Unbelievable

Rafael would have been far worse.

Only just noticed the Santa's on the pitch in the forum header..

Aye, the obvious difference in quality and quantity between their squads and ours has nothing to do with it..

Funny, in the last four matches we have seen Cisse play wide right in what looks more like a 451/433. I've certainly not seen another striker alongside Ba, so to me it looks like Pardew is trying to change our style of play despite two crucial cogs missing for that system to work as you say, only with Ba central and Cisse out wide which is defendable considering their respective goalscoring records this season.

Easy tiger, it's just a crazy rumour. Nice to dream, though. Even if it happens, then Sigurdsson is still v. young, and perfectly placed to be his replacement. It would make more sense to ask "why bother with Dempsey". In either case, it's because we want to be in four competitions every year. I mean, what kind of crazy person goes into four competitions without adequate cover in every position? Just jealous like. It just goes to show where investment can actually take you. Obviously we've had other problems but it was inevitable we'd slip away when yous, Liverpool, Everton and basically everybody else actually spent money this summer. Chance wasted, depressing. Yeah. I wouldn't get too annoyed about any Spurs deal mentioned in the paper because, frankly, they just make most of the s*** up. However, Liverpool spending money is annoying, because they wasted a s***-load on Dalglish. They had their new comedy sponsorship deal which meant they could just spend their way out of trouble again. We've actually got worse by losing our best two players, essentially. Everton must be the big irritation for you guys. I mean, they didn't spend much IIRC (within their means at least, which isn't much), but they spent where it was needed. Everyone knew where you needed to strengthen, but it just didn't happen - at least, not nearly enough. You bolstered the squad a bit, but didn't actually improve the first XI (which is the key need every year), and why in the absolute f*** did he not buy a CB?! I was going to suggest that he should take us as an example (we usually had two or three CBs injured last year) but he didn't even need to look that far. Didn't you struggle last year when Colo/Taylor got injured? Certainly some good points, but who is this "he" you keep referring to?

My point about hindsight is quite obviously regarding the combination of Ba and Cisse in the type of formation/collaboration you have just described perfectly.

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong.. As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me. As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba? Beggars f***ing belief this like. I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself. The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season. If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season. We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results? Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here. Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't members of this forum who've expressed their concern about these players in a 4-4-2 since the beginning of last season? Pardew got away with 'keep it tight, nobody move, pass it to Ba' for a good while and it was fun but so many people on here were talking about it being unsustainable. We're discrediting the concept of these players in a 4-4-2 with hindsight? I've heard everything now. A 442 with Ba and Cisse up top, both central, both capable of 25 goals a season in that position in theory and Ben Arfa in support, starting from the right but with a license to roam? It worked with lesser players (Best, Shola) to an extent last season, so yes, I feel it was definitely worth a shot. If Cisse had brought his shooting boots from summer holiday we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Fijne kerstdagen!

Dave, you know as well as I do that Cisse has only been asked to play out on the wing in the last couple of matches, coincidentally in the period where Pardew has tried to change the two men up top tactics and also a period in which our first choice right winger (Ben Arfa) has been out injured. To claim he hasn't been scoring goals this season because he has been asked to play out wide for a few matches is gross oversimplification I wouldn't expect from a good poster like you. He's been denied playing in his position (in the middle of a 3) all season though. Well, that would be because if what you are saying is true, "his position" does not exist in Pardew's apparently preferred formation, which begs the question: can he work as part of a front two or in other formations where he isn't the lone striker with two wide forwards, or is he another Darren Bent who needs the team/formation built around him? I would have hoped he was a bit more versatile than that, and based on what I've seen so far in terms of interplay and movement (mainly last season) I think he is to be honest. Apparently it is hard to accept for some people that a good striker can sometimes just have a bad spell of form in front of goal.

