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Roeder, our performances & our results


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Guest Knightrider

I still reckon, faults and all, that Roeder can succeed here at Newcastle and by success I don't mean title winning success or even trophies and Champions League football, I mean steady top 6 finishes and UEFA Cup football which for the time being, until we can appoint/attract a better calibre of manager or try to (Freddy), is just about the level we are at or are capable of acheiving. Obviously if we are not heading towards such goals by mid-way point of next season, the real litmus test for me and the fairest or more truer indication of where we are going and not this season, then he'll have to go.

 

But...

 

Since he took over, our form or points tally puts us in 6th place by my rough calculations, and he has already achieved one European qualification so far, albeit through the back door of the InterToto, but then he was hardly given a platform to qualify via a top 6 finish after Souness' wrecking ball era was he. All this despite not being able to work with (so important and very underrated) and select from his strongest side since taking over, due the ridiculous injury situation he first inherited and then encountered more of.

 

I'm sorry but any side that loses the likes of Alan Shearer and Michael Owen and other key players for any sustained period of time and inherits many average players or players not quite good enough with little to spend to bolster an already small squad as it is or make up for such deficiencies, is always going to struggle, some to the point of no return, regardless of who the manager is.

 

We haven't suffered a point of no return, we've bounced back, and despite today's loss are still on course for a top 6 finish and further European qualification. Whether we will or not is another matter. I personally don't think we'll finish in the top 6 nor win the UEFA Cup, but I won't be too critical of Roeder should we not, I doubt even the likes of Fergie could do a significantly better job in the circumstances Roeder has not only came into but also encountered along the way.

 

Now I'm not making excuses for him here because I accept he is indeed an average manager and not really good enough long-term, but then who is at this moment in time? We have failed twice now to bring in such a manager, whether through sheer incompetence or otherwise, and I have zero faith in this board appointing the type of manager we require so sacking him now would be foolhardy, or even at the end of the season.

 

With a bit of money, some good luck and the ability to train and pick from his strongest side on a regular basis, I see little in the way of competition and indeed anything in our form under Roeder which as already noted is top 6 material, to consider the top 6 and Europe a foregone conclusion and it is only then, should we sack a manager when it is quite clear that man can not or will not achieve the club's goals - i.e. the point of no return.

 

I'd like to see him get a bit of money first without having to balance it with outgoings, to see how we fare with a stronger 11 out there on the pitch, one that plays regularly. He's a decent coach Roeder and not being able to lay down any real kind of plans training and coaching wise due to having to work with and shuffle between different players from one week to the next, has had an adverse effect on performances and performances are what will win you the majority of your matches, not individual performances from certain individals, luck and cannon fodder in the shape of mediocre Eueopean opposition, as we have experienced in many of our wins this term (thankfully).

 

Look at Curbishley at West Ham, he hasn't been able to work with in training or select from his better players and that shows in their performances, now contrast that to Pardew at Charlton who has. Why do you think pre-season's are so important and why many manager's don't like taking over mid-way through a season or find it so hard, because they know how hard it can then be to lay down ideas and instructions, to coach players to perform how the manager wants them to.

 

Roeder has said many a time this season he has had to shelve training plans and just do the basics due to missing bodies, or at times, not even have a sufficient number to work with in training, that is why he decided to introduce a few academy kids into the picture, training wise, just to make up the numbers.

 

Cast your mind back to the summer when he spoke in great detail about how he and his coaching staff were working hard with Emre and Parker, to develop their games, that all went out of the window not long after due to the pair picking up injuries and now you don't even hear Roeder talk about working with certain individuals' games because he can't, they are either injured or keep getting injured. How can he plan a training regimen for Parker and Emre for example that needs to be worked on every day, if the two are unavailable every day? He can't. Now apply that to the sqaud.

 

We have no real shape or cohesion as a team, we are frustratingly inconsistent and only perform in flashes, that is all down to not being able to fully work on those things in training with the whole squad and key players, the only way to iron out the creases is on the training pitch.

 

Any manager would struggle to build a consistent and cohesive team that performs well on the pitch if unable to fully work on those things in training every day. Liverpool in Benitez's first injury hit season were inconsistent and often performed shockingly, they finished as high as 5th and won the Champions League on spirit, individual performances and tactics. We are not fighting relegation and are in with a (small) shout for the top 6 due to our spirit and individual performances which have carried us thus far. If we were more tactically aware, we'd be higher, but Roeder is weak on tactics.

 

So...

