fredbob

Right, someone explain the bolded part there to me. I'll straight honest, first off, that I do not think the club should sell Martins, I like him in the new system and his pace is very important if we have a relatively immobile CF in Viduka's position. He seems very happy at Newcastle United, and scores some crackers. He's relatively young (23, I believe) and could be a solid player for NUFC for 7-10 more years. The club's transfer attention should be on replacing Viduka and midfielders, primarily, imo. Not messing about with the fit and scoring strikers (Owen and Martins, top and second-top scorers, respectively). However, I do not agree with this bolded bit. I do not think Martins is the "lynchpin" of the system, nor do I think he's the most important player going forward who is the only person who can create anything for Newcastle. Personally, I think Martins was about the fifth most important player in the end of season success -- tied with Viduka, but Viduka should be easier to replace and needs it at any rate (hence my view that keeping Martins is a priority). Players ranked above Martins, you ask? In order -- Owen, Butt, Beye, Harper. In fact, those five (w/Martins) are the ones I think the squad should build around for next season hopefully with an understudy for Butt brought in this close season. There are flat BETTER players at Newcastle, and in fact, there is a better STRIKER at Newcastle United, than Obafemi Martins. Say what you like about Michael Owen, but he's far more proven in the Premiership and internationally, and was in fact the top scorer in both league and total goals this past season, as well as being club captain for the last 18 matches or so. He's a better goalscorer than Martins. That doesn't mean he can do it alone, and the club should try its best to keep both strikers, imo. But Owen's ability to play as the "playmaker" I think refutes the argument that Martins is the only player who can create anything. Anyone still arguing that Owen is one-dimensional...I wonder about your eyesight. Or at least whether or not you actually watched the last 10 matches of the season. (btw, I am not arguing that OWEN is the only one, either just pointing out on flaw in the argument above presented which I highlighted in bold). Martins is invauable to the team, i personally think equally important as Owen, Owens job is to retain possession in the final third and link up play between the midfielders and the forwards which he has done exceptionally well - he isnt a creator in the direct sense (Martins does have that feather in his cap, much like Bellamy in his heyday) but he is usually vital in the link up play before the creation of an oppurtunity, he also chips in with goals, some of which have been vital. If you look at Martins he creates oppurtunities in a different way, he is an invalauble outlet who can change the dimensions of play in an instant, how many times have you seen him retain possessio in the opposition corner when we've been under the cosh a little? Thats invaluable to a team, its a similar to what Rooney does at Man U on occasion - how many times have you seen him down the left flank on his own with possession? Also MArtins can thread a through ball occassionally and does put in the odd cross/shot, maybe that side of his game can be refined more but for me he is really invaluable. I agree that Martins was vital to the team's late season success. Without him, teams will find it very easy to stop Newcastle's attacking momentum because Owen would have no one as an outlet, or to stretch defenses to give him space (Viduka and Smith both sh*** at this). As I said, I think he's someone Newcastle need to look to keeping for the long term. The new 4-3-3 certainly wouldn't work without someone like Martins (preferably the man in question himself) to play there. Whilst I agree with many of your points, I simply cannot rate his importance above Owen (captain, "playmaker", top-scorer), Beye (strongest part of the back 4), or Harper (did amazingly well, imo) and I struggle to put him above Butt (played vitally well in the DM position) although I think Butt over the season was less consistent than Martins which makes it very close. I could accept Martins ranked above Butt, depending on various points of view. My only real concern about Martins is in the case of a return to 4-4-2 as the primary formation. It would be interesting to see Owen and Martins upfront together, properly (ie with a decent midfield 4) but if that fails to work...it could be very messy. The fans all seem to love and somewhat over-rate Martins (I think he's good, but hardly as brilliant as some on here like to argue) and if the partnership with Owen doesn't work, will the fans accept Oba playing behind Owen (Owen is captain, logically he'd not be benched)? Or will Owen get slagged off and abused because he's "displaced" the fan favourite Martins (ignoring the fact that Owen is a more established, consistently top-class player)? Will Martins himself accept playing behind Owen, or will he want to leave? He is, after all, 23 not 19 and looking to enter his peak years, and now is proven in the Premiership. Will there be yet more rumours of unrest, etc., at the club because two strikers aren't getting along? Ideally, the partnership will work out, but I am worried about the consequences if the two do not mesh well. I am hoping the 4-3-3 continues, both because it was effective against the teams that Newcastle must beat to move up the table, and because it allows both Owen and Martins onto the pitch at once, which guarantees regular goals (and let's be honest, we all love goals). See, i'd disagreewith the importance of the players ranking you give - your list refersto people who maybe haveplayed thebest in your opinionand id pretty much agree but i think i'd base the list on who i think has more importance to the team and for that Owen obviosuly comes first, followed by Martins, Geremi,Butt, and Faye. Personally i think Beye has been our best player but he is in a position which doesnt have a great influence over the game, not like the others do. Id also agree with your last paragrapgh - i personally think that there is a partnership between the 2, Martins naturally likes to go deep and collect the ball, whereas Owen likes to sit on the last defenders shoulder (in a 442) so i dont think they'd clash as similiar ilk players, becasue i dont think they are. I think my final point is that we are yet to see either of our 2 star formwards play in a sytem and a team that is owrking cohesively and thats what excited me most, Martins for me has done exceptionally well in his time here, he has a good goalscoring record in very diffiicult circumstances (Roeder and SA) where he's been shunted on the bench and not played consistently or has been one man up front on his own with a weak uncreative uncohesive midfielde behind him. It will be interesting to seem them both play in a team that finally is geared towards them playing there better game - people predict Martins to be a 10-15 goal striker but i genuinely think there is 20 goals in there.

