fredbob

I honestly can't believe that people think £16m was too much to pay for a 26 year old Michael Owen.

 

£16m, £110k and a £8m(?) transfer clause were all too much for aplayer who had barely played for his previous team, again you reiterated to point we're trying to make in this entire thread, it was the name we were  primarily buying not the player.

 

Owen hadnt started that much but had a good goals to game ratio at Madrid.

Still didnt warrant the mark up he got in my opinion, fair point about the longer contract, but i still dont think that there should of been a 100% mark up on his initial sign fee, espcially with so few appearences.

My point also, is that you look at the other figures tied in with this transfer, such as the clause and the silly wages, and you see the desperation NOT determination to sign him, and that speaks volumes to me.

Infact the signing he could have been talking about could well have been Keegan as a player.

 

That's the last one I could come up with that fitted the criteria you all seem to be assuming he means. He only cost £100,000 like.

 

Duff, Owen, Luque, Boumsong, Rooney bid, Torres supposed bid, Casino plans, all things which arguably were signed to get season ticket sales going again, again there were questionalbe motives for most of those players, wouldnt go as far as saying they were all "statement signings" but maybe signings made with not he 1st teams best interests at heart....

 

Can't see many people rushing to renew their season tickets just because we bought Duff. When we bought Luque we'd already got Owen so they'd done enough to get the money in anyway if that was their only motive. Boumsong was a necessary (if over priced) signing who most were happy with at the time. Would you have turned your nose up at getting Torres and Rooney? Where the casino comes into it I've no idea.

How could you possibly know that? All im saying, and i think you kindof agree to an extent, is that maybe they werent signings made with the best interest of the first team at heart, especially the Souness debacle when it was clear to everyone that season ticket sales were at there lowest, maybe he needed to stir up interest by going on the spree.  Hell even Solano was resigned for the fans.

It seemed that way too me, if you think that those signings or (attempted signings) were made 100% for the benefit of the fisrt team and only for the benefit of the fisrt team then that is upto you, ill take the cynical route i stick with my belief that maybe, just maybe they werent just signed for the benefit of the first team, but for the benefit of the finances and season ticket sales.

To me the evidence during SBR final seasons suggest it, no money during summer, SBR wanting a CB (having sold one of our best ever), then when seaon ticket sales start to drop we find £25m from somewhere to bid on Torres and Rooney....theres my evidence and thats maybe what Mort is on about.

Maybe im wrong.

3 pages later & still no answer

 

I'll ask again, NE5, how much do you think we'll spend this summer?

 

Answer in £'s please

 

oh dear. 400m. I don;t know I'm not Chris Mort or Mike Ashley !!!

 

What a question  howay mate, keep it sensible 

Its not hard to give an estimate....you said it yourself spending money=ambition, therefore more money, more ambition- true??

So do you think we'll outspend our previous high of £50m do you think we'll go less or higher?  A rough estimate on the level of ambition  you think the board will show is all we're asking for...

I honestly can't believe that people think £16m was too much to pay for a 26 year old Michael Owen.

£16m, £110k and a £8m(?) transfer clause were all too much for aplayer who had barely played for his previous team, again you reiterated to point we're trying to make in this entire thread, it was the name we were  primarily buying not the player.

Infact the signing he could have been talking about could well have been Keegan as a player.

 

That's the last one I could come up with that fitted the criteria you all seem to be assuming he means. He only cost £100,000 like.

Duff, Owen, Luque, Boumsong, Rooney bid, Torres supposed bid, Casino plans, all things which arguably were signed to get season ticket sales going again, again there were questionalbe motives for most of those players, wouldnt go as far as saying they were all "statement signings" but maybe signings made with not he 1st teams best interests at heart....

So just to re iterate- you dont think we'll outspend our rivals and we'll be operating on a "sell to buy policy"?

 

Is that right?

 

Put your head on the line NE5...

 

 

 

its quite clear mate, the club simply can't rule out buying the top players at any time, ever, if they have genuine ambition and want to fulfill it.

 

 

So you dont think we'll outspend our rivals and we'll operate on a "sell to buy" policy?

Because if you don't think we'll do the above then what the hell are you arguing about?

If you think we'll back Keegan to the fullest and we'll look to sign the claibre of player he's after then really there is absolutely no argument to be had. Full Stop.

Sodo you think Keegan will get suffiecient bcking this summer and do you think he'll get the standard of player he'd after?

Simple yes or no answer.

So just to re iterate- you dont think we'll outspend our rivals and we'll be operating on a "sell to buy policy"?

