Unbelievable

Don't you think the value of the approach is dependent on the quality and knowledge of the person using it, or is it valuable all by itself? It is and that's why good coaches, scouts, and development policies are essential. The 4 corners of development scale is just a tool to aide coaches, scouts and to determine development policies. This scale in the wrong hands is pretty much wasted. But then so is talent and indeed whole football clubs. Anyway I posted it up as a means for myself and others if they wanted to, to try an alternative way to assess our players and maybe even potential new signings and to also raise the level of debate on here in these areas that usually ends up "he's s***, end of" or "he's great, end of". Using the scale properly with all the associated support material (which I don't have sadly) I think a reasonable level of certainty can be gained from it where assessment of players are concerned and with it, what the team may require other than the forum standard "lets sign (insert player) here, he's good" type analysis. For example if there is a clear pattern showing that the players grouped together are weak psychologically, or technically, this may show fans where the management need to work on or what type of player needs brought in because it's about 'type' and not 'who' you know which is a mistake many past managers of ours have made. Owen for example was a who and not a type. In short we should never have signed him as he wasn't the right type of player for that team nor the manager who bought him. I mean there is a thread about Defoe where people are saying we should have bought him, yet for all we know, Defoe here may not work or be any better than Martins. The 4 corners scale could actually identify whether Defoe would work here or not. I guess I'm saying look further than the front of your nose and think about the game, our players and our club and maybe then we'd be in a better position to understand it and the many facets that make it up rather than what we've all become today, ignorant, myopic, fickle bastards who wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. Or not. Fair enough.

Don't you think the value of the approach is dependent on the quality and knowledge of the person using it, or is it valuable all by itself?

Him buying out his contract is approx the same amount as what a club would have to pay for him though. If his wage were 20K a week it would be worthwhile but his wages are so high it makes buying out not really an option when the release clause in his contract for about £6 million. Who knows? What if a club comes knocking and say to him they will have him for free if he pays out his contract with us? Or they pay the sum in the clause if he will wave his signing on fee and possibly accept lower wages than he's on with us.. If it's one of the big 4, I believe he would jump at the chance..

True, and he probably will, so it's not in our hands.. Why would he stump a shed load of his own money up when a club who wants can buy him £6 million. He would be foolish to do such thing. Or he could return to Liverpool or another big club who might be interested in a free? He could get the buyout money back through a signing on fee. He doesn't look happy or inspired with us, I can see how his decision will be based on things other than money.

True, and he probably will, so it's not in our hands..

The journalist's (and not Allardyce's) comment "We will never know if Allardyce could have turned Newcastle into a consistent force, but we can surely agree that he would not have led them into their present pickle perilously close to the relegation zone." is a bit infuriating, but I can't find much fault with what Allardyce says himself. He was sacked too early, and deserved at least a full season to see what he could do.

Much more subjective than you make it look..

Where did he say this? Martins must be thrilled..

Uefa dodgy? I can´t believe it!

Owen fearful of England omission Michael Owen believes he could miss out on Fabio Capello's England squad to face France on March 26 if Newcastle's miserable run of results continues. The 28-year-old striker has scored only five goals for the Magpies this season during an injury-hit campaign. Owen told BBC Radio 5 Live: "When you are down it's hard to be listened to. "Results are not going well and, when you are not playing well as a team and individually, then individuals will not get picked for the national team." The former Liverpool and Real Madrid frontman was an unused substitute during Capello's first match in charge - a 2-1 win over Switzerland on 6 February. "The new manager has only had one game in charge and that was a friendly so we will see what develops," added Owen. The Magpies are three points above the drop zone in 15th place and face crucial matches against fellow-strugglers Birmingham, Fulham and Reading in three of their next four matches. Owen added: "We are expected to get points and we need to pick them up now. "There are certain clubs that criticism attracts. People see the support we get and if we are not up there in the prominent positions then people ask why. "But I'm at a club where you feel like a spark will get us back on the crest of the wave and help us move up the league - that can give us a platform to build on." Not much wrong with that if you ask me. Now only if he finds his scoring boots..

Old "news"

Good news at least the younguns are capable of finding the net..

They do have something extra, their physical strengths more often than not. Trust me, what talent is in academies isn't that much different to what is out there in Sunday league kids' football. The gap isn't that big. I suggest you go and watch a few academy games and then a few normal Sunday league kids' football games to see for yourself. What you will notice is that a lot of academy kids are bigger, stronger and quicker but natural ability wise, there isn't much between them. Your theory may apply to academies in the UK, but certainly doesn't apply to academies that are more successful at nurturing talent, such as in Holland, France and Brazil. Just look at Ajax for an example: most of their (former) players are midgets but they are technically very good and gifted. According to your theory the likes of Van der Vaart and Sneijder wouldn't have a chance to make it as a footballer. The facts are they are amongst the best in their profession because they showed early promise technically and joined an academy capable of developing that talent.. I would say you have just chosen the country and club which probably backs up Coach's argument better than any other. It is well known Dutch clubs, particularly Ajax, have been streets ahead of most other countries for their acadamies. At Ajax they were teaching kids how to dance and stuff to improve their balance years and years ago, as well as making them play with tenis balls in small spaces with small goals. It might not be a complete coincidence that they generally tend to have apparently gifted ball players. However I do agree with your point - if it is all down to coaching, why aren't they all as good as Van der Vaart on the ball, since they've all had the same coaching? I think you misunderstood Coach's point tbh..

