Is Mike Ashley steering Newcastle United in the right direction?

[Howaythelads]

Genuine question

A lot seem to think that Ashley is/was willing to write off the debt to sell, how do we know that?

as anyone who was interested had to sign non disclossure agreements.

I would have thought that we would have been snapped up debt free for 80mil, even running at a loss.

It seems to me that he wanted 80mil plus the debts to him still had to be paid and thats why we had no buyers.

If thats the case (but its only my take on it) then we are a lot worse off.

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

This is likely to be as close to the truth as it gets. Nobody wants to deal with the man, he's just unrealistic. Simple as that.

[madras]

he's checking you know.

 

 

Nope. 

 

I've been busy and so was away from the forum for quite awhile, imagine my surprise at your "almost mandiarse like" position when I was able to return? 

 

through other interests i had reason to start looking balance sheets etc (ie the wife got a full time job so we had a position of having a bit cash spare and i was looking at investing a small but regular sum or paying off debts). after looking at the clubs accounts they looked bad, after asking those with accountancy etc qualifications they confirmed it. till then i hadn't really gave a toss providing the chairman provided funds for the manager.

[bealios]

Genuine question

A lot seem to think that Ashley is/was willing to write off the debt to sell, how do we know that?

as anyone who was interested had to sign non disclossure agreements.

I would have thought that we would have been snapped up debt free for 80mil, even running at a loss.

It seems to me that he wanted 80mil plus the debts to him still had to be paid and thats why we had no buyers.

If thats the case (but its only my take on it) then we are a lot worse off.

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

The price for the club was £100m in the summer, and this would have been for a debt free club, apart from the Barclays overdraft facility. THere would have been no money owed to Ashley. The price dropped to £80m at the last minute, but nobody had the cash.

 

I thought everyone had accepted this? THe idea that Ashley was trying to sell the club for £100m and after the sale the new owner would still owe Ashley £100m is nonsense.

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

 

Didn't Chris Mort say the debt had been cleared ?

 

 

[Guest bobthemag]

How are these huge profits going to be generated? 

 

The previous owners generated a fair bit for themselves. although the club was left with a bit of debt mind...

 

And how did they manage to do that?

 

By selling it to someone else before they had to pay the bill.

 

you don't have much idea do you

[OzzieMandias]

How are these huge profits going to be generated? 

 

The previous owners generated a fair bit for themselves. although the club was left with a bit of debt mind...

 

And how did they manage to do that?

 

By selling it to someone else before they had to pay the bill.

 

you don't have much idea do you

 

Funny, I was just thinking there was zero point in discussing anything with you as you're quite obviously clueless.

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

[Guest Roger Kint]

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

 

Presumably by being the manager of us when finishing somewhere between 18th and 20th in the Premier League would be my guess.

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

[Guest bobthemag]

How are these huge profits going to be generated? 

 

The previous owners generated a fair bit for themselves. although the club was left with a bit of debt mind...

 

And how did they manage to do that?

 

By selling it to someone else before they had to pay the bill.

 

you don't have much idea do you

 

Funny, I was just thinking there was zero point in discussing anything with you as you're quite obviously clueless.

 

so why don't you answer the question others have asked you. How do they manage to do that ie generate money ?

 

 

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

[buzza]

Irrelevant of whether he is doing this to get better resale value or to repay his earlier mismanangement, the truth is that we seem to be going in the right direction both on the pitch and management wise...

I can't complain too much at the moment. We will all know the answer in the summer when he invests or doesn't....

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

[Guest Roger Kint]

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

2 wins in 13 with tough games v Man Utd x 2, Arsenal, Liverpool etc coming up fast. We only stayed up with a 7 game run through KK's change of tactics. Quite frankly Allardyce had us sinking and theres no way he could have changed it like that.

 

If you know anything about football you will know Bolton and Blackburn are pretty much set up for his style of anti football with squads full of workmanlike players. We on the other hand were full of overpaid prima donnas with very little work ethic.

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

my opinion is, unfortunatly, based on what i was watching week in, week out, which to me counts for more than what he has done before or since.

[Guest bobthemag]

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

2 wins in 13 with tough games v Man Utd x 2, Arsenal, Liverpool etc coming up fast. We only stayed up with a 7 game run through KK's change of tactics. Quite frankly Allardyce had us sinking and theres no way he could have changed it like that.

 

If you know anything about football you will know Bolton and Blackburn are pretty much set up for his style of anti football with squads full of workmanlike players. We on the other hand were full of overpaid prima donnas with very little work ethic.

 

but it was Ashley who succeeded in taking us down ?

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

my opinion is, unfortunatly, based on what i was watching week in, week out, which to me counts for more than what he has done before or since.

 

so is mine, and his managerial record, rather than Mike Ashley's ownership record. One club. One relegation.

 

 

 

 

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

my opinion is, unfortunatly, based on what i was watching week in, week out, which to me counts for more than what he has done before or since.

 

so is mine, and his managerial record, rather than Mike Ashley's ownership record. One club. One relegation.