 

Is it inconceivable to think, that by adding to our spirit and individual stars with a few better players and extra, concentrated coaching and training, that next season, we can finish in the top 6? No. We are only 7 points off that position today, despite having a torrid season performances, results and injury wise.

 

Sir Bobby Robson talked in great length about the troubles he faced when he took over the job regarding the training pitch and the battle he faced to work with what he called his better players on a daily basis, going on to blame our performances and results in the main, on that. I'm in no position to argue with a man of his experience or neglect to take such things into consideration, and neither should you.

 

It is all very well saying we should be playing much better and beating so and so, but you ask any manager where performances and therefore results come from and they'll say "the training pitch". Lovejoy pointed out in the post-match thread how we seem to lack any style that can be called our own, while many moans and groans have been aired regarding our poession, shape etc.

 

Well the answer to that is quite simple, and comes from the training pitch people, only Roeder hasn't fully been able to do his thing due to all those injuries. Once he is able, our performances will improve and with it our results, I firmly believe that.

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Guest Knightrider

Perhaps you mean Shearer as in a presence and as a figurehead as he was pretty much a liability for the majority of last season.

 

Yep, as assistant manager too. I must admit, if Shearer came back in that role, I'd be far happier and a lot more optimistic.

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So far Roeder has done best when we have had mass injuries because the team picked itself. ATM i dont think we'd be able to attract a good manager so sticking with Roeder would be best, Im worried about the next transfer window because i cant see us getting into the Uefa cup and i dont think Roeder will be able to attract any top players to the club

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Guest Knightrider

a fit Owen would probably guarntee us about 20+ points.

 

He could have been the difference like, all ifs and buts of course but the training pitch issue is very relevant in my opinion and often overlooked, yet read any manager's book and they all say the same when talking about performances and results. Fergie credits Man Utd's performances and title tilt at being able to work with an entire squad uninterrupted, where as last season and parts of this season, Wenger has blamed training ground interruptions for their incosistency.

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Guest Knightrider

we will never fail to attract players,  we throw mega wages at them that only champions league teams could offer.

 

This. We won't be able to sign your top players, but we'll always be able to compete for the better players because we pay good money, fees and wages, and even the thickest of players will realise the potential that exists at Newcastle. For all our pissing and moaning, we can be a great club to play football for.

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Guest WalkervilleMag

Roeder gets my vote to carry on next season.  few more of his buys, and hopfully a fit Owen and Shola back, then see how that pans out.

 

keep getting rid of managers after 18 months just does not sort anything out.

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I agree about your assessment of Roeder and his strengths and weaknesses, especially the fact that he is not a great tactical manager, but sometimes I just do not understand his team selection.  I think in a way having so many injuries has helped him, because the team has picked itself.  If a duo like Parker and Emre had stayed together, I think we could still have a central midfield that had big time problems, and Butt never would have gotten a chance.  Roeder just seems to have an inability to see things like this at times.  Another example was today, playing Taylor at RB instead of Solano at RB and Milner on the wing.  He just makes decisions that fundamentally unbalance the squad, something we really need with the lack of cohesion that we have.  While it will be great to have a full team if we actually get it, I'm afraid that certain players will never get a look-in, and tactical problems rooted in team selection will never be remedied. 

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Perhaps you mean Shearer as in a presence and as a figurehead as he was pretty much a liability for the majority of last season.

 

Yep, as assistant manager too. I must admit, if Shearer came back in that role, I'd be far happier and a lot more optimistic.

 

Why? Anything in particular that makes you think he'd be any good at it?

 

His dispute with Gullit clearly shows he's the type of person who will put his own interests ahead of the club, so as far as I'm concerned I don't want him in any role within the club now he's not playing until he's proven himself elsewhere.

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He can't seem to pick the best 11 out what's available to already. Why do you think that will change when everybody's fit?

 

The amount of injuries should raise concerns about training methods as well imo. Makes me think that GR will never have a full squad to choose from rendering your arguement academic.

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Roeder gets my vote to carry on next season.  few more of his buys, and hopfully a fit Owen and Shola back, then see how that pans out.

 

keep getting rid of managers after 18 months just does not sort anything out.

But you've proved how stupid you are so forgive me if your vote of confidence for Roeder is treat with the contempt it most certainly deserves.

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Guest Knightrider

Perhaps you mean Shearer as in a presence and as a figurehead as he was pretty much a liability for the majority of last season.

 

Yep, as assistant manager too. I must admit, if Shearer came back in that role, I'd be far happier and a lot more optimistic.