Is that right?

Put your head on the line NE5...

Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season.

As was Bentley......

The trouble with too many Newcastle supporters is that they live in the past - those who were around when we won the Cup 3 times in the 50's always hark back to that ; those like me who were young when we won the Fairs Cup in 69 remember that(as well as the KK first era as manager), and many younger fans think SBRs time was great - the truth is that we have to STOP living in the past. Shepherd's era has gone and gone for ever - if you think he was a good Chairman, that is your perogative, just as it is the right of those who disagree to post their view, but NONE of this stuff is going to change the club.

Only the current Board, Manager and backroom staff can do that, so I find these arguments pointless - every few weeks this same topic re-emerges and goes on..and ON...amd ON.....

Neither side is going to agree with the other, so its completely pointless ; we have an unexpected chance(which no-one on this board envisaged a year ago)now to regain our self-respect in the Prem and to progress as a club, hopefully to where we all want to be - lets get behind the current set-up and FORGET ABOUT THE PAST ; its gone, won't come back and the indisputable proof of its actions is the fact that we almost got relegated. We didn't even win anything in the 'good' times...

 

This thread started off talking about Mort's comments re signings, i.e., the club WON'T just make them to appease fans. In my view, that is an eminently sensible policy - would Man U, Arsenal or Liverpool do that? I don't think so...half of Wenger's signings were probably unknown to the majority of Arsenal fans, and I wouldn't care if the same thing happened at NUFC - PROVIDED that the result was a successful side...

Its nice to speculate on who should be signed - all fans do it - but give the management and board a chance ; look to the future - Shepherd, SJH, Souness, SBR etc etc have all GONE and won't be coming back. Lets hope that one day , we can look back on the next few years as 'Good' times, and with justification this time, not just making numbers up in the CL or beating Man U 5-0 and then spending the next 11 years seeing them treat us mainly as cannon fodder..!!

 

I don't agree Morts comments are sensible. I think they smack of total naivety, If the club needs players for the present time, they need them, which we do, and the better the quality, so much the better. This is where I came in and all I said in fact.

 

 

 

 

 

Disagree - he is quite correct not to want signings just to appease supporters ; we used to do that even in Joe Harvey's time..

The signings have to be those that make us a BETTER SIDE - nothing more, nothing less ; if they turn out to be headline-making signings. all well and good, but Robert Lee was hardly that at the time he signed for us, yet became one of our most invaluable signings.

If you put this point to KK, I'm willing to bet he will agree, and that is the most important thing...I think we can all be fairly sure that the Manager will be the one to finally decide who he wants..

 

I'm pleased to see that you appear to think the trophy winning clubs aren't showing you how they appease their supporters ie by buying top quality footballers to their clubs. Just carry on ignoring it if you like.

 

He appears to be making an excuse for setting out a "sell to buy" type strategy in the long term with stringent limits on the amount the club is prepared to spend on players, ie run the club like Everton rather than Liverpool. I'm sorry if you and others don't agree, but thats what it seems to me, and I've seen it before and heard these sort of excuses, unlike most others.  Its not the way to run an ambitious football club, the only way to success is to buy the quality players when they are available and worry about balancing the books later. Why does he have to keep feeling he has to earn himself brownie points by digging at the old board, as UV has said ? Is it to curry favour with supporters - ie appease them ? Just get on with the job, and the good club that you have been left, and improve it if you can, is what he should be doing. I'd think more of him if he acknowledged that they have been left a club very much in a good position to get real success instead of the childish digs.

 

Keegan will do well with the money he gets, but will we get the full potential out of Keegan ?

 

 

 

So put your neck out on the line and give us a rough estimate on how much we'll spend? Do you think we will spend little, lots or average? Seeing as though youve seen it all before you should have a rough estimate...

 

personally i think we will spend about £40m and we will sell some fringe players and Zog, noone else.

 

I'm not even looking at this summer. I'm not interested in the club throwing out sweeteners to fans in the first summer under KK [to appease them ?] I'm far more interested in the club showing me they intend to get into the top trophy winning clubs and showing me that they understand how its done.

 

By this, I mean buying the best players from poxy little clubs like Blackburn. We need an initial injection to move upwards that needs to be spent well, but believe it or not the mackems are also talking of spending 40m quid.

 

Do you think we ought to be acting bigger than the mackems ? Or do you think the mackems should be big hitters like us ?

 

 

 

So how much?

 

I've just said, I'm not looking for an amount of money, but an awareness of what it takes and sadly I think what he has said is complete rubbish.

