4-3-3 is here to stay - so what now?

[Baggio]

I don't think there's any doubt that 4-3-3 works, both Chelsea and Barcelona have played different variations of it over the past few seasons and both have been the best teams around, the problem we have is adjusting it to fit our players which is where Allardyce is going wrong.

 

One of our problems apart from the obvious lack of creativity in midfield is Milner on the left of a 4-3-3, the lad just isn't suited to it and his own performances are at the sake of the whole balance of the team, if you look at all of the other teams that play 4-3-3 in the past they have players on either side of the front man with pace, why? because you need the variation a player of that type brings.

 

If you look at the likes of Anelka, Diouf, Robben, Joe Cole, Giggs, Ronaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho they all have the ability to beat there man and run away from him directly for goal, by doing that they're causing problems for the rest of the defenders by making them panic and pulling them out of position, that way the other players in the attacking three can find space easier and become more of a threat.

 

Milner can't run away from a defender once he's beat them so he's left with two other options which he regularly takes, he'll either turn back and try and beat the man again which slows our attack down more or he puts a cross in which isn't what being an attacker in a 4-3-3 is about, for him to put a cross in we're putting Viduka and Martins up against three defenders (2 CB's and a left back) which is to predictable and too easy to defend against unless our strikers pull off some magic (Martins vs Bolton, Viduka vs Boro)

 

If we were to play N'Zogbia there for example he's not only capable of putting a cross in but he can leave his marker for dead, now once Zog beats their right back the first thing one of their CB's will do is be drawn towards him, that way it'll leave two defenders up against Viduka and Oba which is much better odds for us, if Zoggy beats him too then they are really in the shit. So with the players we've currently got fit I'd go with...

 

 

.................Geremi...Butt

 

......................Milner

 

....Martins........................N'Zogbia

....................Viduka

 

 

Milners got a decent shot on him from distance and he works hard which makes him a decent option to play through the middle in a similar role to that what Lampard fills at Chelsea, he's not the cultured creative midfielder that the fans are crying out for but he'd be a decent option until Barton comes back, not that he's a cultured creative midfielder either mind you.

[ChezGiven]

He's had all week to think about that

 

Good post though.

[johnnypd]

yep good post baggio and similar ideas to what i've been saying.

[Guest Knightrider]

Excellent post jimmy1982 and yours too Baggio, plenty of food for thought. We once again played 4-3-3 at times tonight and once again we didn't perform the greatest under that system but we won and we're progressing as a team.

[sicsfingeredmong]

Our obvious lack of width at the moment is a problem, but the key to obtaining width in a 433 comes from having two book-end athletic, ballplaying fullbacks on either flank - especially with a big target man in the middle in the form of Viduka. On paper Enrique and Beye should deliver this element, something that has and would've been amiss with the likes of Carr, Ramage, Taylor etc filling either fullback position. 

 

Zoggy is suited to one of the outside central positions imo. As a winger he always showed the propensity to drift inside and shoot from distance, and this strength - ie his shooting - will be highlighted more often in the current system. But he still needs a 'wide allie', in the type of fullback i'm talking about to keep his opposite number and the accompanying defending fullback well and truly busy.

 

 

[Howaythelads]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

You dont think the players will adapt given time? I mean 5-10 games.

 

Maybe. Doesn't matter really. I think this crop of players will perform better in a 4-4-2.

 

Thought I'd add that I'm not against 4-3-3 per se. It'll be ok if some width comes from somewhere because you do need some width.

[GM]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

You dont think the players will adapt given time? I mean 5-10 games.

 

Maybe. Doesn't matter really. I think this crop of players will perform better in a 4-4-2.

 

Thought I'd add that I'm not against 4-3-3 per se. It'll be ok if some width comes from somewhere because you do need some width.

 

Would that width not come from the likes of Beye/Solano (RWB/RB) and Enrique/N'Zogbia* (*if played as LWB) - so long as the DCM's can drop back and provide sufficient cover for any counterattack?

[Guest sondre]

                          geremi            barton

 

                                    new AM

Martins                                                                  Zog

 

                                    Viduka

 

get Diego in, and please sell Slowmo Ameobi. Need a big throphy signing imo.

[Guest jimmy1982]

Good post Baggio, I hadn't thought about Milner's role like that. Thinking about it like that, you'd think Smith wouldn't work in a front three containing Viduka either, which I had expected him to do.

