bealios

This might have been said before by one of the accountants on here, but in business terms isn't "capital outlay" assessed over the life of an asset i.e including the purchase and the sale. So when an asset involves "no capital outlay", doesn't it mean that all of the money spent on it is recovered - so over the next 5 years we can buy lots of young players, as long as overall we expect to be able to sell them for more than we bought them for?

Sounds like a plan to me.

I think we need a lot more than £15m - £20m. The problem is that our defence looks fairly sound, and we don't need a new keeper urgently, as we have decent back up as well. So our main requirements are in midfield and Premier League class striker. That tends to be more expensive than any other part of the team, but it could be the difference between staying up and going down. Bent at Sunderland being the classic example.

Robbie Keane would be my shout for that sort of player.

A lot of people on this forum have commented that it is too soon to judge whether things have improved at board level, and the test will be this summer when we find out what funds are made available to strengthen the team.

Assuming we go up and dont have any big player sales, what do you thing would be an acceptable transfer budget for Ashley to make available to achieve next seasons goals (which surely must be at best to aim for a mid table finish and move on from there)?

I reckon £15m - £20m would give us a good chance of finishing above 7 or 8 of the lesser teams in the Premier League.

sigh....madras, didn't you moan once or twice before because of members starting RIP threads whenever a footballer dies??

yes......................and no.

 

 

an obituary is ok, especially when it's a player we are aware of. its not good when people throw in a 'RIP' to show they care when really they don't know squat about the person. putting that 'RIP' in is as tacky as those who had their 6 yr olds sign Robsons condolence book.

 

I didn't know Jackie Milburn, or see him play, but I read enough about Newcastle United's history to know that he was a legend, on and off the pitch. I hope to god that my kids end up supporting NUFC, and if we never hit the heights we've hit in recent years I'll make sure I tell them about the time when we used to be good, and the world's greatest players actually used to play for us, and if they sign books of condolence for Shearer, Beardsley or anyone else then I don't think its tacky, more a case of giving them a proper football education.

i took my kids to see the robson memorial tribute. i signed the book. they wanted to, i wouldnt let them as, to me, it wouldn't have been honest,

 

But if you let them, and part of doing that involved you taking them home and spending the rest of the night telling them what he had achieved, and threw a few DVD's in to boot, then it might have been worth it.

 

Not that I'm telling you how to bring up your kids or anything 

they know about him but at aged 6 and 10 can they honestly say "thanks" or "RIP".....no

 

Maybe not, but in my experience kids choose the team they follow for life  from the ages of 6 - 10, and if letting them get involved with something the grown ups are doing that they might not completely understand but are interested in, and that means they end up supporting NUFC and not one of the Sky 4 then I would drop my principled stand!

 

 

how many people do you think went along, some with kids, some without, to sign that book and give the most lovely platitudes even though it really mattered little to them ?

Dont know mate, sadly probably quite a few. There did seemed to be a slight element of Princess Diana syndrome, although I wasnt in the north east at the time so cant really say.

Point I was getting that though was more that a genuine SBR fan who knew his career and what he had done, might not necessarly be being tacky by getting a young kid to sign a book of condolense or something similar

sigh....madras, didn't you moan once or twice before because of members starting RIP threads whenever a footballer dies??

yes......................and no.

 

 

an obituary is ok, especially when it's a player we are aware of. its not good when people throw in a 'RIP' to show they care when really they don't know squat about the person. putting that 'RIP' in is as tacky as those who had their 6 yr olds sign Robsons condolence book.

 

I didn't know Jackie Milburn, or see him play, but I read enough about Newcastle United's history to know that he was a legend, on and off the pitch. I hope to god that my kids end up supporting NUFC, and if we never hit the heights we've hit in recent years I'll make sure I tell them about the time when we used to be good, and the world's greatest players actually used to play for us, and if they sign books of condolence for Shearer, Beardsley or anyone else then I don't think its tacky, more a case of giving them a proper football education.

i took my kids to see the robson memorial tribute. i signed the book. they wanted to, i wouldnt let them as, to me, it wouldn't have been honest,

 

But if you let them, and part of doing that involved you taking them home and spending the rest of the night telling them what he had achieved, and threw a few DVD's in to boot, then it might have been worth it.

 

Not that I'm telling you how to bring up your kids or anything 

they know about him but at aged 6 and 10 can they honestly say "thanks" or "RIP".....no

Maybe not, but in my experience kids choose the team they follow for life  from the ages of 6 - 10, and if letting them get involved with something the grown ups are doing that they might not completely understand but are interested in, and that means they end up supporting NUFC and not one of the Sky 4 then I would drop my principled stand!

sigh....madras, didn't you moan once or twice before because of members starting RIP threads whenever a footballer dies??

yes......................and no.

