Clark

I didn't just call you a liar, I proved it, multiple times, I stopped responding to you a while ago, but you kept replying, quoting and lying about me, others had also asked YOU to stop but you just kept going on and on. You're still going on and on.

You didn't word it wrongly, you lied, you've lied multiple times now, you've lied in your response... For the record, here are quotes where I've openly engaged in discussion regarding comparisons: 'I absolutley rate Howe, I think he has done fantastic things at Bournemouth, based on the above I put him below Vieira, only just, the whole ranking managers by list is extremely difficult and a lot of the positions are interchangeable. Again, much respect for owning a mistake.' 'Vieira had every right in getting those jobs, as demonstrated by his success as I listed previously. I've never mentioned Solskjaer in this specific debate and I'd rather stick to Howe/Vieira as that was what the initial debate was, but I will mention the criteria which lead to my ranking of Benitez (and therefore Solskjaer) next.' 'Benitez has excellent achievements, although his achievements (honours) are not comparable to those of Klopp and Guardiola, I suspect another 'Howe in the Conference' mistake. The reason for ranking Benitez 9th, is based on his ability, I don't believe he's a very good manager in todays game especially when compared to those in the Premier League. If I made just an ability ranking, Benitez would rank much lower than 9th, his achievements actually boosted his ranking in my table.' 'You've mentioned that Vieira hasn't 'done anything' to warrant being placed above six other managers (Howe, Gerrard, Lage, Smith and Solskjaer)... Why? What's that based on?' 'I see you didn't mention Pardew (it's almost as if that was a poor comparison right?) and you only mentioned McClaren's time at FC Twente and not his time at VfL Wolfsburg, it's almost as if you're trying to 'use data in isolation to prove a point'' I have allegedly 'consistently refuse to engage in discussion even when on the terms you've set', here is a quote from KAIZERO where HE set the terms: 'You have not addressed the following: The main and initial question, to you, Clark: Why do you believe Viera is better than Howe? The second question raised through adding points to the initial argument, what is your thought on all Viera's replacements performing better than he did in the clubs he left when it comes to portraying him as a manager with a better ability than Howe?' Here is my response even though I 'refuse to engage in discussion': 'Now. Vieira and Howe. To clarify I ranked Vieira above Howe in an ability/achievement list, here is a brief breakdown as to why: Vieira has managed three clubs, in three different countries, in their respective top flight leagues Vieira took charge of NYCFC in Jan 2016 and improved its position in the combined MLS standings in each of his years with the club, improving from 17th in 2015 to 4th in his first season in 2016 and then to 2nd in 2017 Vieira left NYCFC with 44.44% win percentage and led the club to it's first ever playoff appearance Vieira took over OGC Nice in June 2018 after Lucien Favre, in his first season he bettered Favre's previous campaign by finishing 7th in Ligue 1, in his second season he bettered that again finishing 5th and qualifying for the Europa League, he left with a 39.33% win percentage At Crystal Palace, in his first 11 Premier League games he has managed to claim impressive victories over Manchester City (2-0) and Tottenham (3-0), whilst drawing with Arsenal, despite having a 27.27% win percentage in the Premier League, he has only lost 2 of the first 11 games, those coming from Liverpool and Chelsea' You're a liar.

Dude, you've got to stop, you've got to stop replying to me and you have to stop lying about me, you've embarrassed enough already. For anyone else who reads this, I must state for the record: I have never disregarded a relevant comparison I haven't used a hypothetical in my argument

I used all the data available on Vieira to form my conclusion. If you think I was selective in my choice of data then you are more than free to point that out with evidence and examples regarding VIEIRA and HIS data, not Pardew and not McClaren. The question I asked regarding how Pardew and McClaren faired abroad was rhetorical... As in, this is irrelevant, please don't waste both our time answering, but you answered and I see you didn't mention Pardew (it's almost as if that was a poor comparison right?) and you only mentioned McClaren's time at FC Twente and not his time at VfL Wolfsburg, it's almost as if you're trying to 'use data in isolation to prove a point'... Please stop talking about completely irrelevant data/managers to try and discredit Vieira's body of work. Feel free to attack my points using relevant examples/evidence.

