Raconteur

So you can say (Souness aside), that you were not happy when Dalglish and Gullit were appointed as managers of NUFC, especially with their track records?

It's very difficult to answer that question without being accused of being a revisionist. Anyone who says "I had reservations at the time for reasons x, y and z" is immediately assumed to be lying to make themselves look prophetic...

 

Well it certainly went against his reportedly strict criteria. He didn't even scout the lad once in person to my knowledge, nevermind the numerous time he took over another foraign import namely Kuyt.

 

Nevertheless, I cannot see much point being overly critical, just as I cannot see much point in those who are being overly protective of the lad.

My memory might be failing me, but didn't Roeder go to the Amsterdam Tournament, where Martins (by all accounts) was impressive? Of course, correct me if I'm wrong...

Quick question to the considerable number of people who raved about how amazingly two footed Martins was.

 

Do you still believe this to be the case?

Was actually thinking of those "two footed" claims as I watched the game - um... NO! He's very left-footed.

I've said that I think he's down on confidence (or weighed down by expectation), and as his game gets on song then he will become more confident about using his right...

 

Erm... You mean when he played a ball somewhere where there was nobody whatsoever, no toon players, no defenders, no one running on, then jogged over to pick it up again because there was no-one there to challenge him?

 

I thought the lad was a waste of space today, Sibierski outshone him and he's 4 years older!

Quick, call Anal Oliver - the Sib is revealed to be only 25

Thought I'd sign on for the Martins appreciation society, having defended him more than once already...

I felt today that his only real problem is composure - as was said in the match thread he seems to fluctuate between snatching at chances or taking too long to settle himself. There's a kind of nervous desperation about Martins, but it's a better state of mind than another nameless "striker" on our books

Lentini was a gun player too - but now he's a trivia question

If memory serves Milan paid that fee the same season Roy Keane became the record British transfer for about a quarter of Lentini's fee...

Wow, I've ignored this thread for a while - glad to see some progress has been made on the debate!  tongue.gif

 

Ameobi under Roeder and without Shearer as a strike partner has been very impressive

I don't think this point has been made often enough - it isn't a coincidence that he has looked a different player without Shearer beside him!

SBR,Roeder,Shearer and Souness all rated Ameobi highly so he has to have something about him.

Now, this argument, on the other hand, isn't so great, because it could also be applied to Shambles  bluedead.gif

Oh, and alpal was talking about why we didn't sell Luque in the summer - was the rumour that he rejected a move (either because of wages or didn't fancy the club making the offer) one of those summer-gossip-bollock stories? I'm pretty sure a story like that was posted here...?

After what I was expecting this has to be the most underwhelming transfer for a long time. There's no way even Oliver can put a positive spin on this one.

I don't think you're giving the man enough credit - if there's one man who can make manure smell like perfume, it's our good friend Anal

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I'm an Aussie

I can't believe there were people advocating Mido but don't want Big Dukes? This is a big target man with excellent technique, whose game is tailor made for a quick striker and scores some cracking goals himself...

I know the criticisms - he's fat, prone to laziness, doesn't score enough... Trust me, I've seen him turn in some shocking shifts for Australia. But I said when we were looking at Angel earlier in the summer that Viduka would be a better option, and I stick with it. He's not going to take us into the top four, but as a "panic buy" we could do far worse (as long as we're not paying more than 3m)

Is he going to be in charge today when the mackems play West Brom?

Nope - BBC reports he's taking over after that game...

Former Manchester United skipper Roy Keane has agreed terms to become the new manager of Sunderland.

Keane is expected to sign a contract after the home Championship game against West Brom on Monday.

 

The 35-year-old was introduced to the Black Cats squad by chairman Niall Quinn on Sunday.

 

Keane faces a tough challenge with the club bottom of the Championship after four consecutive league defeats after their relegation last season.

 

The club were also knocked out of the Carling Cup after a 2-0 loss to lowly Bury.

 

It will be the former Nottingham Forest, Manchester United and Celtic midfielder's first steps into management, after injury ended his glittering playing career in June 2006.

 

Keane will replace his former Republic of Ireland team-mate Quinn, who has occupied the role while a permanent choice was sought.

 

A statement on the club's website said: "Roy Keane visited Sunderland today where he met with players and officials from the club.

 

"Keane and the club have agreed terms for him to be appointed as manager, and it is envisaged that he will sign a formal contract immediately after Sunderland's game against West Brom tomorrow."

 

Quinn and his Drumaville consortium bought out former chairman Bob Murray during the summer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sunderland/5290778.stm

 

If you want to get involved in this debate, feel free

 

God no - see, I know that I don't know enough to be involved in this debate, I just had one tiny question relating to one particular statement...