 

 

an obituary is ok, especially when it's a player we are aware of. its not good when people throw in a 'RIP' to show they care when really they don't know squat about the person. putting that 'RIP' in is as tacky as those who had their 6 yr olds sign Robsons condolence book.

 

I didn't know Jackie Milburn, or see him play, but I read enough about Newcastle United's history to know that he was a legend, on and off the pitch. I hope to god that my kids end up supporting NUFC, and if we never hit the heights we've hit in recent years I'll make sure I tell them about the time when we used to be good, and the world's greatest players actually used to play for us, and if they sign books of condolence for Shearer, Beardsley or anyone else then I don't think its tacky, more a case of giving them a proper football education.

i took my kids to see the robson memorial tribute. i signed the book. they wanted to, i wouldnt let them as, to me, it wouldn't have been honest,

But if you let them, and part of doing that involved you taking them home and spending the rest of the night telling them what he had achieved, and threw a few DVD's in to boot, then it might have been worth it.

Not that I'm telling you how to bring up your kids or anything 

sigh....madras, didn't you moan once or twice before because of members starting RIP threads whenever a footballer dies??

yes......................and no.

 

 

an obituary is ok, especially when it's a player we are aware of. its not good when people throw in a 'RIP' to show they care when really they don't know squat about the person. putting that 'RIP' in is as tacky as those who had their 6 yr olds sign Robsons condolence book.

I didn't know Jackie Milburn, or see him play, but I read enough about Newcastle United's history to know that he was a legend, on and off the pitch. I hope to god that my kids end up supporting NUFC, and if we never hit the heights we've hit in recent years I'll make sure I tell them about the time when we used to be good, and the world's greatest players actually used to play for us, and if they sign books of condolence for Shearer, Beardsley or anyone else then I don't think its tacky, more a case of giving them a proper football education.

Our Relegation:

 

Because of -- Shepherd

Aided by -- Mike Ashley

 

Our Promotion:

 

Because of -- Chris Hughton

Aided by -- Mike Ashley

 

Regular posters will know I think a lot of good as come from the MA Administration, and although I realise he's made mistakes you just need to see the fact that he's invested over £250m in the club, that includes buying it and then vastly reducing some of the debt.

 

I'm glad we're working towards being self sufficient.  It worries me that people are still convinced he's being "greedy" or making profit, because anyone with an ounce of sense can see that you'd do nothing but lose money if you maintain our wage bill alone in the Championship, otherwise the other 23 teams would be doing it too!

 

I'm no fan of Shepherd, honestly.  But he can't be blaimed for our relegation as Ashley had plenty of chances to turn things around.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that because of Shepherd (and a little bad luck if truth be told) we were transformed to a lower md table side who were only a couple of poor football decisions at board level away from being relegated. Enter stage right Mike Ashley.

If Ashley had bought us in 2003/2004 I doubt he would have had us relegated in 2 seasons.

Here is my view on things, for all you Ashley Haters.

 

2007...........Bought a club in financial meltdown, struggling on the park with little or no valuable players and a new manager not of his choice. Failed to conduct due diligence therefore incurring a shitload of hidden costs. Backed the manager in the transfer market.

 

2008........ Failure on the park evident, manager had to go, made mistake of appointing the fans choice but managed safety due to a decent end of season run. Still in financial meltdown and allegedly paid off 110 million pounds of debt from own pocket. Appointed a european style management structure with little chance of success due to the personalities involved.

 

2009........Manager walks out due to no available money, clashes over transfer policy of Wise etc, playwers underperforming, appoints coach as stand in manager, appoints probable 40th choice manager, Kinnear, illness, injuries, players getting stroppy, more under performance, another stand in manager, yet another stand in manager, club up for saler, no buyers...relegated by ONE point.

 

2010..........club up for sale again, reduced price, no takers, temporary manager, disillusioned players sold, noone purchased, severely reduced revenue, club still severely in debt, economic crisis reduced owners assets by half, no longer a billionaire, club appoints coach full time manager, players respond, owner takes backward seat, reduces debt further by trimming staff, resources etc, club still winning, top of the league, player strength low, need recruits, spends money in January, club still top, ploughs more of personal money to pay salaries, remains inj background, club off the market, advises days of over spending over, plans on young players, introduces new scouting strategy, more sponsorship, new sponsorship, CLUB STILL TOP, has a plan over a number of years to improve aon and off the park.