No and no.

Wouldn't it of been easier to say that in the first place?

Are you in the anti keegan corner now? I didn't know there was an anti Keegan corner. Or is that the corner where anyone who doesn't dance around like a tit wearing a cardboard adidas crown sits? Its a simple question. Its just that you seem to have a more of a negative sniping attitude towards Keegan and I'm wondering why? Not saying you're wrong (so you dont have to go into faecicious defensive mode) just wondering why you are against him, if thats the case. I personally am still unsold on Keegan and have been since his appointment but for the time being im giving him the benefit of the doubt becasue he's done a decent job and id trust him with whatever budget there was. There you even have a token opinion from me to appease your insecure side. I'm not defensive at all, I just don't see how raising doubts about him makes you 'anti Keegan'. I was happy with him until I done the interview after the Chelsea game, lets just say his crown has slipped a bit since then. Fair enough - it just seemed a strange stat to bring out inlight of our circumstances and what he ended up achieveing. Thought its context belied a anti Keegan vibe to it - what with it being in this thread where it seemed completely irrelevant...

Are you in the anti keegan corner now? I didn't know there was an anti Keegan corner. Or is that the corner where anyone who doesn't dance around like a tit wearing a cardboard adidas crown sits? Its a simple question. Its just that you seem to have a more of a negative sniping attitude towards Keegan and I'm wondering why? Not saying you're wrong (so you dont have to go into faecicious defensive mode) just wondering why you are against him, if thats the case. I personally am still unsold on Keegan and have been since his appointment but for the time being im giving him the benefit of the doubt becasue he's done a decent job and id trust him with whatever budget there was. There you even have a token opinion from me to appease your insecure side.

Are you in the anti keegan corner now?

Concerned about the working relationship. This kind of set up will only thrive if Wise and Co and Keegan are working togethr 100% of the way and as dramatic as it sound there only needs be one disagreement and the whole house of cards falls down. Simple as that. I'm very very happy for Keegan being in charge but there will only be one winner if relationships do fray too much and thats something that i wouldnt be happy about becasue it will bring more negativity and uneeded pressure to the club, this club desperately needs stability.

Uh Oh! Yeh, ya right, im gonna remove that message.

So i take it Ashley invited him down south to tell him how good his joke was? just possible they may have wanted to meet to talk over the summer's transfer moves. So you have it down as pretty much a coincident? Im not sure i do to be honest - at first i read it as a joke as well but the manner in which it was said and the context of the subsequent message made me think otherwise. yes that comment i took as a joke but the meeting well.....i'd have been more concderned if the heirarchy didn't meet before the window opens. Thiz is it though - i thought they had already met about transfer targets and that they'd swapped lists for keegan to scout and Wise and Co to pursue, what else needed discussing to the extent that he had to bring forward a press conference and censor the questions in said conference. what else needed discussing ? i'd much prefer it if they met at least once a week to discuss developments etc Yeh, i can see the sense but it brings up this whole "run from london" debate, in the sense that how feasible is it to arrange weekley meeting whilst based in a city 300 miles away and whilst yo're supposed to be on scouting missions.