As you were, gents

 

Who says he interferes with his managers job ?

I hesitate to get involved in this discussion, but didn't Sir Bobby make claims to that effect in his autobiography?

So are people saying that Luque's best position is left wing? I'm sure I heard a number of folk on here say last season that Luque was a striker?

 

If Luque is a left wing than we need to get shot, we have Duff and Zog, that's enough for me thanks.

 

 

Not to mention Milner and O'Brien in a pinch...

 

STREWTH!

Don't tar us all with the same brush

 

Oh and not forgetting about your point of thinking I am alone in thinking it is STUPID to put the blame fully on Luque and make him the scapegoat, well I am sure I read a number of posters in this thread and the other one about he post match report suggesting similar things about Duff and the rest of the midfield...

 

I've got a feeling you're talking about me here, so I thought I'd reproduce a few pertinent points -

 

I've been a fence-sitter re Luque until this match - no more. As GeJon says, he's not a lone striker, but he seems to have no idea about getting into good positions, doesn't look like putting himself about, and his teammates clearly have absolutely no faith in him. If Freddy can get a decent price before the window closes (and get a half-decent replacement in) then it's for the best for all concerned...

 

This one won't be popular, but... does anyone else think Duff is a bit too hungry? I'm not saying he's not a class player, and it's seems to me he doesn't rate Luque, but at times he looked like he thought he had to do it all himself...?

 

 

What I saw was a team who simply didn't trust him enough to give him the ball - and with his poor positioning, poor effort off the ball, poor first touch and apparent disinterest, I can't really blame them...

 

I raised the question of whether Duff was too hungry in the post-match thread, but upon further reflection it's easily understandable... Imagine you yourself are playing in a free role in a Sunday League, and the guy playing up front is someone you know is going to let the ball roll past him, or bounce of his shins, you'd stop passing it to him, right? And try to do it all yourself? You can't keep passing it to him in the hope he'll get it right sooner or later...

 

As far as I could see Duff did seem a bit hungry at times, but he linked up with other players, just not Luque...

 

 

Now, both you and I are splitting hairs, trying to get inside the heads of players. You're of the opinion that our players were too selfish to pass to Luque, I'm of the opinion they (especially Duff) were happy to pass to anyone except Luque because they don't trust him - and the fact is both could be true and neither can be proved

 

Sorry for the very long post, but I am not going to be considered a supporter of your views SLK

Well I disagree with your opinion about Luque in this game having "poor positioning, poor effort off the ball and apparent disinterest"...I just think it was very obvious that most of the midfielders were trying to be the SUPER HERO and had no vision when on a number of occasions Luque was unmarked and ready to score if had recieved the ball...

 

If you have taped the game, you can go back and watch the part where N'Zogbia dribbled passed two defenders in their panelty area and Luque was in acres of space unmarked to his right but N'Zogbia still decided to go on and the end product was nothing...Luque would have scored if he had gotten the ball at that moment...There were so many times like this when Luque was in very good positoins but the selfish bastards were ignoring him...

That's not a very good example really - as you said he'd just beaten two (three?) players and was a mere ten yards from goal when he took the shot, as almost every player would...

Now, both you and I are splitting hairs, trying to get inside the heads of players. You're of the opinion that our players were too selfish to pass to Luque, I'm of the opinion they (especially Duff) were happy to pass to anyone except Luque because they don't trust him - and the fact is both could be true and neither can be proved

Plus there's the small fact we both got up at 4.30am to watch our team fail to score despite 30+ attempts at goal - something which doubtless put us in a grumpy and uncharitable mood

But if Roeder decided to play Luque that mean Duff needs to get through his head that he needs to do his job and that is to pass the ball to Luque...He wasn't doning that from the word go...

 

I think it has nothing to do with Duff thinking Luque's control is not good because honestly Luque didn't see the ball that much for Duff to come up with that conclusion...Duff was actually very very wasteful of some good chances and his crosses were CRAP...

We'll have to disagree on the bold bit... And I noticed that while you seized upon my "poor first touch" remark you ignored "poor positioning, poor effort off the ball and apparent disinterest"...?

When greedy selfcentred players like Duff and the rest start passing the ball to Luque and if he doesn't score then come and talk about Luque not being good enough...

 

Duff and the rest of the midfield do NOT understand what the word SERVICE means because any striker without being given the ball is NOT going to SCORE...Not even Alan Shearer would have scored with that kind of selfish play by the midfield players...

 

They were like kids everyone wanting to score himself without thinking for the good of the team...Errr especially Duff...Soooo angry at him...