 

YES, we have had three years at least of total ineptitude by many more people other than Ashley. I doubt you can blame him for the attitude of so called players, injuries to so called superstars, inability of so called managers and the complete and utter inability to achierve results. One  thing is for sure, we are now better off financially than when we were under the last days of FS. There is a financial plan in place and if this means we need to live within our means, then so be it. Othyers in ffuture years will fall by the wayside due to over spending, like Portsmouth and possibly even Hull, Burnley etc. Hopefully, we will not and under Ashlery, I believe he has learned a lot of lessons both on and off the park and in years to come, will lead the club to better times as long as he is given a chance to do so.

 

The past is history. Get over it and look to the future. If you dont l;ike it, feck off and support mackemland.

There we go again, saying the debt has been paid off.

If i do a transfer balance from one credit card to another I suppose I could tell the wife that Ive paid the credit card off

It doesnt mean that I am now debt free.

How can we be better off financially if we now owe more and are earning less?

Is it just because theyve said we have a financial plan in place? a plan that we dont really know about and wont untill next season.

and yes the past is history, but we judge people on there past actions and Ashley's past actions havent exactly been deserving of our trust has it?.

as for your last sentence.....twat

 

 

 

OK, you're right, the debt at the moment still exists. However, the difference with your credit card example is that no interest is being paid, so in financial terms the monthly club outgoings are the same as if the £110m debt did not exist. The problems evident at Man Utd and Liverpool at the moment are not the sheer size of the debt as such, its the fact that such large debt needs servicing with interest payments, and that for both clubs, a couple of years outside the CL places and they would be absolutely fucked as they couldn't afford the interest. NUFC do not have that to worry about.

If the club was sold, it would have been effectively sold debt free (save for Barclays as I've said). I'm certainly not going to put on an internet message board how I know that, and if you don't want to believe me I'm not too bothered, but do you really think that this summer Ashley was trying to sell NUFC for £200M + and he actually had some interested parties (including Shepherd at one stage)?

Keeping on topic, the original question is a bit daft. Of course the club is heading in the right direction this season, as we are top of the league. Is the club heading in the right direction, assessed over Ashley's entire reign? Of course not, we're a league lower. How long will it take NUFC to get back to the point we were at before he took over? We'll find out next season. My own view is that squad wise we were a lower middle table club, and had really been that way since Robson left, bar an overperforming run in under Roeder and some fortunate results elsewhere.

The club should be looking at Everton as a blueprint. Adding sensibly priced players to the squad over the years and retaining a core of key players who will improve over time. Whilst they have made some big buys, their outlay is generally modest for persistently decent PL finishes.

To use the Everton blueprint you need a highly skilled and talented manager. I genuinely rate Moyses alongside Wenger in terms of what he has done at Everton. As much as I like him, Hughton isn't of that standard, and I'm not sure we could convince anyone of that standard to come (at the moment).

Genuine question

A lot seem to think that Ashley is/was willing to write off the debt to sell, how do we know that?

as anyone who was interested had to sign non disclossure agreements.

I would have thought that we would have been snapped up debt free for 80mil, even running at a loss.

It seems to me that he wanted 80mil plus the debts to him still had to be paid and thats why we had no buyers.

If thats the case (but its only my take on it) then we are a lot worse off.

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

 

The price for the club was £100m in the summer, and this would have been for a debt free club, apart from the Barclays overdraft facility. THere would have been no money owed to Ashley. The price dropped to £80m at the last minute, but nobody had the cash.

 

I thought everyone had accepted this? THe idea that Ashley was trying to sell the club for £100m and after the sale the new owner would still owe Ashley £100m is nonsense.

 

And your source for this is?

The horses mouth.

Genuine question

A lot seem to think that Ashley is/was willing to write off the debt to sell, how do we know that?

as anyone who was interested had to sign non disclossure agreements.

I would have thought that we would have been snapped up debt free for 80mil, even running at a loss.

It seems to me that he wanted 80mil plus the debts to him still had to be paid and thats why we had no buyers.

If thats the case (but its only my take on it) then we are a lot worse off.

Only time will tell I suppose.

The price for the club was £100m in the summer, and this would have been for a debt free club, apart from the Barclays overdraft facility. THere would have been no money owed to Ashley. The price dropped to £80m at the last minute, but nobody had the cash.

I thought everyone had accepted this? THe idea that Ashley was trying to sell the club for £100m and after the sale the new owner would still owe Ashley £100m is nonsense.

the record holders going up are clubs like the Rabble and Reading - performance in the CL is no guide at all to the next year in the PL.............