So i take it Ashley invited him down south to tell him how good his joke was? just possible they may have wanted to meet to talk over the summer's transfer moves. So you have it down as pretty much a coincident? Im not sure i do to be honest - at first i read it as a joke as well but the manner in which it was said and the context of the subsequent message made me think otherwise. yes that comment i took as a joke but the meeting well.....i'd have been more concderned if the heirarchy didn't meet before the window opens. Thiz is it though - i thought they had already met about transfer targets and that they'd swapped lists for keegan to scout and Wise and Co to pursue, what else needed discussing to the extent that he had to bring forward a press conference and censor the questions in said conference.

So i take it Ashley invited him down south to tell him how good his joke was? just possible they may have wanted to meet to talk over the summer's transfer moves. So you have it down as pretty much a coincident? Im not sure i do to be honest - at first i read it as a joke as well but the manner in which it was said and the context of the subsequent message made me think otherwise.

Baggio strikes me as somone who's naturally cynical though and would do more than blindly beleive anything just like that. Maybe im giving him too much credit - thats why i wanna know more.

So i take it Ashley invited him down south to tell him how good his joke was?

Is it not a poosilbity that Ashley will put £20m in the cluband the rest in financed by revenue? Or is wage ratio too high?

Why would he say he never spoke to him if he actualyl does? Or is Keegan being clever?

Theres faith and then theres blind faith.

As I said to HTT, believe what you like. Without wanting to draw out any in the know connotations - are you that confident of your 'source'. Personally, im trying not to be too cynical but i dont think all is right at nufc ( trying hard not to be classed as a doommonger), and i think there is a clash at the club regarding its policy. However my opiniion is exactly that, i cant really base it on anything solid whereas you seem to be more definitive today. How come?

Would people say that overall Roman has spoilt football by making it ALL about how much you spend and in essence making the top 4? Or has he improved it by bringing the quality of player to the premiership that wasnt prevalent before he came to england? If it wasn't him someone else would have invested, maybe not so greatly but it was always coming. Football (English) at the time had just got over the ITV digital crisis and financially was on a poor footing, plenty of teams with massive uncertain futures, no you can say but so what, Chelsea wasn't one of them? But money filters down, and Chelsea's big spending has attracted more fans and viewers to the league, and that gives the prem better financial clout which again filters down. Overall the transfer market was dying until his money ignited it again. IMO overall he's been a good thing for the English game, a bigger positive than a negative, it's just a shame he picked the biggest bunch of twats to invest in to, if Liverpool had nailed that final CL spot on the last day of the season it would have been them he was going to buy. Don't know if that is a shame or not tbh. But isnt it the amount that he invested that is the key - saying someone would of done it eventually but not as much is not really the point, no one has come near the sort of numbers that Roman has spent and its becasue of the amount that he spent that made the PL instantly more attractive to foriegn viewers- hence the TV money which prompted the current influx of new owners. This is what i mean - in one sense he attracted one of the best ever managers to the premiership and was therefore instrumental in raising the standards and quality of english football - much in the same way Wenger did when he was appointed. Thats one side of the argument but on the flipside he's created what seems to be an unpenetrable top4 which has a monopoly on every single player out there, it sems that there bench is more appealing than the rest's first team. This sort of monolpoly is creating a big bridge in quality between those below the top4 which gets harder and harder to breach each day - thus making the premiership a non competition.

Would people say that overall Roman has spoilt football by making it ALL about how much you spend and in essence making the top 4? Or has he improved it by bringing the quality of player to the premiership that wasnt prevalent before he came to england?

Im not looking to stoke a fire or anything, this is genuine but is there any chance of you both claryfying what you;ve both heard. Im just interested.

That it was hardly an outburst. Ok, then how would you like it dressed up? Comments? Remark? Annotation? Either way, how did you interpret that? I could interpret them a hundred and one ways if I wanted, but for now I'm reading it as a challenge to the powers that be and KK getting the hump because his side had just lost to a side he craves to be competing with, not at the end of his contract, but ASAP. That and a dig at the game and something for fans to chew on. Do you think it was just the defeat to Chelsea that prompted the challenge to the board?

Exactly, and I doubt finishing 5th is that different to finishing 10th in many players' eyes either. If it ain't the CL, 5th and 10th is all the same. Eh? What now?

That it was hardly an outburst. Ok, then how would you like it dressed up? Comments? Remark? Annotation? Either way, how did you interpret that?