 

However I'm not totally convinced by what you say - if we're playing 433 and the other team is 442, your argument is that it is absolutely essential for the player to get free of his man to drag one centre defender out of position to create space, leaving our other two attackers against one centre defender and one full back, so 2-on-2 since the other full back doesn't have a winger on his side to cover. Really exactly the same thing happens in 442 - the winger beats his full back and then has two options: 1) get to the by-line a put in a cross for the 2 strikers (who are 2-on-2 with their centre backs because the other full back still has to cover our other winger) or 2) drive on, forcing one of their centre backs out of position to come and cover. In the second case the player then has two more options - pass to one of the strikers who should theoretically now be free, or shoot.

 

I still think Milner can be useful as one of the front 3 because of his work rate and discipline - the advantage of a 433 arises as much (mebbies more) from what happens when we lose the ball as what happens when we're going forward. And Zogs can provide the pace and a more direct goal threat from the other side. Ideally Sam will keep Duff fit and get the best out of him, coz I reckon him and Zogs playing off Viduka would be pretty lethal, even against the top sides.

 

I would be interested to see Milner in the Lampard role. Lampard gets alot of attention for picking up balls on the edge of the box and scoring loads of screamers like that, but he's also pretty good at playing other people in from that position with dinky little passes. I don't think Milner's got that in him to be honest - he's always seemed a bit of a head down merchant to me. He's still young though - plenty of time to add that to his game. Smith might be a better bet for that central position - I thought Emre would be the boy for it until he got injured last night. My big hope is that Barton will play well in this formation because I think he's an influential player and will get alot better under Sam. I don't think we're really desperate for a creative midfielder - getting good, cohesive off the ball movement is more important to us now, and that will be a case of Sam drilling them, and them getting used to eachother as the matches go by.

 

Just being totally theorectical here mind! I don't think I've ever played in a 433 myself and can't remember watching too many either, so i'm just going on how i picture it working. Its a total trade off between Sam starting off building a system he's comfortable with and has confidence in for the long term, and accomodating the players he's inherited.

 

 

 

[buzza]

As stated by Shaman the key for this system to work is overlapping fullbacks, you get an extra man coming forward normally with plenty of space to get the cross in and with three forwards waiting your chances are greatly improved. This is the reason why teams have three "burly/defensive" midfielders (makalele, essien, lampard) so that these forays forward can be covered defensively... Also one of these midfield three goes forward enough to pick up the "seconds" outside the area...

'Nuff said!

[Guest firetotheworks]

Just a note about the 4-3-3 as well. Someone may have already mentioned it, and I know Man Utd have a lot more quality than us, but when they started playing 4-3-3 last season their fans were chanting '4-4-2' because although they were winning they were'nt as fluid and attacking as they were once they got used to the system. We're doing ok at the moment. I think we should give the system a chance.

[buzza]

Man utd lined up like this:

----------Vandersaw--------

Neville---Ferd---Vidic---Evra

----Scholes---fletcher---carrick--

---Ronny---Rooney----Riggs (ha ha ha)

[buzza]

Evra and neville are two full backs who know when to bomb forward and when not to, Ronaldo wouldn't get half the amount of chances if neville wasn't creating space for him by bombing down the flank....

At the moment it's a bit disjointed but when it starts working I reckon we will reap the benefits of a 4-3-3.

[Guest jimmy1982]

Pity we don't have a Scholes though! Whenever Man U get the ball he just takes up his position in the middle, 20-45 yards from goal, and absolutely killes teams time after time with his though balls. Total class.

[buzza]

Did anybody else see the barcelona - inter milan match last night?

That was the best attacking display I have seen from a 4-3-3 system (friendly game tho').

-------------Keeper---------------

Thuram---milito--Marques---Abidal

---xavi-----deco---zambrotta

--ronaldinho---dos santos---henri

--(Messi)-----(Etoo)-----Henri (second half)

[Howaythelads]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

You dont think the players will adapt given time? I mean 5-10 games.

 

Maybe. Doesn't matter really. I think this crop of players will perform better in a 4-4-2.

 

Thought I'd add that I'm not against 4-3-3 per se. It'll be ok if some width comes from somewhere because you do need some width.

 

Would that width not come from the likes of Beye/Solano (RWB/RB) and Enrique/N'Zogbia* (*if played as LWB) - so long as the DCM's can drop back and provide sufficient cover for any counterattack?

 

In theory, of course it could. However, in practice it remains to be seen.

[Guest jimmy1982]

Did anybody else see the barcelona - inter milan match last night?

That was the best attacking display I have seen from a 4-3-3 system (friendly game tho').

-------------Keeper---------------

Thuram---milito--Marques---Abidal

---xavi-----deco---zambrotta

--ronaldinho---dos santos---henri

--(Messi)-----(Etoo)-----Henri (second half)

 

Didn't see it, but sounds pretty good. That midfield looks a bit more lightweight than I think Sam would be looking to employ in the premier league. How did Zambrotta do in that position? Never seen him play in the middle before.