TheDonis

Hayden was limping before he went off, he probably had to go off. Fair enough - the right call then. Rafa should have been allowed to get McCarthy in January. A good player. Light years better than Colback. You'd be home and hosed by now.

Rafa gets subs more right than wrong, and sometimes they work fantastically well. But they didn't tonight. Was he asked about taking Hayden off after the match?

Don't know what it is about Rafa. His teams score lots of late goals but also concede them. Every time I've watched you on TV this season there seems to have been late ones. I watched that and thought you played well tonight. Leeds offered nothing but defended well. You really should have scored more than one, though. Wrong decision to put Colback on in my view. It broke up your tempo. Maybe Hayden was tired? But also baffled where the ref got five minutes added from.

Check the video which shows Gayle running in. Nowhere near the player and the ref is not looking at him so can't have seen the foul

If it was a foul it can only have been Gayle and one of the Twitter videos shows him no one near the fella who complains.

What a palaver. I've seen one video where the Burton player next to NUFC player who's encroaching (Gayle) turns to the ref and protests immediately. The ref is watching the pen though. I can only think: a - he thinks Gayle fouled the Burton plater as he ran past (he didn't) and even then it has to happen after the whistle goes, which not sure it did. b - he doesn't know the rules about it being retaken (unlikely) c - He thinks Gayle in some was obstructing/distracting the keeper by running in like that (absurd) Oddest decision I've ever seen tbh

I'll see if I can dig it out, but somewhere there's a great read about how Rafa approaches transfers. He tries to watch highlights of every single major league match in Europe. He rings people around Europe constantly to talk about players. Then he'll hand the person responsible a list of his targets, with several alternatives and options in case a deal can't be done. He does a separate list for younger players who won't be ready for the first team yet, or academy. He'll also alert people when he gets the nod someone is available so they can get in early and he expects the preparatory work to be done well in advance. But he'll also fully understand when a player is overvalued and doesn't expect a deal at any cost. He's generally good for business - he improves players and they can be sold on for better money, even squad players - which should please your owner.

Guessing different people have different viewpoints on the expectations of manager with their resources etc. For example, I've met 2 Liverpool fans today who don't rate him that highly despite what happened in Istanbul. I work there a lot and many would swap him for Klopp tomorrow if they could, he is more than just their KK to us like! They reason that under their current owners and how they spend today he would win them the league. That's some utter s*** there. Klopp has a £20m profit on transfers and Rodgers hardly spent massive amounts considering the money they recouped. I wonder how their careers will compare with Rafa's at the end of the day? Klopp will win things and be up there. The question is whether his teams have the defensive solidity to win trophies frequently. It's still the big unanswered question for us. As for Brodgie, no way. Good coach and I have a soft spot for him despite the almost limitless self regard. But his teams truly cannot defend. That season we nearly won the title was amazing but it was built on sand (and Suarez), not a recipe for sustained success.

Rafa will know exactly what you'll need next year. The question is: will he get it?

A well-articulated opinion, but it reeks of the messiah complex which so many outsiders accuse us of. I know the guy who put together Fulham's scouting report on us and he said after the game how their staff were in disbelief that they hadn't had to deviate from their Plan A because Rafa simply refused to deviate from his. I am absolutely over the moon we have him, I desperately hope the club do right by him and I believe in his ability to take us further than any manager since Bobby. But he is stubborn. I can happily live with that, but he is. We've had a few Messiahs of our own at LFC too, you know But there's nothing wrong in loving a bloke who has devoted his heart and soul to your club and given you some of the greatest moments of you football supporting life (and i lived through the 1980s...) and did it with charm and humility. Stubborn is a way too easy and a way to lazy word to tag on Rafa. It really is.