That's the point me and my bro in law were trying to raise at Beardsley's recent talk in, that because of who he is and what he means, he's going to be almost irreplaceable, whatever the scenario, and that could potentially be a huge problem for the club. If the club sack him, fans would go ape s***. If he succeeds again, well, no manager on earth would ever be good enough for us. And if he fails, I think fans would lose all hope. Ashley isn't the only one who has invested a lot here, we are too, even KK. Thinking about it all, KK coming back is so wrong, it is going to work. I really believe that. That's what type of club we are. Teething problems at the moment, that is all. I'm pretty confident. Regarding young players, I've heard he has no real say on young kids getting signed and is happy to trust the others to fill the academy with whatever talent they decide to go for. When I said young players I didn't mean to fill up the academy, I'm talking about players under 24 that would be for the first team. Jeff Vetere has found some players who he thinks could go on to be the next big things in football but Keegan won't play ball, it's why the club have enquired about these players but haven't put any bids in since the season has closed, because they want Keegan to be in on the transfers but they feel he's being deliberately awkward. With Ashley not being prepared to let the club spend big on ageing players and Keegan dragging his feet over the young lads it could be a s*** Summer at NUFC, the last thing we need is a power struggle in the middle of a transfer window. The season has just finished, and it's still going on in other countries, he's been doing some heel dragging in between then like... sorry but I think you're reading into things too much. I doubt KK is dragging his heels over our interests in young stars, it was him who was livid with the Modric deal not going our way after all which is a deal he had no input in other than to say yes when asked if he'd like the player at the club. The transfer window is what a few weeks old? I honestly think people are getting too carried away and getting ahead of themselves. Us not signing anyone yet doesn't = KK dragging his heels or = must be a power struggle going on or = we don't have any money or = we can't attract anyone/no-one wants to sign for us. It's ridiculous man as there are 3 months to go to buy players. I mean I bet a number of people at NUFC are on their hols or having a break first before getting down to business, serious business. For me there is no problems. There are no heels being dragged because we aren't quite at that stage of players putting pen to paper. We are probably sorting out our targets and planning to do some serious scouting. Ignore the press and all the rumours. We will sign top quality players by the time it all kicks off again. Whats your take on the Keegan outburst the other week?

Right, someone explain the bolded part there to me. I'll straight honest, first off, that I do not think the club should sell Martins, I like him in the new system and his pace is very important if we have a relatively immobile CF in Viduka's position. He seems very happy at Newcastle United, and scores some crackers. He's relatively young (23, I believe) and could be a solid player for NUFC for 7-10 more years. The club's transfer attention should be on replacing Viduka and midfielders, primarily, imo. Not messing about with the fit and scoring strikers (Owen and Martins, top and second-top scorers, respectively). However, I do not agree with this bolded bit. I do not think Martins is the "lynchpin" of the system, nor do I think he's the most important player going forward who is the only person who can create anything for Newcastle. Personally, I think Martins was about the fifth most important player in the end of season success -- tied with Viduka, but Viduka should be easier to replace and needs it at any rate (hence my view that keeping Martins is a priority). Players ranked above Martins, you ask? In order -- Owen, Butt, Beye, Harper. In fact, those five (w/Martins) are the ones I think the squad should build around for next season hopefully with an understudy for Butt brought in this close season. There are flat BETTER players at Newcastle, and in fact, there is a better STRIKER at Newcastle United, than Obafemi Martins. Say what you like about Michael Owen, but he's far more proven in the Premiership and internationally, and was in fact the top scorer in both league and total goals this past season, as well as being club captain for the last 18 matches or so. He's a better goalscorer than Martins. That doesn't mean he can do it alone, and the club should try its best to keep both strikers, imo. But Owen's ability to play as the "playmaker" I think refutes the argument that Martins is the only player who can create anything. Anyone still arguing that Owen is one-dimensional...I wonder about your eyesight. Or at least whether or not you actually watched the last 10 matches of the season. (btw, I am not arguing that OWEN is the only one, either just pointing out on flaw in the argument above presented which I highlighted in bold). Martins is invauable to the team, i personally think equally important as Owen, Owens job is to retain possession in the final third and link up play between the midfielders and the forwards which he has done exceptionally well - he isnt a creator in the direct sense (Martins does have that feather in his cap, much like Bellamy in his heyday) but he is usually vital in the link up play before the creation of an oppurtunity, he also chips in with goals, some of which have been vital. If you look at Martins he creates oppurtunities in a different way, he is an invalauble outlet who can change the dimensions of play in an instant, how many times have you seen him retain possessio in the opposition corner when we've been under the cosh a little? Thats invaluable to a team, its a similar to what Rooney does at Man U on occasion - how many times have you seen him down the left flank on his own with possession? Also MArtins can thread a through ball occassionally and does put in the odd cross/shot, maybe that side of his game can be refined more but for me he is really invaluable.