Dave, you know as well as I do that Cisse has only been asked to play out on the wing in the last couple of matches, coincidentally in the period where Pardew has tried to change the two men up top tactics and also a period in which our first choice right winger (Ben Arfa) has been out injured. To claim he hasn't been scoring goals this season because he has been asked to play out wide for a few matches is gross oversimplification I wouldn't expect from a good poster like you. For what it's worth I fully agree with Padrew being too negative tactically, and needing to change things around, which he appears to be doing. I don't think just because I feel he can and should do better anything he says is worthy of ridicule, regardless of whether it is valid or not.

I'm going off on a tangent by pointing out the inconsistency in two things you have written within half an hour of each other, yet you have the cheek to pull people up on defending our last transfer window (as you called it) a few months ago, whilst not singularly criticising Pardew for our current rut now?

Yep, aside from his creativity and passing ability, his all-around workrate is very important to the team. You've got to assume that if just running about was causing him pain every week then it's a reasonable excuse for his below-par performances. You write this within half an hour of taking the p*ss out of Pardew for suggesting Cisse's lack of goals may be related to Ben Arfa and Cabaye missing due to injury. Well done for consistency. Ben Arfa out + 442 not working + Ba the only striker scoring= Cisse on the wing or out of the first team. Seems so logical now you mention it. FYP

He wasn't getting stick for that. Might be an idea to actually read the posts....This place indeed Then what the flying fuck was this all about: That was down to Laudrup though, his knowledge of players is far better than Pardew's i would think in Spain. Our manager picked Obertan.....brilliant

Yep, aside from his creativity and passing ability, his all-around workrate is very important to the team. You've got to assume that if just running about was causing him pain every week then it's a reasonable excuse for his below-par performances. You write this within half an hour of taking the piss out of Pardew for suggesting Cisse's lack of goals may be related to Ben Arfa and Cabaye missing due to injury. Well done for consistency.

Pardew getting stick because Swansea have managed to pick up a player from abroad who has done well? This place at the moment

We managed to find one at about 4:30 on Saturday, the sly b****** must have been in hiding. As if Cisse would have 100% scored that "chance". Marv's little wait and pass was important like, but it was hardly put on a plate for Shola..

In what world is going from 5th to a current 14th place classed as stability? Exactly the kind of short-termist defeatism I'm on about. Didn't you call me delusional a couple of days ago for refusing to say we were realistically in a relegation battle?

Michu for Ba would be ideal. He could play behind Cisse in an intelligent manner. Messi for Ba would be ideal and equally as realistic. Equally? Yes, as in 0% chance of it happening. It's highly unlikely but 0 per cent isn't true. They're worth vaguely similar amounts of money for a start. Didn't you used to be an easy going Dutchman btw, what's going on with you? Semantics, both won't happen. As for your second comment, I'm just unhappy about this happy go lucky place going to waste due to all the negativity. We finished fifth last season, are in Europe, have a good core of players and finally some stability. We're in a bit of a rut at the moment, but it appears to me many regular posters on here are desperate for things to fall apart so they can say I told you so.

Michu for Ba would be ideal. He could play behind Cisse in an intelligent manner. Messi for Ba would be ideal and equally as realistic. Equally? Yes, as in 0% chance of it happening.

Michu for Ba would be ideal. He could play behind Cisse in an intelligent manner. Messi for Ba would be ideal and equally as realistic.

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong.. As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me. As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba? Beggars f***ing belief this like. I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself. The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season. If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season. None of that takes into account the fact that Cisse hasn't once been sent out as the middle striker of a 3 this season, and that may have something to do with his drop in form. I get it though, we're playing badly and getting s*** results but you two are concerned about changing anything Erm, Everton away first half, which was our worst performance of the season by a mile coincidentally.. I haven't said we shouldn't change anything. In fact, for the last 4 matches we have. Doesn't seem to have appeased you much..

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong.. As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me. As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba? Beggars f***ing belief this like. I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself. The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season. If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season. We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results? Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

How would playing Ba wide left and Cisse in the centre help having a stable back 5 and cut out individual errors from the likes of Colo and Tiote?