You're making the same mistake a couple of users have made. Giving a generic statement about a manager you don't rate very highly and comparing it (poorly) against one of my structurally sound points, Guess what? That doesn't damage that point. We have actual data on Vieira, you don't need to and shouldn't use Pardew and McClaren to tell me that Vieira is poor/overrated, if Vieira is poor/overrated then use his data to demonstrate it. I'll do this once: 'Steve McLaren has managed in three of the major European Top Flights and as an international manager. Pardew is in his third international league' And how did they do? Because Vieira, he did fantastic. 'McLaren took Boro to a European final and won there first trophy. Pardew took us to 5th. In isolation both as impressive' You know what wasn't an isolated incident? Vieira at NYCFC, where he improved them from 17th, to 4th, to 2nd and delivering their first playoff appearance. That's consistent success, consistent improvement over a two and a half year period. 'Mclaren has a 44% overall win ratio' Good for him, it's a shame this is about what Vieira has/is doing...

It's an extremely difficult task to manage top flight teams in different countries, with different cultures, different surroundings/setups, philosophies and so on, it shows an impressive ability to adapt to very different high stress situations. Vieira had every right in getting those jobs, as demonstrated by his success as I listed previously. I've never mentioned Solskjaer in this specific debate and I'd rather stick to Howe/Vieira as that was what the initial debate was, but I will mention the criteria which lead to my ranking of Benitez (and therefore Solskjaer) next. Benitez has excellent achievements, although his achievements (honours) are not comparable to those of Klopp and Guardiola, I suspect another 'Howe in the Conference' mistake. The reason for ranking Benitez 9th, is based on his ability, I don't believe he's a very good manager in todays game especially when compared to those in the Premier League. If I made just an ability ranking, Benitez would rank much lower than 9th, his achievements actually boosted his ranking in my table. You've mentioned that Vieira hasn't 'done anything' to warrant being placed above six other managers (Howe, Gerrard, Lage, Smith and Solskjaer)... Why? What's that based on?

It absolutley does.

I respect when someone admits to a mistake. People, for whatever reason, seem to find that hard to do. Top man. Now. Vieira and Howe. To clarify I ranked Vieira above Howe in an ability/achievement list, here is a brief breakdown as to why: Vieira has managed three clubs, in three different countries, in their respective top flight leagues Vieira took charge of NYCFC in Jan 2016 and improved its position in the combined MLS standings in each of his years with the club, improving from 17th in 2015 to 4th in his first season in 2016 and then to 2nd in 2017 Vieira left NYCFC with 44.44% win percentage and led the club to it's first ever playoff appearance Vieira took over OGC Nice in June 2018 after Lucien Favre, in his first season he bettered Favre's previous campaign by finishing 7th in Ligue 1, in his second season he bettered that again finishing 5th and qualifying for the Europa League, he left with a 39.33% win percentage At Crystal Palace, in his first 11 Premier League games he has managed to claim impressive victories over Manchester City (2-0) and Tottenham (3-0), whilst drawing with Arsenal, despite having a 27.27% win percentage in the Premier League, he has only lost 2 of the first 11 games, those coming from Liverpool and Chelsea I absolutley rate Howe, I think he has done fantastic things at Bournemouth, based on the above I put him below Vieira, only just, the whole ranking managers by list is extremely difficult and a lot of the positions are interchangeable. Again, much respect for owning a mistake.

It's extremely difficult to compare careers of very good managers, extremely difficult. Agree with your post, especially so regarding Benitez.

'Please stay on topic' That's a joke right? You demanded that I provide reasoning as to why I had Vieira (spelt correctly) above Howe, I give you a comprehensive list as to why I rate Vieira only to be met with a list about Ronny Deila and a hypothetical about Norwich City? And you ask me to stay on topic? 'I would need to present examples and evidence of my way of thinking for that opinion to hold up' Yeah, relevant examples and evidence... Haha. Jesus Christ. I'm done. I promise, I'm done. Let's stop while you're 0 for 2.

