Bobby Robson's football nous compared to Allardyce's dogma

[Martin Lol]

Expanding on the comparison between Allardyce and Ramos, who generally speaking have similar ideas on how their teams should play (even if not under similar formations), the following of a translation of a Ramos interview since he joined Spurs that I have shamelessly lifted from a Spurs site:

 

"Working to the maximum and as a team, it is possible to beat any rival. This is what we have to assume. I intend that my footballers do not feel inferior to anyone, that through hard work, effort and sacrifice they feel they can compete with anyone, that they understand that quality or talent is important but without the former you will achieve absolutely nothing. I intend to convince them that the possibility of success (I think) is very great if they work to 100%."

 

"I intend to be fair to the players, I am not impressed by a name or previous achievements. I observe how they work and I intend to pick players for the effort and hard work, not the name. At times you find players who can destroy the team with by not contributing to the team but detract from it. It is easy to indentify them. I intend that each player will have to compete for their position. Each one will acquire their position through his own effort and hard work. I focus each day on how they train, their daily work and how they fit in with the team. Anyone who continuously doesn't compete tends not to have my faith."

 

"I look for my teams to be just that, a TEAM. And that they are truly competitive. The key is TO KNOW HOW TO COMPETE. It is fundamental that the players acquire a strong mentality, that the team acquires a mentality of competing. I have found footballers who have a strong, winning mentality that don't have great quality as a footballer but prove to be necessary in the make up of the team because of this mentality. For me a good footballer is competitive, his talent is unified with the team and he expresses this quality, above all, in times of major difficulty. The mediocre footballer is he who does not know how to impose himself on adversity, because they are who they are. The player with effort and sacrifice knows how to understand that this competitiveness can compensate for less technical skill or overcome another footballer that is technically better. I quickly distinguish the footballers that are competitive and non-competitive, I do it almost intuitively. In time I build a team that contains the most competitive footballers."

 

"The coach has to be honest and sincere. I intend to be totally honest with myself and everyone else. I treat footballers naturally and to create a code of conduct and to work hard, to convey my ideas and my way of understanding football. I will never become the person who doesn't give 100% for the team and let them carry him, I say what I think and I do what I say. I like to be clear and positive. If the footballer is confused, or doubts the beliefs of the coach, bad results come and he loses faith in you."

"In my work the most important thing is to be guided by the belief of trying to improve, to help and to achieve new things."

 

Whilst Allardyce and Ramos may share similar philosophies, I find it hard to envisage Allardyce trying to detail what he is trying to achieve and how he will achieve it.  The typical Premiership  manager would not be so specific about his aims and objectives and so leaving the usual escape routes (Lady Luck, injuries, rub of the green etc) to be raised should things start to go belly up.  I'm not saying Allardyce would do that or that Ramos wouldn't, but I find it interesting how they pass on their hopes and aspirations for the future development of the team.  Wenger has always gone on about giving the players the credit to adapt to the manager's philosophy and if Ramos can get our players to do the same, all well and good.  I just don't see Allardyce doing that, or even attempting to do it tbh.

 

For the Spanish speaking here, (I'm not one!), the Ramos article was at

 

http://www.sabercompetir.com/extendida.php?id_noticia=2

[EthiGeordie]

I miss Sir Bobby I wish our next manger will be a honest, attack mineded and a great coach. Thats what we missed after Bobby left.

[TRon]

Expanding on the comparison between Allardyce and Ramos, who generally speaking have similar ideas on how their teams should play (even if not under similar formations), the following of a translation of a Ramos interview since he joined Spurs that I have shamelessly lifted from a Spurs site:

 

"Working to the maximum and as a team, it is possible to beat any rival. This is what we have to assume. I intend that my footballers do not feel inferior to anyone, that through hard work, effort and sacrifice they feel they can compete with anyone, that they understand that quality or talent is important but without the former you will achieve absolutely nothing. I intend to convince them that the possibility of success (I think) is very great if they work to 100%."

 

"I intend to be fair to the players, I am not impressed by a name or previous achievements. I observe how they work and I intend to pick players for the effort and hard work, not the name. At times you find players who can destroy the team with by not contributing to the team but detract from it. It is easy to indentify them. I intend that each player will have to compete for their position. Each one will acquire their position through his own effort and hard work. I focus each day on how they train, their daily work and how they fit in with the team. Anyone who continuously doesn't compete tends not to have my faith."

