Switching full-backs, N'Zogbia, 4-3-3 & Big Sam's thinking?

[Guest optimistic nit]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

 

i don't think thats neccicarially a neccicity. i think what viduka lacks in mobile batteringramness he makes up in technique. viduka can do a lot with very little, which is very important imo, his goal against boro is a great example.

[The College Dropout]

Do you get payed directly by Big Sam?

 

The effort is appreciated HTT. But I doubt anyone read the whole thing thoroughly.

 

Why the total lack of belief in Martins? He has a better chance of working in a 433 than Owen and even Viduka.

 

 

Why sign Viduka when you know he'll struggle to play in your preffered formation?

 

You do know by the time he left Chelsea, Mourinho was playing a 442?

 

I think you've created a hypothesis for something that is being done completely randomly. I call it the "Lost" effect. Wing it as much as you like and someone will draw logical conclusions to what you did.

 

Owen on the right of an attacking 3? Seriously?

 

 

Anyway I hope your right and Sam is as clever as he tries to be.

 

Owen can only ever play as a box player. even to suggest doing anything else with him should be enough to put you in an asylum in my opinion.

 

I was saying that it was a somewhat ludicrous idea. That's pretty much what Sam did. It seemed stupid to me. All the factors in yesterdays match led me to believe Martins would be the best option upfront.

[Baggio]

Just watch how we cross our balls in then. I'm not basing my opinion on three instances, I could go back and point out every single one but I can't remember them all cos I'm not HTT

 

Just seem to recall Bolton scoring a lot of similar goals, Okocha in particular swinging these types of crosses in and seeing the ball end up directly in the net.

 

Plus a free kick on the left is normally hit by a left-footer with it curling away from goal, n'est-ce pas?

 

Hardly anyone curls a free kick away from goal in that position, the whole point of curling it in is if everyone misses it it's got a chance of going in.

 

I've seen how we cross our balls into the box, if Milner is on the left then he'll cut inside and cross with his preferred foot (right) if N'Zogbia is on the left he goes to the touchline and crosses in with his preferred foot (left)

 

I think you're reading too much into it tbh.

[Guest optimistic nit]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

 

Wtf, thats exactly what Viduka is. Holds the ball up, lays it off. He's perfect for the top of the 3...

 

 

no, he's not, people look at his size and think he's a drogba, but you cant play him like that to get anything effective out of him. i dont think you can really define him as a player.

[Dokko]

I understand, and long term its a good goal, if it works. But i've never seen NUFC move to a different formation other than 442 and for it to work.

 

We need a complete re-haul of the team, i just don't think SA has the time for that, and he needs to show ASAP that he knows what he's doing, or whats going to happen is he gets sacked mid change, and we start again with another manager. That's going to be more harmful than good. The formation change hasn't worked, and it wont with this team, so what is best right now is that we pick up as many points as possible while making ourselves more attractive to better players in the future by showing were back in business.

 

If he's here for the long term, then this would be a better course of action than sticking with a 433 regardless of form and results dont you think?

 

 

Then we must afford him that time. If we don't, this problem won't go away and will only grow and the next man will only want to overhaul things anyway, so why shouldn't the man we ironically appointed to overhaul things, a man with a proven track record in that area, get the time to do just that?

 

Because a few fans don't like the football on show or are too fucking impatient and stupid to accept no matter who is in charge, they all need time? Fuck them, they are idiots who can't see past their own nose.

 

The formation changes haven't worked? I disagree, we are 6 points off 6th place so they are working to a degree. Who is to say changing them again will work better anyway? Not that this is important at this early stage, for me anyway, I'd rather look ahead and think about where we'll be in a few years time because of these foundations being put in place now than make snapped judgments based on 12 games.

 

I hope he does get the time, talk of sack now is absurd, but football is an impatient game, its a money game now and the more money, the less time there is to get it right. Its the high pressure of the football world at the top, its why Sam clears in a week more than 80% of the UK population does in a year. So taking that into consideration, his job is also to get it right now, as well as later on, thats really all i'm saying.

