Is the Champions League warping the domestic game? (Can we be top 4 again?)

[thewellander]

It goes deeper than just the money. Even if we had the money to sign the best of the best, those players want to play in the Champions League, and we can't guarantee them that.

 

But, with that said, I don't think that a 4th place finish is out of the question for a lot of teams. Winning the EPL is just out of the question for anyone who isn't Man U, Chelsea and maybe Arsenal and Liverpool.

[Parky]

It goes deeper than just the money. Even if we had the money to sign the best of the best, those players want to play in the Champions League, and we can't guarantee them that.

 

But, with that said, I don't think that a 4th place finish is out of the question for a lot of teams. Winning the EPL is just out of the question for anyone who isn't Man U, Chelsea and maybe Arsenal and Liverpool.

 

Since 2001 bar us twice and Everton once no other team other than the 'the big 4' have qualifyied for the CL.

[thewellander]

It goes deeper than just the money. Even if we had the money to sign the best of the best, those players want to play in the Champions League, and we can't guarantee them that.

 

But, with that said, I don't think that a 4th place finish is out of the question for a lot of teams. Winning the EPL is just out of the question for anyone who isn't Man U, Chelsea and maybe Arsenal and Liverpool.

 

Since 2001 bar us twice and Everton once no other team other than the 'the big 4' have qualifyied for the CL.

 

Good point. And the sad thing is that when Everton qualified, Liverpool still got in as well.

[Parky]

It goes deeper than just the money. Even if we had the money to sign the best of the best, those players want to play in the Champions League, and we can't guarantee them that.

 

But, with that said, I don't think that a 4th place finish is out of the question for a lot of teams. Winning the EPL is just out of the question for anyone who isn't Man U, Chelsea and maybe Arsenal and Liverpool.

 

Since 2001 bar us twice and Everton once no other team other than the 'the big 4' have qualifyied for the CL.

 

Good point. And the sad thing is that when Everton qualified, Liverpool still got in as well.

 

The only way out of this is limiting to 3 foreign players and getting rid of the group stage - which is only there as insurance that one of the top clubs doesn't get upset.

[tmonkey]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

[Guest BlueWhiteMonkey]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

 

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor.

 

It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club.

[tmonkey]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

[Parky]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

 

I was quoting the stats.....Not full blown hyperbole as you  seem partial to.

[Parky]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

[Parky]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

 

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor.

 

It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club.

 

It's not about the odd team qualifying once every 3/4 years it's about rollover qualification.

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

 

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor.

 

It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club.

 

It's not about the odd team qualifying once every 3/4 years it's about rollover qualification.

 

you do remember that we have been rollover qualifiers before? Why did that fact not ensure we stayed on the gravy train if you posit what you do in this post?

[Baggio]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

 

I'm not sure how you can say Lyon have the stranglehold they do over French football because of CL money, their spending has been fairly moderate in recent years when you consider they got over £40 million for Essien and Diarra.

 

 

[Parky]

Just dont buy these sorts of arguements.

 

What next after CL money? Barcelona, Madrid and AC Milan have too grand a history, meaning the best players in the world only want to play for them - does that mean we should demolish their museums and trophy cabinets, burn all the history books, and forget everything theyve won and the players that have played for them, just to even things out?

 

Maybe London clubs will start complaining that Newcastle are a one-club city, and that there should be more large football clubs in the city to give everyone a level footing?

 

What about Bolton fans moaning that they cant match the finances of other clubs because theyre a small club in a small city? Maybe we should limit the capacities/attendances of all bigger clubs just so that others can have a chance?

 

Ridiculous imo, and logic youd expect to find in a special needs class where "everybody gets a chance". If a team isnt good enough to win, if they dont have the finances, the structure, the planning, the personnel, the resources, the fanbase, to win things, then thats their problem.

 

And I just cant help but think its bollocks to say NOONE can get into the top four again. The same people saying this no doubt were the ones saying NOONE will win the Premiership again other than Chelsea because they were simply buying the title, but that looks far from the case this season.