What I saw was a team who simply didn't trust him enough to give him the ball - and with his poor positioning, poor effort off the ball, poor first touch and apparent disinterest, I can't really blame them...

I raised the question of whether Duff was too hungry in the post-match thread, but upon further reflection it's easily understandable... Imagine you yourself are playing in a free role in a Sunday League, and the guy playing up front is someone you know is going to let the ball roll past him, or bounce of his shins, you'd stop passing it to him, right? And try to do it all yourself? You can't keep passing it to him in the hope he'll get it right sooner or later...

As far as I could see Duff did seem a bit hungry at times, but he linked up with other players, just not Luque...

I thought it was funny people in the match thread saying "Oooh, he's cup tied now, he must be staying"

Bollocks to that - what club playing in Europe would want him on tonight's showing

DISCLAIMER: hyberbole...

Gee Knightrider, I'd hate for it to be Hitzfeld

My money is on Curbishley myself...

You sure can write, sir

Can we stop this Bellamy jizzfest too? Or is it being naughty to suggest that?

Personally, I think this Bellamy wank-a-thon is part of the "Hate Souness" mentality we all have. The lad played well for us, but there's no need to put him on a pedestal just because he "stood up to" Souness. Just because Souness was a cunt doesn't make Bellamy a saint!!!

It's 2006/07 - he's a Liverpool player and a loathsome toad who bitches, sooks and moans on a level no one else comes close to - why isn't he a hate figure for Christ's sake?!?

<b>Where will we finish?</b>

6th-8th

<b>Will Roeder still be our manager in January?</b>

Certainly, no fear

<b>Which of our younger/fringe players (if any) will make a name for himself this season and why?</b>

I'm hoping Huntington comes back from loan and steps up... I can't see Pattison or O' Brien getting enough chances to shine

<b>Will Dyer play more than 5 games for us this season?</b>

Yes, and hopefully he can contribute to the cause for a change too!

<b>Will Shola score more goals than he did last season?</b>

Please God yes, because if he doesn't we're screwed

<b>Will we get to see the real Albert Luque or will he continue to disappoint?</b>

I can't see him getting the chance to shine - most likely shipped out in January

<b>Who will be the star of our defence ('keeper included)?</b>

Given of course, Babayaro to win a few over with improved performances

<b>And midfield?</b>

Duff - quality

<b>And up front?</b>

Martins?

<b> How many new players will we sign before the close of this transfer window?</b>

One or two - Martins and maybe Bridge. I think Gravesen is a dead deal

<b>And how many will leave?</b>

Boumsong shipped out unlamented

<b>How many times will "Shearer-Shearer" be chanted this season?</b>

Too many times... Though once would be too often

<b>Who will flop for us this season?</b>

I've got this fear the Zog will have a case of the second season blues, and I can see Nobby fading badly

<b>Who will outshine all others?</b>

Duff and Given

<b>Will Owen make an appearance before the season is over?</b>

Same as last year, maybe a game or two at the end for morale purposes

<b>Will an attendance drop below the 50,000 mark for a league game for the first time since SJP was rebuilt?</b>

Hmmm... couldn't say for certain. I surely hope not

<b>Will we go the season without any off-field dramas/headlines of the name through mud variety?</b>

mackems.gif More chance of Shola winning the European Golden Boot and an England call up!

<b>Will we win something this year?</b>

Would be a foolish man that tipped us, but you never can tell in the cups... If we're lucky

<b>How far in all the cups, then?</b>

UEFA - 3rd round, League Cup - straight out, FA Cup 5th round

<b>Nicky Butt - will he win you over?</b>

I'll go with the "Roeder: clean slate" line (as I wasn't in cardiff )

<b>Will we miss Shearer this season?</b>

His goalscoring or his presence in the changeroom? Nay to the former, aye to the latter

<b>Are you excited about the new season?</b>

Of course - if you're not excited at the start of the season why bother? Just because we're not I'd like us to be is no reason to go into the new season all gloom and doom!

Not at all, alot of poor teams compared to us.

That's what it comes down to really - we're not in a good way, especially if we don't sign a striker, but there is some real crap below us... And as for thinking we are "too good to go down", well, even our present squad would have to be decimated by injuries AND in poor form for us to come third last in a league containing the likes of Reading, Sheffield United, Watford, Charlton, Fulham, Wigan, Villa, Citeh and Everton...

In my opinion, of course...

Champions: Chelsea

2nd 3rd 4th: Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs

Where will we finish: 6th

Relegation: Watford, Fulham, Reading

Top scorer: Shevchenko