 

 

You're a walking paradox man, you say it yourself thatthe onyl thing a board can do is chose the right manager and back him, well they've done one thing so far and now when it comes down to doing the next thing, its classifed as "sweeteners for the fans"

Well do you think we'll spend lots?

The trouble with too many Newcastle supporters is that they live in the past - those who were around when we won the Cup 3 times in the 50's always hark back to that ; those like me who were young when we won the Fairs Cup in 69 remember that(as well as the KK first era as manager), and many younger fans think SBRs time was great - the truth is that we have to STOP living in the past. Shepherd's era has gone and gone for ever - if you think he was a good Chairman, that is your perogative, just as it is the right of those who disagree to post their view, but NONE of this stuff is going to change the club.

Only the current Board, Manager and backroom staff can do that, so I find these arguments pointless - every few weeks this same topic re-emerges and goes on..and ON...amd ON.....

Neither side is going to agree with the other, so its completely pointless ; we have an unexpected chance(which no-one on this board envisaged a year ago)now to regain our self-respect in the Prem and to progress as a club, hopefully to where we all want to be - lets get behind the current set-up and FORGET ABOUT THE PAST ; its gone, won't come back and the indisputable proof of its actions is the fact that we almost got relegated. We didn't even win anything in the 'good' times...

 

This thread started off talking about Mort's comments re signings, i.e., the club WON'T just make them to appease fans. In my view, that is an eminently sensible policy - would Man U, Arsenal or Liverpool do that? I don't think so...half of Wenger's signings were probably unknown to the majority of Arsenal fans, and I wouldn't care if the same thing happened at NUFC - PROVIDED that the result was a successful side...

Its nice to speculate on who should be signed - all fans do it - but give the management and board a chance ; look to the future - Shepherd, SJH, Souness, SBR etc etc have all GONE and won't be coming back. Lets hope that one day , we can look back on the next few years as 'Good' times, and with justification this time, not just making numbers up in the CL or beating Man U 5-0 and then spending the next 11 years seeing them treat us mainly as cannon fodder..!!

 

I don't agree Morts comments are sensible. I think they smack of total naivety, If the club needs players for the present time, they need them, which we do, and the better the quality, so much the better. This is where I came in and all I said in fact.

 

 

 

 

 

Disagree - he is quite correct not to want signings just to appease supporters ; we used to do that even in Joe Harvey's time..

The signings have to be those that make us a BETTER SIDE - nothing more, nothing less ; if they turn out to be headline-making signings. all well and good, but Robert Lee was hardly that at the time he signed for us, yet became one of our most invaluable signings.

If you put this point to KK, I'm willing to bet he will agree, and that is the most important thing...I think we can all be fairly sure that the Manager will be the one to finally decide who he wants..

 

I'm pleased to see that you appear to think the trophy winning clubs aren't showing you how they appease their supporters ie by buying top quality footballers to their clubs. Just carry on ignoring it if you like.

 

He appears to be making an excuse for setting out a "sell to buy" type strategy in the long term with stringent limits on the amount the club is prepared to spend on players, ie run the club like Everton rather than Liverpool. I'm sorry if you and others don't agree, but thats what it seems to me, and I've seen it before and heard these sort of excuses, unlike most others.  Its not the way to run an ambitious football club, the only way to success is to buy the quality players when they are available and worry about balancing the books later. Why does he have to keep feeling he has to earn himself brownie points by digging at the old board, as UV has said ? Is it to curry favour with supporters - ie appease them ? Just get on with the job, and the good club that you have been left, and improve it if you can, is what he should be doing. I'd think more of him if he acknowledged that they have been left a club very much in a good position to get real success instead of the childish digs.

 

Keegan will do well with the money he gets, but will we get the full potential out of Keegan ?

 

 

So put your neck out on the line and give us a rough estimate on how much we'll spend? Do you think we will spend little, lots or average? Seeing as though youve seen it all before you should have a rough estimate...

personally i think we will spend about £40m and we will sell some fringe players and Zog, noone else.

 

Not that i want to sound like a Taylor basher but i didnt think he had much to do, Faye took care of Jones today and they were hardly putting too much pressure on us.

 

Will save my proper judgement for when we are under the cosh a little and actually have to defend.

 

I think you're giving too much of the credit to Faye, Taylor cut a lot of balls out which were heading in the direction of Jones.

Like i say, not looking to be a Taylor basher,  i just didnt see anything from either of a centre halves that looked anyhing like a great challenge, although handling Jones was a bit of one for Faye. (There is no way Keegan would of let Taylor take care of Jones).