 

All it takes is some good planning, coaching, and team building, and a good season from the players, and it would be pretty easy to challenge for the top 4. Everton got in there the season before last then blew it, Spurs could and should have got in there last season but blew it - top 4 is far from impossible, but so far these teams have blown their chances because of their own failures, their own inabilities. If a small club like Bolton can challenge for it, a club that spends once every 4 seasons what we spend every summer, then clearly its not impossible for others with significantly bigger budgets to do similar.

 

The reason we arent up there challenging for a top 4 spot is far more down to do our own problems then it is to do with any external competition or monopoly. We cant appoint s*** managers with s*** records, who make s*** decisions on the pitch and in the transfer market, and then point at the top 4 and say "youre the reason why were struggling".

 

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor.

 

It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club.

 

It's not about the odd team qualifying once every 3/4 years it's about rollover qualification.

 

you do remember that we have been rollover qualifiers before? Why did that fact not ensure we stayed on the gravy train if you posit what you do in this post?

 

The CL needs to dump the group stage and make itself a real competition again, where there will be nights when 'smaller clubs' will knock out bigger clubs as used to happen. What we have now is a competition where this is virtually impossible, the group stage and the devious seeding ensures the fat cat clubs always make it to the last 8. I can only think of Porto in recent history upsetting the apple cart.

[tmonkey]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

 

Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc.

 

Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now.

 

And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances?

 

Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs?

 

Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap.

 

In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players.

[Parky]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

 

Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc.

 

Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now.

 

And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances?

 

Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs?

 

Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap.

 

In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players.

 

First let me say good post. I too have been mulling these variables and core structure development (scouting/training/management) clearly have a competitive effect and I agree with that. But it seems to me these days that odd club that looks like it will break through ie Spurs is again set back by pressure being put on its best players bu the financial clout of the top4. Witness the exit of Carrick arguably their best player next to King....And various rumours that Arsenal and Chelsea fancy King (can't remember if he's signed a new deal).

 

It is clear clubs like Chelsea have a naked strategy now of buying up the best players even if they aren't going to be used or just to keep them away from other sides...SWP, Mikel, Essien...

How long will we be able to keep Owen without a top 4 finish? Or for that matter Martins?

The bottom line is that I want the CL again to be a real competition and not a gravy train....Because I can see now and it will be clearer in 4/5 years that this gravy train is destroying domestic competition.

 

3 foreign players

Players have to stay at clubs that developed them till they are 23

CL back to a knockout competitioon

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

 

Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc.

 

Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now.

 

And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances?

 

Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs?

 

Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap.

 

In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players.

 

First let me say good post. I too have been mulling these variables and core structure development (scouting/training/management) clearly have a competitive effect and I agree with that. But it seems to me these days that odd club that looks like it will break through ie Spurs is again set back by pressure being put on its best players bu the financial clout of the top4. Witness the exit of Carrick arguably their best player next to King....And various rumours that Arsenal and Chelsea fancy King (can't remember if he's signed a new deal).

 

It is clear clubs like Chelsea have a naked strategy now of buying up the best players even if they aren't going to be used or just to keep them away from other sides...SWP, Mikel, Essien...

How long will we be able to keep Owen without a top 4 finish? Or for that matter Martins?

The bottom line is that I want the CL again to be a real competition and not a gravy train....Because I can see now and it will be clearer in 4/5 years that this gravy train is destroying domestic competition.

 

3 foreign players

Players have to stay at clubs that developed them till they are 23

CL back to a knockout competitioon

 

did I not say that 10 posts earlier?

 

clubs that developed players are already protected, extending that to 23 is an absolute joke, once again not recognising why players leave clubs

 

limiting nationalities is not only illegal, it is completely daft. All it will mean is that no English club will ever reach the last 4 of the CL

 

 

leave this thread here Parky, it's a total joke man

[Parky]

PS As a sidenote, look at La Liga as an example. Prime example of CL money not being the deciding factor - Sevilla, Valencia, Villarreal briefly. All it takes is the buidling of one good team with a good manager and teams can challenge/win titles despite having been mid table fodder previously.