Agree with this, although I think the teams who grind out the results on the way to being promoted tend to do better than the teams who play more attractive football on the way up like West Brom, maybe because surviving in the Premier League in the first season up involves defending well and grinding out results. Newly promoted teams are not going to be able to "out-football" a lot of premier league teams in the first season.

Apart from West Brom, are there any teams that believe that they can beat us to the League Title?

 

No.

 

Although not mathematically promoted, our lead is insurmountable.

 

We are going up, but as Champions or Runners Up?

That doesn't make any sense at all. I don't want to hear about promotion plans until we are mathematically sure.

Baba - if we beat Forest will you accept we're up? Forget about the maths. Mathematically we can win the Premier League next year, but I bet we won't.

Looking at last seasons Championship table, Wolves won on 90 points. That'd be 3 wins, 1 draw and 4 losses for the rest of the season.

 

It's more than likely that both NUFC and West Brom reach 90+ points. Nottingham Forest will be knocking on the 90 pt door too. Brum came 2nd with 83 points.

 

As dominating as I feel we've been this year, if we had been involved last year, I reckon we would have been even more stand-out.

I think going back to 92/93 the average points to take you up (in second place) is 86 points. I don't think that it is going to be too different this year (i.e. 3rd place gets 85 or less).

The "lets not celebrate" stuff is bollocks. Before the West Brom game at the start of the season I would have not been surprised if someone had looked into their crystal ball and told me that at the end of the season we would have dropped another league like Leeds, and be stuck down there for years. Many people, both fans and commentators were of the same view. It was seen as just as likely as bouncing straight back, moreso after Leyton Orient.

We're now pretty much guaranteed promotion, and have a shot at going up as champions. We also don't have that bad a squad for next year, certainly something to work on.

Not sure about the pitch invasion at home though, definitely think it will happen away.

The difference was that at the end of last season the Championship was seen as Armageddon, unthinkable, horrific, something that would make us sink without trace. Part of the fear of relegation was fear of the unknown.

The reality is that it has been an enjoyable season, get to visit some "proper" football grounds, away from the overhyped overpaid Premier League. Maybe next year the fact that it isn't the end of the world will stop the fear seeping from the terraces and getting to the players. Maybe not. Maybe we will be calling for Hughton's head at the end of the transfer window because we've only taken 10 points from 8 games or something (which is survival form incidentally).

Second half today affirms that Jonas, Enrique, Carroll, Guthrie, Colo have improved as players, and are definitely top 6 - 10 players next year. With Barton and Taylor that's a fairly decent spine to work around.

 

Careful.

I'm basing it more on the last few games rather than today. But I thought over the whole 90 minutes today this wasn't the best performance, but they turned it round in the end. We're going to need a lot of players next year who don't give up when we're two goals down, because, lets face it, its going to happen a lot.

To be honest I thought it was another gimmick, but I was dragged to watch ALice in Wonderland 3D last week and they showed a clip of Sky Sports in 3D. Have to admit, it was very impressive. Wouldn't make me go out and buy a new TV, but next time I need to, I will probably make sure it can do 3D.

In real terms we can't be caught by anyone below Leicester.

Second half today affirms that Jonas, Enrique, Carroll, Guthrie, Colo have improved as players, and are definitely top 6 - 10 players next year. With Barton and Taylor that's a fairly decent spine to work around.

GET THE FUCK IN!!!!!!

I'm afraid I might have cursed us this week. I only need Newcastle to win today for my 6 game accummulator to come in.

I never win.

What exactly is next for them by the way? If they can't buy the club, there's surely no way they can try and interact with Ashley/Llambias etc given how they've spent almost their whole time trying to oust them and criticising them. As a supporters group who deal with away travel, arrange talk-ins, etc. I think they could have something more useful and will gain a lot more support.

They still have a decent size membership, so they do what  they should have been doing all along. Aim to get bigger, be properly representative, and focus on things which benefit fans such as the absurd decision to move the Plymouth game etc...

I don't think at all that it was inevitable that if we had stayed with Halls and Shepherds we would have went into administration. However, what is likely is that we would endured at least 3 years of Allardyce, as the pot dwindled, and the risk that the £70m banking facility that we had with Northern Rock was about to fall payable, and nobody was around to refinance it.

I don't think this would have led to administration, as if we had kept Allardyce we would be about as good as Blackburn are now, so would have kept the Premier League cash. But around about the start of the 2010/2011 season we would have been in a dire financial position, one relegation away from doing a Portsmouth, with roughly the same quality squad that we have now (with perhaps less younger players and more seasoned pros playing in the Allardyce way).

Mystic Meg eat your heart out.