 

Why? Anything in particular that makes you think he'd be any good at it?

 

His dispute with Gullit clearly shows he's the type of person who will put his own interests ahead of the club, so as far as I'm concerned I don't want him in any role within the club now he's not playing until he's proven himself elsewhere.

 

Our performances and results last season under Roeder when Shearer assisted him, his stature at the club, his leadership, etc. etc.

 

I find your comments strange BTW, given that you'd take Bellamy back like a shot, a player who has proved he puts his own interests ahead of the club's first, where as Shearer has given the club 10 years of outstanding service and not once caused any problems.

 

I agree regarding your latter point, I'd rather he proved himself elsewhere before taking over as manager at Newcastle. But with Freddy in charge, that's never going to happen.

 

As an assistant though, he'd be handy for Roeder, especially in the transfer market. Say a hot young  striker catches our eye, but we face competition from Spurs, Liverpool etc. Who would you rather send out to talk to the young striker, Terry Mac/Pearson or Alan Shearer?

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Perhaps you mean Shearer as in a presence and as a figurehead as he was pretty much a liability for the majority of last season.

 

Yep, as assistant manager too. I must admit, if Shearer came back in that role, I'd be far happier and a lot more optimistic.

 

Why? Anything in particular that makes you think he'd be any good at it?

 

His dispute with Gullit clearly shows he's the type of person who will put his own interests ahead of the club, so as far as I'm concerned I don't want him in any role within the club now he's not playing until he's proven himself elsewhere.

 

Our performances and results last season under Roeder when Shearer assisted him, his stature at the club, his leadership, etc. etc.

 

I find your comments strange BTW, given that you'd take Bellamy back like a shot, a player who has proved he puts his own interests ahead of the club's first, where as Shearer has given the club 10 years of outstanding service and not once caused any problems.

 

I agree regarding your latter point, I'd rather he proved himself elsewhere before taking over as manager at Newcastle. But with Freddy in charge, that's never going to happen.

 

As an assistant though, he'd be handy for Roeder, especially in the transfer market. Say a hot young  striker catches our eye, but we face competition from Spurs, Liverpool etc. Who would you rather send out to talk to the young striker, Terry Mac/Pearson or Alan Shearer?

 

Aye, ok. Out fishing, I see.

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I still reckon, faults and all, that Roeder can succeed here at Newcastle and by success I don't mean title winning success or even trophies and Champions League football, I mean steady top 6 finishes and UEFA Cup football which for the time being, until we can appoint/attract a better calibre of manager or try to (Freddy), is just about the level we are at or are capable of acheiving. Obviously if we are not heading towards such goals by mid-way point of next season, the real litmus test for me and the fairest or more truer indication of where we are going and not this season, then he'll have to go.

 

But...

 

Since he took over, our form or points tally puts us in 6th place by my rough calculations, and he has already achieved one European qualification so far, albeit through the back door of the InterToto, but then he was hardly given a platform to qualify via a top 6 finish after Souness' wrecking ball era was he. All this despite not being able to work with (so important and very underrated) and select from his strongest side since taking over, due the ridiculous injury situation he first inherited and then encountered more of.

 

I'm sorry but any side that loses the likes of Alan Shearer and Michael Owen and other key players for any sustained period of time and inherits many average players or players not quite good enough with little to spend to bolster an already small squad as it is or make up for such deficiencies, is always going to struggle, some to the point of no return, regardless of who the manager is.

 

We haven't suffered a point of no return, we've bounced back, and despite today's loss are still on course for a top 6 finish and further European qualification. Whether we will or not is another matter. I personally don't think we'll finish in the top 6 nor win the UEFA Cup, but I won't be too critical of Roeder should we not, I doubt even the likes of Fergie could do a significantly better job in the circumstances Roeder has not only came into but also encountered along the way.

 

Now I'm not making excuses for him here because I accept he is indeed an average manager and not really good enough long-term, but then who is at this moment in time? We have failed twice now to bring in such a manager, whether through sheer incompetence or otherwise, and I have zero faith in this board appointing the type of manager we require so sacking him now would be foolhardy, or even at the end of the season.

 

With a bit of money, some good luck and the ability to train and pick from his strongest side on a regular basis, I see little in the way of competition and indeed anything in our form under Roeder which as already noted is top 6 material, to consider the top 6 and Europe a foregone conclusion and it is only then, should we sack a manager when it is quite clear that man can not or will not achieve the club's goals - i.e. the point of no return.

