 

They're forcing the vicar/host to go gay for a day?

 

no, forcing them to accept their behaviour as acceptable

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IMO, the law shouldn't be influenced by the teachings of religions that are almost 100% certainly fictional and based on humans' natural desire to belong to a group rather then any actually existing deity.

 

We must decide laws based on what we as human beings decide is civilised, so therefore I would say we are within our rights to restrict these homophobic and bigoted bans. Religion, like everyone else, must conform to the law set out by a democratic parliament.

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Saw a bloke on the news last night who ran a guest house and said he wouldn't allow gay/lesbian couples to stay in his guest house. Seemed like a bigotted wanker to me but in one sense I don't think there should be a law stopping him deciding who he should have staying at his guest house if it goes against his religious beliefs. It's a prickly issue though as you would presumably have to outline these rules in any literature advertising your establishment. Also, I wonder how people would feel if he was saying the same thing about people of a certain religion or ethnicity. Some people will perhaps say thats different but it's equally just a matter of him being prejudiced as far as I'm concerned. Tricky one to call though.

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Religion, like everyone else, must conform to the law set out by a democratic parliament.

 

In practise, it doesn't tend to work like that :D

 

Saw a bloke on the news last night who ran a guest house and said he wouldn't allow gay/lesbian couples to stay in his guest house. Seemed like a bigotted wanker to me but in one sense I don't think there should be a law stopping him deciding who he should have staying at his guest house if it goes against his religious beliefs.

 

Out of interest, was he banning Gays outright? The thing I've mainly heard is of guest houses and such banning them from sleeping in the same room (although I think the concern is that they won't sleep...). Separate rooms = OK. Agreed that it is a bit prickly... Ideally anyone staying in such a place would have the good grace not to use the law to take the piss. You're in Belfast, now, aren't you? Much general talk about it, there? Seems like a ploy to put Prots off the UK, to me :D

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Aye, he was actually banning them from sharing a bed I think. Although a gay couple told of how they were thrown out of a Guest House once in the same report. And, aye, it's big news over here in Belfast/Norn Iron. Paisley going ballistic a la his 'Ulster against Sodomy' campaign of a few years back. Clearly a closet hom tbh  bluewink.gif Mind, not long ago he condemned Line Dancing as the dance of the devil (or similar) so he isn't all bad.

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Guest optimistic nit

if you allow people to discriminate against who can stay at a place (or share a bed) then you could find yourself in a situation whereby a gay couple can't share a room anyway. if everyone didn't let gays share a bed or stay at a hotel then it would certainly be wrong wouldn't it, so i think you should not be alloud to discriminate against who stays in your hotel.

it is a prickly issue though.

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Aye, he was actually banning them from sharing a bed I think. Although a gay couple told of how they were thrown out of a Guest House once in the same report. And, aye, it's big news over here in Belfast/Norn Iron. Paisley going ballistic a la his 'Ulster against Sodomy' campaign of a few years back. Clearly a closet hom tbh  bluewink.gif Mind, not long ago he condemned Line Dancing as the dance of the devil (or similar) so he isn't all bad.

 

Aye, Paul Berry no doubt remains a touchy subject...

 

Felt sorry for those line-dancing Ulster folk. They don't get much joy in their lives, they think they find a "safe" pursuit, only to be told it's the work of the Devil :lol:

 

By the way, when I asked if there was much general talk, I meant amongst people you meet yourself, one way or another. I often find there's a disconnection between fuss in the media and the people on the ground, so I just wondered if it's a topic at the bus stop, kinda thing.

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Aah reet. As I see it, it's a bit of a hot news topic, but no one seems to be talking about it 'on the street'. I tend to avoid discussing religious matters with anyone here though. Mainly so as not to offend due to putting my foot in it tbh.

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Aah reet. As I see it, it's a bit of a hot news topic, but no one seems to be talking about it 'on the street'. I tend to avoid discussing religious matters with anyone here though. Mainly so as not to offend due to putting my foot in it tbh.

 

Probably not a bad idea.

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Don't get me wrong, the people I've met have been unbelievably friendly (making it a real home from home) but I'm not going to start asking about stuff I know (comparatively) little about.

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Don't get me wrong, the people I've met have been unbelievably friendly (making it a real home from home) but I'm not going to start asking about stuff I know (comparatively) little about.

 

Oh aye, definitely. I know the place and people pretty well, myself. Often find myself defending them when I find they're getting a particularly hard rap for existing. All the same, as an outsider its often sound practise to get a sure footing on those kind of matters.

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Saw a bloke on the news last night who ran a guest house and said he wouldn't allow gay/lesbian couples to stay in his guest house. Seemed like a bigotted wanker to me but in one sense I don't think there should be a law stopping him deciding who he should have staying at his guest house if it goes against his religious beliefs. It's a prickly issue though as you would presumably have to outline these rules in any literature advertising your establishment. Also, I wonder how people would feel if he was saying the same thing about people of a certain religion or ethnicity. Some people will perhaps say thats different but it's equally just a matter of him being prejudiced as far as I'm concerned. Tricky one to call though. - Alex

 

[/Parky]

 

Ethnicity and sexuality are different from religious preference in my view; because, whilst you have no choice about who you're attracted to or who your genes come from, you do have a choice over whether or not to be religious. It's a decision and as with any decision it should be open to criticism, and so, I guess in a way it would be more justified to discriminate based upon religion rather than sexuality or race. Having said that, I still don't think people should be discriminated against because of their religion, but it's a much more grey area than race or sexuality which are - pardon the pun - black and white, for me.

 

Regardless of that, it should be law that people who run hotels and guest houses, etc, should not be able to blanket discriminate against sections of society. It's part of their chosen profession and if they don't like it tough-shit, I don't suppose they like environmental health inspections either, but they have to have them.

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i wonder if this tactic has been tried

 

" no you can't come in..you're poofs and my religion is against it"

 

"what if we don't shag"

 

"how do i know you wont"

 

"well do you ask your married clients if mr is taking mrs up the gary"

 

just wondered like.

 

 

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