Today just wasnt a game to judge the quality of our centre halves, would i be wrong in saying people think we are conceeding less because the defence is playing better, becauseid disagree with that and say we are conceeding less because we are having to defend less....

Be a traversty if he doesnt get nufc player of the season, which unfortunately i can see going to Owen.

Solano II

One slip us where he pulled out of a header thinking Harper would get it only for Jones to bring it under control, Faye was with him though and forced him away from goal.

 

You should expect a quite day when two defenders are up against one striker who got little support from his midfield.

 

Maybe Harper gave him a shout. I've seen Taylor and us wilt under less pressure man. He played well, credit where credit is due.

 

They played well when called upon but they were hardly tested, it was a quite day at the office for the pair of them.

 

Praise  indeed   almost

Not that i want to sound like a Taylor basher but i didnt think he had much to do, Faye took care of Jones today and they were hardly putting too much pressure on us.

Will save my proper judgement for when we are under the cosh a little and actually have to defend.

Wish he was 10 years younger.

Thought Faye would get more mentions, he's been pretty solid for us, but Beye without a shadow of a doubt, he's been consistently good, perfect RB.

Owen - no chance, not his fault but not the player of the season

Butt - Again, no, been ok, but this is a season, he's in a position which should do well in any formation or tactical set up.

Beye and Faye easily the outstanding characters been decent all season and have been leaders.

Why the hype about this bloke being a top manager.

He's spent £45M and supposedly his best player is a reserve he's got on loan !

Peter Reid and Mick McCarthy put out better teams for a fraction of what he's spent. In fact Malcolm Crosby and Bobby Saxton had teams with more fight in them.

Woeful.

To be fair, his buys have been fucking atrocious, not that he could of got any better, but his policy seems to reek of Irishmen or ex Man U who arent good neough for Man U.

Really dropped aball with the £30-40m he's spent, but he's seemed to put a side together who are playing with passion and discpline and thats a difficult thing to maintian over the course of a losing season.

If he bought the quality, i dont think they'd be in the position they are in now.

Am i missing something? Didnt he post that this morning before the match?

Would rather go for Lennon to be honest, no point having a good crosser of the ball if we havent got anyone dominant in the air, which we havent, Lennon would get to the byline more and stretch the opposition defence more making more space for our forwards.

 

Thats how i see it anyway.

 

Owen is good in the air if not dominant. so are Viduka and Martins tbh and I can see us replacing Smith in the summer with more of a target man.

But they are all players who play best with the ball at there feet, none of them are gonna "out head" the likes of Terry, Ferdinand or Vidic, but they might out manouever them in the box with the ball coming to there feet....

play to your strengths man, play to your strengths.

Would rather go for Lennon to be honest, no point having a good crosser of the ball if we havent got anyone dominant in the air, which we havent, Lennon would get to the byline more and stretch the opposition defence more making more space for our forwards.

Thats how i see it anyway.

For a 21 year old i think he could turn out to be Allarayces best buy. Excellent defensively, needs more compusre and self belif once he crosees the halfway line.

Can easily improve in a Keegan team and i think he will, could and should turn out to be one of the best LB in the league.

Hold on, you mention that we should use the blueprint that Man U use, by spending big on big name players, but you mentined 6 players who arguably classified as the worlds best young talent.

 

They are actually classified as some of the worlds best players.

 

I tend to think of chaps like Macaulay Chrisantus, Josmer Altidore, Ransford Osei etc who are the Worlds best Young talent.

 

Hold on, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson and rooney were some of the worlds best players when they were signed??

News to me.

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players  have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle.  We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21  capatian.  Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

 

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

 

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

 

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

 

That is the sum total of how far the old board "failed", there position was completely unteneable.

 

 

 

you've no idea how they found the club have you, in spite of me telling you ?

 

Give it a rest ffs

 

 

That is the respones of a man who has no answer.

To reiterate, yes im acutely aware of the situation we were in pre92, but by that argument as long as we are in a better position to where they found us, then that is success in your book.

The last lot had their chance and fluffed it.

 

I dont think they fluffed it, they just could not maintain what they had achieved.

 

They seem to have got all their key people in place and are apparently thinking long-term, which has to be welcome news to anyone who cares for the future of the club.