 

The formation change hasn't worked, as we've looked stale in attack, and disorganised at the back. The results have been to the wire most games, and we could of been looking a lot worse bar a couple of incidents, this worryingly after the easiest start i've seen on paper to an EPL season for us. IMO we'd have done better in a settled 442 from the start of the season, but really there is no way to prove that.

[The College Dropout]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

 

i don't think thats neccicarially a neccicity. i think what viduka lacks in mobile batteringramness he makes up in technique. viduka can do a lot with very little, which is very important imo, his goal against boro is a great example.

 

Yeah in the box he's great. That's his strength. Get it in the box at his feet and he'll do something.

 

Outside of the box he's limited to constantly tangling with defenders. Despite his great first touch and strength he seems to struggle.

[Guest Knightrider]

Do you get payed directly by Big Sam?

 

Because I try to look at things differently, i.e. have an opinion of my own?

 

The effort is appreciated HTT. But I doubt anyone read the whole thing thoroughly.

 

I bet you did

 

Why the total lack of belief in Martins? He has a better chance of working in a 433 than Owen and even Viduka.

 

 

Why sign Viduka when you know he'll struggle to play in your preffered formation?

 

You do know by the time he left Chelsea, Mourinho was playing a 442?

 

I think you've created a hypothesis for something that is being done completely randomly. I call it the "Lost" effect. Wing it as much as you like and someone will draw logical conclusions to what you did.

 

Owen on the right of an attacking 3? Seriously?

 

 

Anyway I hope your right and Sam is as clever as he tries to be.

 

I actually like Martins and would dearly love to see him get a good run but I don't think he has it in him to work the flank intelligently which is what 4-3-3 demands. He's more a ball over the top player or an explosive impact player from the bench. He's useless in open play at most things and requires too much hard work and time on the training pitch. N'Zogbia wide left of a centre-forward in a 4-3-3 gives you the pace and powerful shooting of Martins, but more game intelligence, better standard of control and an ability to slot in at left-back or play on the right too.

 

Viduka in theory can play at the head of 4-3-3 as he's strong, can hold the ball up and is also creative, however he can't string two games together and is very immobile. He too for me was a short-term fix. I actually think Big Sam identified Ameobi as his possible central striker but he's obviously seen enough to scrap that idea I also think Smith was signed as Viduka's long-term replacement regarding his position in the squad, with the added bonus of being versatile. Smith too could play in a 4-3-3. Ideally though I think Big Sam would love someone like Anelka for that role....

 

As for Owen... he's such a one dimensional player now, he's of no long-term benefit to a club like Newcastle. He needs wingers, 4-4-2 and a battering ram alongside him, everything needs built around him. Sure he'll get you 15-20 league goals this way but not many others around him will get goals and he'll be quite easy to restrict for any manager with a firm grasp of tactics for large parts of the game. You simply keep him out of the box and he becomes a useless eater. He's being played now because he's liable to nick a goal at any stage of a match but he wouldn't get a sniff if Big Sam had other goalscoring alternatives. Having Owen in the side though comes at a cost, we are far too static and deep up front. If anything his inclusion isn't working because he's not nicking those goals. Get rid in January.

 

Regarding Mourinho, he did revert to 4-4-2 and at some cost, Chelsea suddenly looked beatable and his players struggled in 4-4-2. Meanwhile 4-3-3 brought in what, 4 trophies was it?

 

I don't think Sam is clever btw, there is nothing clever about 4-3-3 or his methods, 4-3-3 and his methods are just intricate and based on a lot of variables and can be confusing. Get it right though and you'll pick up lots of points.

[Baggio]

To say Viduka would struggle in Sam's preferred formation is crazy. He's the perfect guy at the front of that three IMO, with 2 of Owen, Martins, Zog, Milner, Duff and Smith just off him.

 

Yes he would struggle.