 

"I look for my teams to be just that, a TEAM. And that they are truly competitive. The key is TO KNOW HOW TO COMPETE. It is fundamental that the players acquire a strong mentality, that the team acquires a mentality of competing. I have found footballers who have a strong, winning mentality that don't have great quality as a footballer but prove to be necessary in the make up of the team because of this mentality. For me a good footballer is competitive, his talent is unified with the team and he expresses this quality, above all, in times of major difficulty. The mediocre footballer is he who does not know how to impose himself on adversity, because they are who they are. The player with effort and sacrifice knows how to understand that this competitiveness can compensate for less technical skill or overcome another footballer that is technically better. I quickly distinguish the footballers that are competitive and non-competitive, I do it almost intuitively. In time I build a team that contains the most competitive footballers."

 

"The coach has to be honest and sincere. I intend to be totally honest with myself and everyone else. I treat footballers naturally and to create a code of conduct and to work hard, to convey my ideas and my way of understanding football. I will never become the person who doesn't give 100% for the team and let them carry him, I say what I think and I do what I say. I like to be clear and positive. If the footballer is confused, or doubts the beliefs of the coach, bad results come and he loses faith in you."

"In my work the most important thing is to be guided by the belief of trying to improve, to help and to achieve new things."

 

Whilst Allardyce and Ramos may share similar philosophies, I find it hard to envisage Allardyce trying to detail what he is trying to achieve and how he will achieve it.  The typical Premiership  manager would not be so specific about his aims and objectives and so leaving the usual escape routes (Lady Luck, injuries, rub of the green etc) to be raised should things start to go belly up.  I'm not saying Allardyce would do that or that Ramos wouldn't, but I find it interesting how they pass on their hopes and aspirations for the future development of the team.  Wenger has always gone on about giving the players the credit to adapt to the manager's philosophy and if Ramos can get our players to do the same, all well and good.  I just don't see Allardyce doing that, or even attempting to do it tbh.

 

For the Spanish speaking here, (I'm not one!), the Ramos article was at

 

http://www.sabercompetir.com/extendida.php?id_noticia=2

 

That was a good read, and I have to say I'd be surprised if Ramos doesn't turn things round quickly as he seems to have a great philosophy on team building. Actually I think Allardyce is quite similar, and is probably very good at man-management. Big Sam has some great qualities, his problem is his success has been based on what he's done at Bolton where upsetting the big boys was an end in itself. I don't think he could even imagine how to play a passing game, which the best teams do - even the defensive ones.

 

 

[Martin Lol]

Expanding on the comparison between Allardyce and Ramos, who generally speaking have similar ideas on how their teams should play (even if not under similar formations), the following of a translation of a Ramos interview since he joined Spurs that I have shamelessly lifted from a Spurs site:

 

"Working to the maximum and as a team, it is possible to beat any rival. This is what we have to assume. I intend that my footballers do not feel inferior to anyone, that through hard work, effort and sacrifice they feel they can compete with anyone, that they understand that quality or talent is important but without the former you will achieve absolutely nothing. I intend to convince them that the possibility of success (I think) is very great if they work to 100%."

 

"I intend to be fair to the players, I am not impressed by a name or previous achievements. I observe how they work and I intend to pick players for the effort and hard work, not the name. At times you find players who can destroy the team with by not contributing to the team but detract from it. It is easy to indentify them. I intend that each player will have to compete for their position. Each one will acquire their position through his own effort and hard work. I focus each day on how they train, their daily work and how they fit in with the team. Anyone who continuously doesn't compete tends not to have my faith."

 

"I look for my teams to be just that, a TEAM. And that they are truly competitive. The key is TO KNOW HOW TO COMPETE. It is fundamental that the players acquire a strong mentality, that the team acquires a mentality of competing. I have found footballers who have a strong, winning mentality that don't have great quality as a footballer but prove to be necessary in the make up of the team because of this mentality. For me a good footballer is competitive, his talent is unified with the team and he expresses this quality, above all, in times of major difficulty. The mediocre footballer is he who does not know how to impose himself on adversity, because they are who they are. The player with effort and sacrifice knows how to understand that this competitiveness can compensate for less technical skill or overcome another footballer that is technically better. I quickly distinguish the footballers that are competitive and non-competitive, I do it almost intuitively. In time I build a team that contains the most competitive footballers."