It hasn't been great, the football, even for the most harden realist. Neesy is correct, momentum is key for promoted sides, once they run out its over. (Hull, Burnley, Blackpool) However we aren't the usual promoted side and should have more going for us when we do go back up. I think the way we're setup will benefit us going forward as we will be underdogs, especially from home, but Rafa could have opened up at home and made this season a lot more easier on the nerves. He didn't that's his choice, personally not best pleased as it shows a lack of flex, but least he has a game plan, and follows it. I'm happy he's here, he's the best manager we've had since SBR, its sparked a generation to care about the club again, but he's played this season wrong imo, he had so much more in him but played it safe. None of that matter if when we go up apart from one thing, momentum, again neesy is right, we may not have that when August comes round (we better have a squad that counteracts it is all im saying) 'Momentum' is another myth that needs binning. If you think you're to get a result v Chelsea on opening day next season because you jizzed all over Wigan and Burton Albion, and won the league by 30 points, you're in cloud cuckoo land. Toatal bollocks. See Burnley Vs Man utd, Hull under Phil Brown. Early momentum from being confident and on a buzz can win you matches, yes its not everything but every little helps. Recent example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37067882 Burnley won that because they had a game plan which wasn't pretty, but they stuck to it, defended well, were compact and well organised, didn't make any errors and took their chances. They let us have the ball and we couldn't do much with it. These attributes might sound familiar to you. I That's their gameplan now and its not working. Case closed your honour. Er, they're not in the bottom 3. Do you think if they opened up and went for it they'd be better off?

It hasn't been great, the football, even for the most harden realist. Neesy is correct, momentum is key for promoted sides, once they run out its over. (Hull, Burnley, Blackpool) However we aren't the usual promoted side and should have more going for us when we do go back up. I think the way we're setup will benefit us going forward as we will be underdogs, especially from home, but Rafa could have opened up at home and made this season a lot more easier on the nerves. He didn't that's his choice, personally not best pleased as it shows a lack of flex, but least he has a game plan, and follows it. I'm happy he's here, he's the best manager we've had since SBR, its sparked a generation to care about the club again, but he's played this season wrong imo, he had so much more in him but played it safe. None of that matter if when we go up apart from one thing, momentum, again neesy is right, we may not have that when August comes round (we better have a squad that counteracts it is all im saying) 'Momentum' is another myth that needs binning. If you think you're to get a result v Chelsea on opening day next season because you jizzed all over Wigan and Burton Albion, and won the league by 30 points, you're in cloud cuckoo land. Toatal bollocks. See Burnley Vs Man utd, Hull under Phil Brown. Early momentum from being confident and on a buzz can win you matches, yes its not everything but every little helps. Recent example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37067882 Burnley won that because they had a game plan which wasn't pretty, but they stuck to it, defended well, were compact and well organised, didn't make any errors and took their chances. They let us have the ball and we couldn't do much with it. These attributes might sound familiar to you. I

It hasn't been great, the football, even for the most harden realist. Neesy is correct, momentum is key for promoted sides, once they run out its over. (Hull, Burnley, Blackpool) However we aren't the usual promoted side and should have more going for us when we do go back up. I think the way we're setup will benefit us going forward as we will be underdogs, especially from home, but Rafa could have opened up at home and made this season a lot more easier on the nerves. He didn't that's his choice, personally not best pleased as it shows a lack of flex, but least he has a game plan, and follows it. I'm happy he's here, he's the best manager we've had since SBR, its sparked a generation to care about the club again, but he's played this season wrong imo, he had so much more in him but played it safe. None of that matter if when we go up apart from one thing, momentum, again neesy is right, we may not have that when August comes round (we better have a squad that counteracts it is all im saying) 'Momentum' is another myth that needs binning. If you think you're to get a result v Chelsea on opening day next season because you jizzed all over Wigan and Burton Albion, and won the league by 30 points, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

It's debatable. For a start, Man Utd were unstoppable. Maybe after SAF had gone. Secondly, his methods are definitely more suited to a high finish and good cup runs than an all out assault on the title. Thirdly, fighting with Hicks and Gillette had exhausted him and distracted him. It would have been tough for him to regenerate and recharge in the job. But it's a giant shame he didn't get to work under FSG and a stable ownership. Maybe with their backing, and calmer waters, and Man Utd in decline, we might have done. One thing's for sure, the past few years would have been more successful.