 

He's no Kevin davies, Drogba or even Heskey. The main striker in this formation needs to be mobile. A human battering ram, this isn't Viduka.

 

i don't think thats neccicarially a neccicity. i think what viduka lacks in mobile batteringramness he makes up in technique. viduka can do a lot with very little, which is very important imo, his goal against boro is a great example.

 

Yeah in the box he's great. That's his strength. Get it in the box at his feet and he'll do something.

 

Outside of the box he's limited to constantly tangling with defenders. Despite his great first touch and strength he seems to struggle.

 

We've already seen this season what Viduka's like up top in that formation and he's just know good at it, the amount of free kicks he gives away is quite shocking, he needs the ball into his feet rather than coming at him from head height and as you say his mobility is pretty poor.

 

Kenwyn Jones would have been a good signing for that formation, he's like a poor mans Drogba.

[Guest Knightrider]

I hope he does get the time, talk of sack now is absurd, but football is an impatient game, its a money game now and the more money, the less time there is to get it right. Its the high pressure of the football world at the top, its why Sam clears in a week more than 80% of the UK population does in a year. So taking that into consideration, his job is also to get it right now, as well as later on, thats really all i'm saying.

 

Money does play a part but as any successful business man will know, you make even more money when you are consistently producing the goods and that can only come from having a sound business plan with good foundations. I'm sure Big Sam will get enough time, providing fans stay onside.

 

The formation change hasn't worked, as we've looked stale in attack, and disorganised at the back. The results have been to the wire most games, and we could of been looking a lot worse bar a couple of incidents, this worryingly after the easiest start i've seen on paper to an EPL season for us. IMO we'd have done better in a settled 442 from the start of the season, but really there is no way to prove that.

 

We look stale in attack and disorganised regardless of what formation we play or who plays where, although having said that we've had no problem scoring goals at home so things can't be too stale up front. I probably agree we'd have done better in a settled 4-4-2 from the start but it would only get ripped up in a year's time anyway, so why not start as you mean to go on? Of course that's impacted results and performances but I don't think by any large swing due to us being a sub standard team regardless, so its swings and roundabouts only in the near future, we'll be much better off for it and that's what everyone has to focus on, which I'm sure Mort and Ashley are doing.

[Taylor Swift]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally fucked. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

[Guest optimistic nit]

i think viduka would be good in a 433. in that formation the striker is essentially up against 2 centrebacks. you need a striker who can do a lot without much space and viduka fits that descripion perfectly. 433 doesn't have to result in a long ball game. viduka also, while not good in the air with his back to goal, is lethal feeding off crosses. i think it could work, and further more tieing into another thread i can't think of any player i'd have in front of riquelme as one of the 2 att mids in a none long ball 433. i think it would be close to his perfect role.

 

[nufc4eva]

It has to be said that man u at times line up like this also.

 

They had rooney and ronaldo off saha at times and also off tevez. but the way they play is more to feet and try to play their way up the pitch.

 

If only we had them three we would be laughing.

 

imho Rooney and ronaldo are two of the best at playing in a 4-3-3 although ferguson has switched to playing 4-4-2 again at times it does look like a 4-3-3 with ronaldo tucking in and rooney dropping off slightly with giggs tucking in the centre and it works very well. However they appear to have players very comfortable in and out of possesion. We don't seem to have that.

 

Arsenal also play with one up front at times but they are well ........ a completely different matter entirely

 

 

[Baggio]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally fucked. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

 

The obvious thing to do is bring in another manager who also prefers the 4-3-3 formation.

[Guest Knightrider]

Kenwyn Jones would have been a good signing for that formation, he's like a poor mans Drogba.

 

I wasn't impressed, although I agree with your sentiments. I wouldn't mind Crouch or Heskey in January myself, although I'd prefer Crouch as he's younger, not as injury prone and scores more goals. I'd be worried such a player would make it far easier for us just to lump it long though. Anelka is the one for that role if we are talking ideally.