They do have something extra, their physical strengths more often than not. Trust me, what talent is in academies isn't that much different to what is out there in Sunday league kids' football. The gap isn't that big. I suggest you go and watch a few academy games and then a few normal Sunday league kids' football games to see for yourself. What you will notice is that a lot of academy kids are bigger, stronger and quicker but natural ability wise, there isn't much between them. Your theory may apply to academies in the UK, but certainly doesn't apply to academies that are more successful at nurturing talent, such as in Holland, France and Brazil. Just look at Ajax for an example: most of their (former) players are midgets but they are technically very good and gifted. According to your theory the likes of Van der Vaart and Sneijder wouldn't have a chance to make it as a footballer. The facts are they are amongst the best in their profession because they showed early promise technically and joined an academy capable of developing that talent..

Does it REALLY matter HOW Martins scores his goals..?

So we went from no football brain to a lack of intelligence to a lack of coordination, all of which doesn´t detract from the fact he´s the most treathening striker currently at the club by a country mile..

Oh dear..

We rescued him from the subs bench & have given him a nice big salary. Same with Owen. Same with Duff. Nick Butt. Likewise Parker. In fact we rescue so many big name players from the bench we should be honoured at the Pride Of Britain awards. I agree they are no mugs that is why they sold him. At the same time they were getting mega value for money by screwing the s*** out of Juve for Ibrahimovic. Both great moves for Inter. Was I talking rubbish when I said he should start? Or is it only rubbish when people dont agree with you. It´s rubbish because Martins had 37 appearances for Inter in 2003/2004, 45 in 2004-2005 and 42 in 2005/2006. You are right, he hardly ever played.. Can you break them down into starts & subs appearances & the total number of games Inter played each season. If you could tell me which strikers were at the club at the time & any major injuries them players may of had. Sometimes looking at things in a very simplistic way may suit your mindset but not mine. There´s nothing simplistic about 125 appearances in 3 seasons. He wasn´t their first choice striker, but for a youngster to get 125 appearances in 3 seasons they clearly rated him, and that was at a bigger club than this. What makes you think he owes us everything? He´s being benched to accomodate a striker who hasn´t scored in over 2 seasons ffs, when this time last season the likes of Chelsea were sniffing around..

We rescued him from the subs bench & have given him a nice big salary. Same with Owen. Same with Duff. Nick Butt. Likewise Parker. In fact we rescue so many big name players from the bench we should be honoured at the Pride Of Britain awards. I agree they are no mugs that is why they sold him. At the same time they were getting mega value for money by screwing the s*** out of Juve for Ibrahimovic. Both great moves for Inter. Was I talking rubbish when I said he should start? Or is it only rubbish when people dont agree with you. When you claim Martins owes us everything because we rescued him from obivion it´s clearly rubbish because Martins had 37 appearances for Inter in 2003/2004, 45 in 2004-2005 and 42 in 2005/2006. You are right, he hardly ever played..

If any club really wanted him they could of got him. He owes us everything he went from a squad player at Inter to wearing the symbolic shirt at Newcastle United & for the first time in his career he was a recognised starter. I think you drastically overestimate the prestige of the Newcastle #9 shirt outside the Tyneside area, to be honest. He probably regrets leaving Inter, where he'd be winning medals and would probably get a few games for them, or be a frequently used sub at the very least, given the desperate lack of pace in their team. Agreed, Martins isn´t even a regular starter this season, certainly not in his preferred position anyhow, so I don´t know where this ´he owes us everything´ comes from. Inter Milan are no mugs are they? He had around 40 runouts for them every season in the three seasons preceding his transfer to us. Talking rubbish again Thespence, are we..?

agreed Agree, he's a good outlet that can stretch the defence of other teams. Should look to upgrade though if we stay up. Although I don´t disagree per se I can think of about 8 positions where we should look to upgrade before we think about upgrading on Martins. We´d be better off looking for someone to play alongside him and to his strengths rather than upgrade on himself in the short run..

I don't think he's a "c***". Just a crap footballer. Gives his all, tries his best etc, but his best simply isn't anywhere near good enough. For me it's not that he doesn't score goals, it's that he doesn't even look like scoring a goal. He never has a shot, never gets in the box, and never sets anyone else up for a shot either. Aye. The people slating Smith to such an extent are f****** embarrassing, although I do appreciate that emotions are running high at the moment. He's been very poor, yes, but by all accounts he's an honest lad and he always seems to give 100%. There are people at this club who have been very poor for more than three quarters of a season, and who most certainly haven't given 100% to this football club in their time. There are quite a few in the current squad who I'd reserve that sort of bile for ahead of Smith, to be honest, but he's become an easy scapegoat. 100% that what u base on picking a player then u could pick from 52,000 playing every week cos that is what every one would give, his football talent is none should be a hairdresser IMO I don't actually understand that bit. I've read it about 5 times now and it still doesn't make any sense. Reshuffle the words and add some punctuation until you get something meaningful, well sort of: "100%, that what u base picking a player on?"

Intelligence, instinct, coachable or not, whatever.. All that matters at the current point in time is that we play to our best players' strength. Glad everybody on here seems to agree on that. Sadly, the men in charge of the football club don't seem to see things the way we do.. Edit: I mean "best players' strength" rather than "best player's strength". Not suggesting Martins is our best player per se, although he is up there with the best for me..

Everything I thought put down into words much better than I could have..

I thought that lately too. Agreed. We seem to be going around in circles with this argument about Smith vs Martins.