Hey, if this manager who nobody mentioned got this job that nobody talked about and got the same statistics as this other manager does that make him a better manager? That's what I thought! That was embarrassing.

Dude... What are you doing? This wasn't, isn't and never has been a Vieira vs Delia debate... As expected, that was a complete waste of time. Just seen the hypothetical at the end... Wow.

Vieira has managed three clubs, in three different countries, in their respective top flight leagues Vieira took charge of NYCFC in Jan 2016 and improved its position in the combined MLS standings in each of his years with the club, improving from 17th in 2015 to 4th in his first season in 2016 and then to 2nd in 2017 Vieira left NYCFC with 44.44% win percentage and led the club to it's first ever playoff appearance Vieira took over OGC Nice in June 2018 after Lucien Favre, in his first season he bettered Favre's previous campaign by finishing 7th in Ligue 1, in his second season he bettered that again finishing 5th and qualifying for the Europa League, he left with a 39.33% win percentage At Crystal Palace, in his first 11 Premier League games he has managed to claim impressive victories over Manchester City (2-0) and Tottenham (3-0), whilst drawing with Arsenal, despite having a 27.27% win percentage in the Premier League, he has only lost 2 of the first 11 games, those coming from Liverpool and Chelsea Impressive right?

People don't understand statistics and how/when to use them. He's been great at Palace: At Crystal Palace, in his first 11 Premier League games he has managed to claim impressive victories over Manchester City (2-0) and Tottenham (3-0), whilst drawing with Arsenal, despite having a 27.27% win percentage in the Premier League, he has only lost 2 of the first 11 games, those coming from Liverpool and Chelsea.

It was an impressive performance, they absolutely battered us: Possession: 75%-25% Shots: 15-6 Shots on Target: 3-2 Total Passes: 664-214 Pass Success: 87%-64% Dribbles: 13-5 Woodwork: 2-0

It's pointless discussing Vieira (spelt correctly) vs Howe when you don't understand the fundamentals of debating. His argument does fall on presenting something erroneous. That's an irrefutable fact. His argument (from his view) was that Howe should be above Vieira because 'Howe took Bournemouth from -17 points in the conference to the Premier League'. Believe it or not, saying something wrong in a debate, has consequences. I haven't got to my argument as to why I have Vieira above Howe because so far I've been met with someone totally uninformed on the subject and someone else (you) who thinks that first uninformed poster deserves further explanation as to why they are wrong... Now. Vieira and Howe. To clarify I ranked Vieira above Howe in an ability/achievement list, here is a brief breakdown as to why: Vieira has managed three clubs, in three different countries, in their respective top flight leagues Vieira took charge of NYCFC in Jan 2016 and improved its position in the combined MLS standings in each of his years with the club, improving from 17th in 2015 to 4th in his first season in 2016 and then to 2nd in 2017 Vieira left NYCFC with 44.44% win percentage and led the club to it's first ever playoff appearance Vieira took over OGC Nice in June 2018 after Lucien Favre, in his first season he bettered Favre's previous campaign by finishing 7th in Ligue 1, in his second season he bettered that again finishing 5th and qualifying for the Europa League, he left with a 39.33% win percentage At Crystal Palace, in his first 11 Premier League games he has managed to claim impressive victories over Manchester City (2-0) and Tottenham (3-0), whilst drawing with Arsenal, despite having a 27.27% win percentage in the Premier League, he has only lost 2 of the first 11 games, those coming from Liverpool and Chelsea