[The College Dropout]

To your first question HTT. I ask because it's clear you've put in the time and thought to really analyze the future movements of Big Sam. I personally can hardly ever be bothered to type more than one 5 line paragraph. I reckon Sam pays you to be his internet street-team.. telling us he knows what he's doing.

 

I too thought Smith was Viduka's replacement, i'm not so sure anymore. More likely the Dyer replacement.

 

Oba is more likely to nick a goal in an away game where we are under the kosh. He has the ability to score from absolutely nothing, with either foot, from anywhere around the 25 yard area. Owen can't do this, he needs the ball in the box. His inclusion in the team smacks me of someone scared to drop the star player.

 

He's manager of Newcastle United. We have managed to avoid a relegation battle with managers like Souness and Roeder. We aren't getting relegated. We don't need 4-5 short term signings.

 

I think Big Sam is winging it.

[Dokko]

I hope he does get the time, talk of sack now is absurd, but football is an impatient game, its a money game now and the more money, the less time there is to get it right. Its the high pressure of the football world at the top, its why Sam clears in a week more than 80% of the UK population does in a year. So taking that into consideration, his job is also to get it right now, as well as later on, thats really all i'm saying.

 

Money does play a part but as any successful business man will know, you make even more money when you are consistently producing the goods and that can only come from having a sound business plan with good foundations. I'm sure Big Sam will get enough time, providing fans stay onside.

 

The formation change hasn't worked, as we've looked stale in attack, and disorganised at the back. The results have been to the wire most games, and we could of been looking a lot worse bar a couple of incidents, this worryingly after the easiest start i've seen on paper to an EPL season for us. IMO we'd have done better in a settled 442 from the start of the season, but really there is no way to prove that.

 

We look stale in attack and disorganised regardless of what formation we play or who plays where, although having said that we've had no problem scoring goals at home so things can't be too stale up front. I probably agree we'd have done better in a settled 4-4-2 from the start but it would only get ripped up in a year's time anyway, so why not start as you mean to go on? Of course that's impacted results and performances but I don't think by any large swing due to us being a sub standard team regardless, so its swings and roundabouts only in the near future, we'll be much better off for it and that's what everyone has to focus on, which I'm sure Mort and Ashley are doing.

 

Well fingers crossed it all pans out the way you are hoping. I'd take all what you are saying as long as it happens. There's nothing really to argue about what you are saying, i just think the outcome could be different, but i hope you are right and it works out the way you are talking.

[nufc4eva]

Kenwyn jones gives defences a hell of a time and opens up space for other players. But and its a big but he can't shoot at all.

 

I really cant stand crouch like and hope we don't sign him. I still think that zigic would be a good signing if any. But one thing is for sure we need a big imposing striker who gives teams hell in the air and on the ground.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally fucked. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

 

Why should he?

 

"What about the next manager"

 

How about looking at it like this: Big Sam sorts 4-3-3 out, wins a cup and thus buries that noose around the club's neck, finishes in the top 5 a few times. What kind of club would he leave behind? A successful one and that's all that is important.

[Baggio]

Kenwyn Jones would have been a good signing for that formation, he's like a poor mans Drogba.

 

I wasn't impressed, although I agree with your sentiments. I wouldn't mind Crouch or Heskey in January myself, although I'd prefer Crouch as he's younger, not as injury prone and scores more goals. I'd be worried such a player would make it far easier for us just to lump it long though. Anelka is the one for that role if we are talking ideally.

 

Pretty sure Anelka played on the right at Bolton cutting inside, sometimes he was switched into the middle if fat Sam wanted to take advantage of a fullback being poor in the air and playing long diagonal balls, I'm not sure if he could play well up there full time.

 

Crouch would be a decent signing, like Viduka he lacks mobility but he wins flick on's better than anyone else in the league, maybe having 2 pacey strikers to take advantage of this.

[Taylor Swift]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally fucked. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

 

The obvious thing to do is bring in another manager who also prefers the 4-3-3 formation.