 

"The coach has to be honest and sincere. I intend to be totally honest with myself and everyone else. I treat footballers naturally and to create a code of conduct and to work hard, to convey my ideas and my way of understanding football. I will never become the person who doesn't give 100% for the team and let them carry him, I say what I think and I do what I say. I like to be clear and positive. If the footballer is confused, or doubts the beliefs of the coach, bad results come and he loses faith in you."

"In my work the most important thing is to be guided by the belief of trying to improve, to help and to achieve new things."

 

Whilst Allardyce and Ramos may share similar philosophies, I find it hard to envisage Allardyce trying to detail what he is trying to achieve and how he will achieve it.  The typical Premiership  manager would not be so specific about his aims and objectives and so leaving the usual escape routes (Lady Luck, injuries, rub of the green etc) to be raised should things start to go belly up.  I'm not saying Allardyce would do that or that Ramos wouldn't, but I find it interesting how they pass on their hopes and aspirations for the future development of the team.  Wenger has always gone on about giving the players the credit to adapt to the manager's philosophy and if Ramos can get our players to do the same, all well and good.  I just don't see Allardyce doing that, or even attempting to do it tbh.

 

For the Spanish speaking here, (I'm not one!), the Ramos article was at

 

http://www.sabercompetir.com/extendida.php?id_noticia=2

 

That was a good read, and I have to say I'd be surprised if Ramos doesn't turn things round quickly as he seems to have a great philosophy on team building. Actually I think Allardyce is quite similar, and is probably very good at man-management. Big Sam has some great qualities, his problem is his success has been based on what he's done at Bolton where upsetting the big boys was an end in itself. I don't think he could even imagine how to play a passing game, which the best teams do - even the defensive ones.

 

Totally agree, I personally think that SA's man-management skills with the players are up there with the best of them.  I always remember Campo saying when he first joined on loan that he had only gone to Bolton to regain form to enable him to play well in Spain!  The fact that he eventually wanted to make the move permanent speaks volumes for SA's communication skills imho.  Allardyce's biggest problem is his success at mastering the long-ball game and the opposition's inability to break his system down.  Does he drop the system which has taken him where he is today?

 

To be a success at Newcastle, I think he not only has to play a passing game, but to master it (almost) as well as he mastered the long-ball game. I don't know whether he can, personally I have doubts, but he does have tactical ability and the ability to talk to the players, so if he can form his ideas then convey them to the players then I believe Newcastle could be really successful.  Maybe it will be more difficult in keeping the media wolves from the door and keeping his job while his plans take shape.  SA may be very good with communicating with the players, but I don't think he is any great shakes as a communicator with the media, often coming over as indecisive, and there is a world of difference between talking the players and talking to the media.

 

Jol was as good as they get talking to the media but was only average when talking to the players.  Different players heard different things when he was trying to keep them all happy and ultimately it caused the discontent that saw him go.  Allardyce's problem, imo, is the opposite.  He can talk well with the players and get his message across but he's got to do the same with the media to stop them producing headlines like 'Crisis at the Toon' or 'Under fire Allardyce'.  The media can bring a manager down just as easily as a dressing room revolt.

 

 

[Guest jimmy1982]

Lack of media communication could end up with all the tabloid press getting on Sam's back, which in the best case scenario could result in us ending up with a 'seige mentality' that Ferguson supposedly used to foster at Man U (although don't know how true that is). If Sam's bond with the players is that strong, they might end up trying even harder for him in such circumstances - its an 'us against them' thing. However the problem with that is that elements of our support (a canny few as well) seem to form their opinions based on what they read in the papers and it wouldn't take much for them to get on Sam's back, even if everybody else could see some sort of progress being made.

That is the problem for me really - we seemed to have made unprecedented levels of progress in the summer by a) having a total change of ownership and administration and b) having a new highly-regarded manager who bought some ostensibly very good signings, but since the start of the season I haven't really seen any progress on the pitch. You could make excuses for him - he inherited a mess, his main signing got injured in pre-season, but really we should be seeing some improvement now that the squad have been training and playing together for a good few months. As somebody else said we seemed to have stagnated a little bit by the end of Bobby's second season but them he pulled off two masterstrokes in signing Bellamy and Robert and all of a sudden we were away. We've got to hope that Sam will do something similar. It doesn't make any sense to be getting on Sam's back now, but if by the end of the season we're still as disjointed as we are now, and the football and results aren't any better, Sam's going to have a lot of questions to answer.