 

 

 

 

i posted where i saw the club going under fred and co on a previous page and also where i blamed ashley.

 

go take a look as it's not as clear cut as it seems.

[Guest bobthemag]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

my opinion is, unfortunatly, based on what i was watching week in, week out, which to me counts for more than what he has done before or since.

 

so is mine, and his managerial record, rather than Mike Ashley's ownership record. One club. One relegation.

 

 

 

 

i posted where i saw the club going under fred and co on a previous page and also where i blamed ashley.

 

go take a look as it's not as clear cut as it seems.

 

no, it isn't clear cut. So far he has taken us down, you can't say he is steering us in the right direction when we aren't even in the position he found us in yet. In fact, the current first team players at the club are inferior to the ones who were at the club when he bought it.

 

 

[madras]

If (and its a big if) we are back to challenging for Europe in 3-5 years then relegation will have been the catalyst for it imo. Its a lot easier to make drastic decisions in the CCC than the Premier League.

 

Owen would probably still be on our books if we had survivied, another 4 years before we could look to move forward then.

 

Weve been promoted  to premiership have we? weve spent on class centre forwards? weve replaced ryan taylor and nicky butt in midfield? weve survived the first season post championship?

 

f*** me you are THE over-expectand geordie fan myth played out by the media. You fuckin stupid c***.

 

WE WILL BE UP FOR SALE THE DAY WE ARE PROMOTED

 

 

Please give me a season of mediocrity before you piss me off again

 

Everyone seems to know how it should be done, for some reason no one will put their money where their mouth is and JUST DO IT.

 

Why are all the prospective buyers of Newcastle weighing their pennies and trying to buy the club at a stupidly low price and all their dithering will just allow Ashley to emerge the winner if promotion is achieved?

 

 

 

I don't imagine many are comfortable dealing with the t***.

Or the £150m of debt, which in the current market gives NUFC a net value of next to nothing.

 

The debt has been there all along. If the interested parties wanted a a massive club capable of generating huge future profits without any debt then this just proves they weren't prepared to commit any investment risk at all.

 

Could have sworn some people mentioned last week that one of Ashley's greatest achievements was that the club now has no debt.

 

we only have as much debt as the owner wants to claw back (and if last summers asking price were true he will take a fair old loss)

 

the difference isn't the debt anyway, as many have said all along, it's the way it is structured . far betteroff owe the money to the owner as he is unlikely to call it in (gibson,lerner,abramovich) than owe it to financial institutions and the taxman who will call it in (cardiff,portsmouth,leeds etc)

 

So you agree there is a debt after all.  Those know-nowt morons who said there wasn't.

 

Anyway, so we can strike clearing the club debt off the list of your hero's achievements.

 

What's left.....?

if he had sold up for 80mill it could be argued he'd wrote off the debt.

 

 

 

"your hero"....doesn't become you htl.

 

Fawning over this cretin doesn't become you either, Madras. I don't expect anything sensible from mandiarse but I really thought you had more sense, tbh.

how am i fawing over him by recognising the s*** position we were in when he took over. ashley didn't help a great deal, his handling of kinnear etc was the biggestsingle mistake he made that caused our relegation from his side but i also think had he not took over allardyce would have took us down and we'd have been in even bigger s****.

 

how would Allardyce have relegated us ?

it's my opinion that we were playing that bad, the players looked demoralised under his brand of football that had he not gone we'd have gone down and he'd been able to bring his own players in to do it.

 

 

like Blackburn and Bolton ?

 

 

no like us the way we were playing for the majority of that season with him.

 

which was the same as Bolton and Blackburn ?

 

 

nope it wasn't. at those clubs he brought in players to play to that system. here he brought in smith and barton to play alongside the already here owen and martins......it wasn't going to work. our players looked like they couldn't stand the system and played like it.

 

so he has a good history of keeping teams in the premiership but you think he would have taken us down ?

 

 

yes with the team he had and the way they were playing. i dont really care what he done elsewhere. i'll use what i saw of his time here as my prime evidence.

 

he has a record of keeping teams in the premiership on a shoestring so your opinion is just that, an opinion with no basis.

 

Anyway, his successor(s) at both managerial level and ownership succeeded in taking us down regardless.

 

 

my opinion is, unfortunatly, based on what i was watching week in, week out, which to me counts for more than what he has done before or since.

 

so is mine, and his managerial record, rather than Mike Ashley's ownership record. One club. One relegation.

 

 

 

 

i posted where i saw the club going under fred and co on a previous page and also where i blamed ashley.

 

go take a look as it's not as clear cut as it seems.

 

no, it isn't clear cut. So far he has taken us down, you can't say he is steering us in the right direction when we aren't even in the position he found us in yet. In fact, the current first team players at the club are inferior to the ones who were at the club when he bought it.

 

 

and where did i say he was steering us in the right direction ?

 

what i do say is i'd rather be in this position than the one i envisaged of relegation with fred at the helm and the banks etc shitting themselves we can't service our debt.