 

Lets be fair to previous lot they did build a training ground where the Acadmeny/Pre-Acadmeny players have there own facility to train at. The club also ticked every box to get Academy status. They have struggled to have a long term Acadmeny Director but Alan Irvine got the number 2 job at Everton, Roeder got the Newcastle job, Brian Eastick after leaving club is now in charge of England U19's & John Carver got dumped. Joe Joyce the current AD has doubled the amount of coaches that coach the pre-Acadmeny kids, there are now 2 coaches to every age group. We also signed players that went on to win PFA Young Player Of The Year, while at the club which we won two years on the trot. We signed 2003-2004 winner. We signed James Milner who has won more U21 caps than anyone else. The current England U21 captain plays for Newcastle. We singed Hugo Viana who was one of the most in demand young player in Europe at the time. We singed the Italian U21 capatian. Bung in players that were/are exciting youngster like Bernard & CNZ & I would say if youth was what your were after the previous lot did pretty well.

 

 

no point being positive about an ownership that ran the club who achieved all of that and the best league positions in 50 years and left the club light years superior to where they found it, nobody will believe you

 

what a joke

 

mackems.gif mackems.gif

The manner of the decline would probably not be so much of an issue had it occured in more reasonable circumstances, but with the supposed goings on during the SBR period (which can be only attributed to Shepherd) and the subsequent sacking and replacment pushed things too far.

The thing is, is that you openely acknowledge how much of a mess we are, and you attribute that all to the new board who have been here for less than ayear, people who correctly or incorrectly criticize the old board have the benefit of hindsight from 15 years of stewardship to formulate there opinion and you cant handle that, i have no idea why-well i do but thats a completely different matter

How far as a club have we fallen since we reached those great heigths of CL qual? How much money would it take to get us back there? The thing you cant acknowledge and i dont know why, is that the old boad was ENTIRELY responsible for how far we have fallen. Any amount of cash you estimate to get us back there, be it £100m, or £200m (there are threads which you do support these estimates), that is your estimate of how much the last board would of needed to get us back as well, and that is without the debt cleared. #

£100-200m isnt a small amount of cash, and if you believe that that is the correct estimate then you have to admit that that is how far the old board took us, under no circumstances is that acceptable, why should it be? Becasue "at least they showed there ambition" Well, if the club was managed properly in the first place we shouldnt need that £100-200m to catch up in the first place.

Are you telling me that Wengers success in the transfer market is down to Bruce Rioch, his predecessor? ;D

 

They have competed against Man Utd far better than we have over the last 5 years and have done bloody well this year when you think of the investment Man Utd made last summer in comparison.

 

BTW, on the big hitter thing. The ground move has ensured that they can compete better than they've ever been able to before, due to greater turnover etc. Now they are a big hitter imo, before they were punching above their weight and that was mainly thanks to Wenger and his ability to spot a player, bed him into the first team and flog on for a profit. I dare say, they wouldn't have to sell now - before they probably did.

 

I did comment about setting the club up for sustainable success though.

 

Oh my you cant even spot a tongue in cheek remark.

 

It is not Man Utd fault if the Arsenal board dont trust Wegner to splash out big on a player or Wegner has doubts about signing big after the limted success of big buys like Jeffers, Reyes & Wiltord.

 

Arsene Wegner has not made Arsenal a big club or made them punch above there weight as they have always been a big club, there history tells you this.

 

As Man Utd/Sir Alex are the most successful club in the Premier League history I guess what they do is the best way towards sustainable success.

 

indeed. Their current attacking strength has cost them around 80m quid ie Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Saha not to mention Carrick, Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson to back them up. Must be over 100m and just to show even the best managers drop a huge clanger, Veron.

 

Still, I'm sure that Chris Mort has a better way. Maybe he thinks that manu aren't buying these players to appease their fans and keep them happy and rolling through the gates ?

 

Also add the best team we have seen at Newcastle in living memory, which almost won the title, and almost the entire team was bought some of them big buys, the biggest of the time. And topped off with the worlds most expensive player, which nobody turned their nose up at and would undoubtedly gone on to do the trick had it not been for the manager leaving the club.

 

You can't get much more proof than this, its just amazing the people in this thread who have defended the prudent method.

 

Lets put it this way, it ONLY works if you have a one off able to make it work like Wenger.

 

 

Hold on, you mention that we should use the blueprint that Man U use, by spending big on big name players, but you mentined 6 players who arguably classified as the worlds best young talent.

How is that argument applicable to the like of Henry,Deco Kluivert Duff, et al. Players you think we should be signing because the top 4 do as well. Even though they arent.

The big four, whether you like to admit it or not are buying up the biggest young talents in the world just like Wenger is, but they are buying them at more high profile stages.

Im happy that you agree that we should be looking at youth more intensely!

Do you think we'll spend much this summer? How much at a guess?