 

I'd like to see him get a bit of money first without having to balance it with outgoings, to see how we fare with a stronger 11 out there on the pitch, one that plays regularly. He's a decent coach Roeder and not being able to lay down any real kind of plans training and coaching wise due to having to work with and shuffle between different players from one week to the next, has had an adverse effect on performances and performances are what will win you the majority of your matches, not individual performances from certain individals, luck and cannon fodder in the shape of mediocre Eueopean opposition, as we have experienced in many of our wins this term (thankfully).

 

Look at Curbishley at West Ham, he hasn't been able to work with in training or select from his better players and that shows in their performances, now contrast that to Pardew at Charlton who has. Why do you think pre-season's are so important and why many manager's don't like taking over mid-way through a season or find it so hard, because they know how hard it can then be to lay down ideas and instructions, to coach players to perform how the manager wants them to.

 

Roeder has said many a time this season he has had to shelve training plans and just do the basics due to missing bodies, or at times, not even have a sufficient number to work with in training, that is why he decided to introduce a few academy kids into the picture, training wise, just to make up the numbers.

 

Cast your mind back to the summer when he spoke in great detail about how he and his coaching staff were working hard with Emre and Parker, to develop their games, that all went out of the window not long after due to the pair picking up injuries and now you don't even hear Roeder talk about working with certain individuals' games because he can't, they are either injured or keep getting injured. How can he plan a training regimen for Parker and Emre for example that needs to be worked on every day, if the two are unavailable every day? He can't. Now apply that to the sqaud.

 

We have no real shape or cohesion as a team, we are frustratingly inconsistent and only perform in flashes, that is all down to not being able to fully work on those things in training with the whole squad and key players, the only way to iron out the creases is on the training pitch.

 

Any manager would struggle to build a consistent and cohesive team that performs well on the pitch if unable to fully work on those things in training every day. Liverpool in Benitez's first injury hit season were inconsistent and often performed shockingly, they finished as high as 5th and won the Champions League on spirit, individual performances and tactics. We are not fighting relegation and are in with a (small) shout for the top 6 due to our spirit and individual performances which have carried us thus far. If we were more tactically aware, we'd be higher, but Roeder is weak on tactics.

 

So...

 

Is it inconceivable to think, that by adding to our spirit and individual stars with a few better players and extra, concentrated coaching and training, that next season, we can finish in the top 6? No. We are only 7 points off that position today, despite having a torrid season performances, results and injury wise.

 

Sir Bobby Robson talked in great length about the troubles he faced when he took over the job regarding the training pitch and the battle he faced to work with what he called his better players on a daily basis, going on to blame our performances and results in the main, on that. I'm in no position to argue with a man of his experience or neglect to take such things into consideration, and neither should you.

 

It is all very well saying we should be playing much better and beating so and so, but you ask any manager where performances and therefore results come from and they'll say "the training pitch". Lovejoy pointed out in the post-match thread how we seem to lack any style that can be called our own, while many moans and groans have been aired regarding our poession, shape etc.

 

Well the answer to that is quite simple, and comes from the training pitch people, only Roeder hasn't fully been able to do his thing due to all those injuries. Once he is able, our performances will improve and with it our results, I firmly believe that.

 

I firmly dont believe we'll be any better when all of our squad is fit.And thats because Roeder is average manager.He is tactically naive.Dont have tactical knowledge whatsoever.He makes some strange team decisions like playing our strongest team against Zulte instead of rested some of our important players for Sunday game.Not playing Nobby as RB,throwing this fat trol Car immediately in the first 11 when he got back from injury.All of these decisions were poor and thats because Roeder is as a manager.For next season were all of our players are fit and we have some new signings hopefully i dont see any big improvement under Roeder.He will make the same stupid team decisions,we are going to be inconsistent again with no style of play whatsoever.Sometimes im afraid of what kind of team selections he is going to make when all of our players are fit...

Finally i agree with you that until someone better comes available its better for our club to stick with Roeder.But he will never guide is to something more than mid table position...I hope im wrong...

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What will make Roeder any better at picking the best team when more players are fit when he can't do it now with the few he has?  He's not picking his strongets team on merit, he's picking certain players who are not good enough, Carr is the best example of this.

 

The bloke doesn't know what he's doing and that isn't going to change now, he is what he is.

 

Edited to remove typo, I had pickling instead of picking. :idiot2:

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Quite simply for me I have very little faith in Roeder picking the best side, he likes to accommodate players far too much for my liking.