'He asked you, why is Viera above Howe? You've come with no counter argument towards his initial claim rather than attack him erroneously saying which division (and points) Howe started on with Bournemouth - effectively trying to remove the focus from his initial claim, which you did not address.' The counter argument was me attacking his fabricated reasoning. Informed vs uninformed. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about and yet he was trying to question my ranking. It was the perfect counter argument. 'The points still remain, I edited the post three minutes before you posted. It may well be the case, but I find it hard to believe you spent more than three minutes writing your response' You're causing this to become circular, I didn't ignore your argument, you posted an unfinished thought/argument, I responded to that, that's a you problem, not a me problem, read your comment before posting... 'I never said you refuted that at all' Then why make a point of it? Why say it? The sky is blue, that is an irrefutable fact... Eddie Howe took Bournemouth to the Premier league, that is an irrefutable fact! Yeah, I know... And? 'He can make that claim because he backed it up with an actual argument for his views, an argument where you seemingly couldn't pose a counter-argumentative answers so you rather dismissed it all due to an error he made in presenting the argument' Again circular... He can't make that claim... Because he was uninformed... That was my counter... This is becoming incredibly tedious, repetitive and boring. 'If you had paid attention to the rest of the points stated, rather than try to jump on minor details' I've addressed EVERY POINT (that wasn't edited after the fact), you see how I'm quoting every line and responding to every one of those quotes right? You're now bordering on lying to try and prove a point... 'And it is not a silly argument, Nuno got sacked after ten games at Tottenham. de Boer at Palace got the bullet after five games.' And I wouldn't judge Nuno's or de Boer's entire managerial career on 5-10 games and I would call anyone who does, silly... 'So, again, why do you place Viera above Howe on ability and/or merit' Let's end the previous points first before moving on to that larger topic. My counter argument was 100% accurate and justified, the initial poster was completely uninformed and I have addressed every point up until the last question.

'He didn't ignore the other parts of the argument' What are you talking about buddy? 'you on the other hand did leave out the second part of my post' You edited your post, that's your fault not mine. 'Howe took Bournemouth from League 2 to become a PL team, that's irrefutable' Where did I refute that? Can you quote me? I believe I refuted the claim that Howe took Bournemouth from the Conference to the Premier League with a -17 point deficit and I refuted that claim because it's false... 'However wrong Froggy was in his presenting that, it was clearly his intention so arguing around it being "wrong" doesn't make much sense - as the intention of the argument was clear based on the actual facts' This is a debate buddy, facts matter, he got the facts wrong, he's uninformed, you cannot make a claim that Howe is better than Vieira, get all of you reasoning/evidence wrong and still expect to have your claim accepted, that's not how debating/arguments works. 'Viera has been a failure at both clubs he has managed in the past and is now currently doing worse win % wise than his predecessor Roy Hodgson' I've been over this buddy, it's 12 games, incredibly small sample size, silly argument.

All of his argument was based on invalid reasoning and false evidence... He had Howe taking over Bournemouth in a completely different league, with a completely different points deficit... While he judged Vieira on his results from his 12 games Crystal Palace manager, pretty much ignoring the other 179 games he managed at other clubs... Nothing he said "backed up" his own argument so I'm really struggling to see how you came to your conclusion.

Howe didn't take Bournemouth from -17 points in the Conference to the Premier League... Eddie Howe was appointed Bournemouth manager on the 31st December 2008, the club being 23rd in League 2 and only 7 points from safety... You don't know what you're talking about. Patrick Vieira has managed NYFC leaving with a 44.44% win percentage and OGC Nice with a 39.33% win percentage, that's after managing 179 games, not a measly 12 games like he has for Crystal Palace, imagine judging someone's ability after 12 games... Silly.

When considering all aspects (aesthetic, recognition, branding, history and so on...), which Newcastle badge is the best?

We can't all have good taste, enjoy your seahorsies.

It definitely stands out... How could it not? With its grey seahorses grasping a gold gilded black and white shield that sits below a castle being conquered by a lion holding a red and blue flag. B-E-A-utiful... Yuck!

Bobby is dead.

Is this your thing? Do you just go around posting pointless drivel on every thread? Whatever floats your boat bud, I guess...