 

Who? Mourinho?

 

None of the managers we were linked with after Roeder left and who we could possibly attract prefers the 4-3-3. Not Houllier, Eriksson, Van Gaal, Koeman etc.

 

If Ashley gives Sam the cash to spend and SA decides to go with the 4-3-3, there's little room for failure. We'll be left with a squad bereft of players who excel in a 4-4-2 and would struggle to attract a good manager presuming that Allardyce left when we were in the shits.

[nufc4eva]

The most important thing to remember is the last 4 years since bobby left have been horrible. And the progress he made has been completely undone by clueless and the rodent. When sam came in he had a squad that was unbalanced, players with zero confidence, a horrific injury list amongst other things. He has had to deal with a lot so far and we were never going to go from that bad last season to a world class club on what little money sam appears to have been given. What he has done is to make the club more professional, cleaned up most of the injuries, made zog want to play football again, introduced new training methods and appears to manage his players very well.

 

What I hope he will do now is start to form a solid consistent team who whilst not playing pretty football do not look like they will be wiped away by decent teams.

 

Like it or not it will take 3 or 4 years for the damage them two idiots created to be turned around

[Guest Knightrider]

To your first question HTT. I ask because it's clear you've put in the time and thought to really analyze the future movements of Big Sam. I personally can hardly ever be bothered to type more than one 5 line paragraph. I reckon Sam pays you to be his internet street-team.. telling us he knows what he's doing.

 

I too thought Smith was Viduka's replacement, i'm not so sure anymore. More likely the Dyer replacement.

 

Oba is more likely to nick a goal in an away game where we are under the kosh. He has the ability to score from absolutely nothing, with either foot, from anywhere around the 25 yard area. Owen can't do this, he needs the ball in the box. His inclusion in the team smacks me of someone scared to drop the star player.

 

He's manager of Newcastle United. We have managed to avoid a relegation battle with managers like Souness and Roeder. We aren't getting relegated. We don't need 4-5 short term signings.

 

I think Big Sam is winging it.

 

My thoughts on Big Sam are borne out of close study of him, his methods and watching a hell of a lot of Bolton over the years because I've always thought "he'd do for us" so I like to think I have a good understanding of his methods and what not and an insight into how he thinks.

 

My next victim target is Aidy Boothroyd. 

 

I don't buy into Big Sam's comments about Smith replacing Dyer, as a body maybe, but not positionally. I think he was signed as a striker with the possible intention of letting Ameobi go eventually and maybe to replace Viduka long-term, or both.

 

I think Martins carries arguably our biggest goal threat so I agree, however he does require a number of chances to get on the scoresheet, perhaps more than Owen, and Sam being into his stats and whatnot, perhaps Owen just gets the nod. I'd ditch Owen though and start Martins alongside either Smith or Viduka because of his pace, explosiveness and his ability to harass which Owen rarely does.

 

Regarding Sam whinging it - well this is one job that will find him out so we'll know if he really is whinging it  the longer he is in the job. His Bolton record suggests to me though he's not as daft as he looks. There really is a lot of method to his madness.

[Taylor Swift]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally fucked. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

 

Why should he?

 

"What about the next manager"

 

How about looking at it like this: Big Sam sorts 4-3-3 out, wins a cup and thus buries that noose around the club's neck, finishes in the top 5 a few times. What kind of club would he leave behind? A successful one and that's all that is important.

 

If he's able to do that he won't go

[Guest optimistic nit]

[nufc4eva]

Also I think alot of people wanted oneill as manager or would take mourinho and 4-3-3 is there preferred formation as it also is for redknapp.

 

Even errikson only plays with 1 up front albeit with elano in a sort of free role behind. But its expected of ireland and petrov to get up to support the front man and to get behind the defence.

 

They have hamman playing a defensive midfield role with fernandes or johnson just infront and elano just in front again. Its a modified 4-5-1 that they really play and at times goes to a 4-3-3