 

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

 

Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc.

 

Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now.

 

And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances?

 

Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs?

 

Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap.

 

In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players.

 

First let me say good post. I too have been mulling these variables and core structure development (scouting/training/management) clearly have a competitive effect and I agree with that. But it seems to me these days that odd club that looks like it will break through ie Spurs is again set back by pressure being put on its best players bu the financial clout of the top4. Witness the exit of Carrick arguably their best player next to King....And various rumours that Arsenal and Chelsea fancy King (can't remember if he's signed a new deal).

 

It is clear clubs like Chelsea have a naked strategy now of buying up the best players even if they aren't going to be used or just to keep them away from other sides...SWP, Mikel, Essien...

How long will we be able to keep Owen without a top 4 finish? Or for that matter Martins?

The bottom line is that I want the CL again to be a real competition and not a gravy train....Because I can see now and it will be clearer in 4/5 years that this gravy train is destroying domestic competition.

 

3 foreign players

Players have to stay at clubs that developed them till they are 23

CL back to a knockout competitioon

 

did I not say that 10 posts earlier?

 

clubs that developed players are already protected, extending that to 23 is an absolute joke, once again not recognising why players leave clubs

 

limiting nationalities is not only illegal, it is completely daft. All it will mean is that no English club will ever reach the last 4 of the CL

 

 

leave this thread here Parky, it's a total joke man

 

 

Vic's football knowledge...

 

You seem to have overlooked we dominated the European Cup for a decade without foreign players...

 

Football has turned a wrong corner and it needs fixing.

 

I don't give a fuck about EU employement law...What are they going to do shut down football?

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

Vic's football knowledge...

 

You seem to have overlooked we dominated the European Cup for a decade without foreign players...

 

Football has turned a wrong corner and it needs fixing.

 

I don't give a fuck about EU employement law...What are they going to do shut down football?

 

Parky's football knowledge...

 

I think you'll find in that decade that foreign players didn't freely move teams and foreign teams contained mostly one nationality. I think you'll also find that was a decade devoid of fitness trainers, sports psychologists and chinese medicine, hence why good old fashion British grit won through

 

Fixing the game by enforcing rule changes? Don't make me laugh man, you completely ignore every past precedent FFS.

 

The problem is greedy players and agents, not clubs or competition prizes. You seriously think that if by some miracle we finish one place outside the CL this season that all the players would stay at the club and on the same wage?

 

And the EU banning football? Yes, quite ridiculous, like that's never happened before has it? Damn fucking right they would shut it down if the FA went against EU law. Christ Parky, you come up with some shit schemes, but you're taking the piss now

 

[Parky]

You know as well as I do Vic that the CL is fast developing into a monopoly of the few devoid of any real competition, with a group stage to eliminate any shock results...As you are also aware of the power now being wielded by G14 (even Mourinho has been on about that especially the seedings and the last minute referee changes) and tbf he has no worries about qualifying does he.

 

When they do finally show their true colours and we have a breakaway Euro Superleague......Think what will happen to your precious SKY money then....It will happen, it's the next logical step of GREED.

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

You know as well as I do Vic that the CL is fast developing into a monopoly of the few devoid of any real competition, with a group stage to eliminate any shock results...As you are also aware of the power now being wielded by G14 (even Mourinho has been on about that especially the seedings and the last minute referee changes) and tbf he has no worries about qualifying does he.

 

When they do finally show their true colours and we have a breakaway Euro Superleague......Think what will happen to your precious SKY money then....It will happen, it's the next logical step of GREED.

 

You know as well as I am not saying that it hasn't, the difference being you don't realise the true reason for it, and are suggesting totally absurd ways of fixing it

 

The Euro League will never happen for a multitude of sound reasons, so I'm not too worried. (as if Sky wouldn't be broadcasting it anyway FFS )