 

Most people would agree he tinkered far too much with the side yesterday

Nobby should have remained right back as he's our best option

Milner should have played where he has all season

Taylor should have been centre back with A N Other.

 

Those decisions in time will cost him his job as I don't think he has enough about him to get us back in the top 4/5.

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good post HTT.

 

 

i do feel that roeder is very suspect tactically, but i also feel he is the person we needed to take over from souness, and i also believe he is the man we need to steady the ship as it were, at this moment in time.

 

he knows all about the club and how it works, and i believe he wil have us top 8 while he is here.

 

 

he gets my vote to carry on next season, simply because i believe he will not waste £ and he will have us in a stable position.

 

i would like to think that we will be lookng to move him on after next season however and getting a top manager in to take us to the next level, which i do not beleive glenn is capable of doing.

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good post HTT.

 

 

i do feel that roeder is very suspect tactically, but i also feel he is the person we needed to take over from souness, and i also believe he is the man we need to steady the ship as it were, at this moment in time.

 

he knows all about the club and how it works, and i believe he wil have us top 8 while he is here.

 

 

he gets my vote to carry on next season, simply because i believe he will not waste £ and he will have us in a stable position.

 

i would like to think that we will be lookng to move him on after next season however and getting a top manager in to take us to the next level, which i do not beleive glenn is capable of doing.

 

I'm not sure he's the right man in the long term, but he has limited resources with which to work, expectations need to be adjusted accordingly. Over the short term he is doing a reasonable job of stabilising the club after the debacle of souness.

 

I don't agree with his team selection yesterday but he made changes that he thought were required. You may think he put out a better side last Thursday but that would be wrong imo. We were pretty much outplayed last Thursday by a bunch of part-timers and in fact I don't recall the last time we controlled a game and won it.  Changes had to be made regardless of any further injury problems he may have faced and I don't think he knows what his best team is, if there is a best team. It could be "horses for courses."

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What will make Roeder any better at picking the best team when more players are fit when he can't do it now with the few he has?  He's not picking his strongets team on merit, he's pickling certain players who are not good enough, Carr is the best example of this.

 

The bloke doesn't know what he's doing and that isn't going to change now, he is what he is.

 

:o

 

If they aren't good enough, don't pick them to play but he's actually pickling them?  Does he think that this will preserve them for later on in the season when injuries will no doubt mean their sub standard abilities are required or is it some kind of unpleasant deterrent at playing poorly.  :D

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Where was the thread before Christmas, before the 4 important games (Bolton, Everton, Manyoo and Spurs)? That thread should be resurrected and merged with this one.

 

Some points were made then in that thread that is pretty much relevant now, but I can't seem to find that thread.

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What will make Roeder any better at picking the best team when more players are fit when he can't do it now with the few he has?  He's not picking his strongets team on merit, he's pickling certain players who are not good enough, Carr is the best example of this.

 

The bloke doesn't know what he's doing and that isn't going to change now, he is what he is.

 

:o

 

If they aren't good enough, don't pick them to play but he's actually pickling them?  Does he think that this will preserve them for later on in the season when injuries will no doubt mean their sub standard abilities are required or is it some kind of unpleasant deterrent at playing poorly.  :D

 

The point isn't that he's picking players who aren't good enough it's that he thinks they are good enough.

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What will make Roeder any better at picking the best team when more players are fit when he can't do it now with the few he has?  He's not picking his strongets team on merit, he's pickling certain players who are not good enough, Carr is the best example of this.

 

The bloke doesn't know what he's doing and that isn't going to change now, he is what he is.

 

:o

 

If they aren't good enough, don't pick them to play but he's actually pickling them?  Does he think that this will preserve them for later on in the season when injuries will no doubt mean their sub standard abilities are required or is it some kind of unpleasant deterrent at playing poorly.   :D

 

The point isn't that he's picking players who aren't good enough it's that he thinks they are good enough.

 

Oh!  I agree with that point.  It was the idea that Roeder is actually pickling players that aren't good enough (i.e. preserving them in vinegar or brine) that was giving me problems.

 

I don't rate Roeder in the slightest bit as a manager.  I think his tactical awareness, ability to handle pressure, team selection, handling of the media and all round submissive personality are major weaknesses. 

 

I've said it before on here.  I firmly believe that, had we appointed Roeder after dismissing Sir Bobby Robson, and, then, hired Souness when it all went wrong (and it would have gone just as wrong if you ask me), we'd be in no worse a position as we are right now.  Keep in mind also that I think that Graeme Souness as a top flight manager is dogshit.

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