KK and sir Bobby were construed as stubborn... I love your impassioned defence of him btw, it speaks volumes! Do post more... I love the crazy bastard. Always have. Always will. Most Liverpool fans are the same. We were rated as the forth best team in Europe under Rafa. I'm still bitter that he was forced out by a couple of besuited rats and replaced by a gigantic footballing fraud like The Dreaded Hodge.Occasionally it spills over...

This 'stubborn' shit can piss right off too. He's not stubborn at all. He has methods which have brought him enormous success and to which he rightly cleaves. But he's cuts his cloth according to his means wherever he's been. If Rafa believed 4-4-2 or 1-1-9 would suit the staff and bring success, he'd do it. God knows where the stubborn myth comes from. He's a singular man, with an all consuming passion for the game, who works his knackers off. That's not the same as stubborn, which is the laziest, knee-jerk no-nothing shite that people who don't understand the game one iota throw at him.

Guessing different people have different viewpoints on the expectations of manager with their resources etc. For example, I've met 2 Liverpool fans today who don't rate him that highly despite what happened in Istanbul. I work there a lot and many would swap him for Klopp tomorrow if they could, he is more than just their KK to us like! They reason that under their current owners and how they spend today he would win them the league. That's some utter s*** there. Klopp has a £20m profit on transfers and Rodgers hardly spent massive amounts considering the money they recouped. I'm talking about no interference from owners when it comes to spend and transfers. Klopp can basically buy whoever he wants if the money is there. Rafa had to fight tooth and nail for Toress for example. Anyway I'm just going off Liverpool fans. They woud have Rafa back tomorrow, many at the expense of Klopp. Me personally, Klopp, KK and Ancelotti are probably the only people I'd have here at NUFC ahead of Rafa. Those two Liverpool fans must be complete twats because the man's a legend for us. I honestly haven't met a Liverpool alive who didn't rate him. Even the ones who were critical of his methods rated him as a tactician and his ability t5o buy players and improve them. And we *all* think he's a fucking great bloke. I mean, how can you not like the bloke? He's charming, funny, humble and my God, he works his nuts off for the fans. He gets it. We're more than happy with Klopp, and can see the massive potential there. But if he upped sticks and left, Rafa would be welcomed back with open arms.

I have no doubt in Rafa's mentality at all. I know he's up to it. The question is: are your players? Of course it's Rafa's job to make sure they are, but if a team lacks leaders and is mentally fragile it is hard to paper over the cracks. I bet he wanted to get players in with the right mentality in January. I still make you massive favourites to win the league. But tomorrow v Brum will say much about the psychological strength of the players after what happened last week. Win and you'll be fine. Lose and the pressure will grow, as will these kinds of questions.

I wonder who won him the two league titles in Spain with a club that wasn't one of the big 2? He didn't win it once which you could put down as a fluke but you don't usually fluke your way to two titles. I guess he could have treated the league season as a cup competition though. Won it with 70 something points twice. 1 of them Deportivo finished 2nd. Neither were flukes. But it just goes to show the best seasons in his career - his team still dropped a lot of points. He regularly got similar amount of points at Liverpool but that wasn't enough to win league titles. His best ever season in terms of points was at Liverpool which they lost against a very strong Man Utd side. Again you would say being too defensive at home cost them the league. Too many home draws. It's a pattern in his career. He's a fine manager but his teams have never dominated a league. Is there a manager who dominates a league ready to take the job? I'm not advocating that we can do better. I'm saying - rafa making harder work of this league than we might have imagined isn't an indication he's not still a top manager or we should be worried long-term. It's actually consistent in his career. It's not his style to steamroller any division. Another Championship manager could do a better job in this division imo. But medium/long term? He's the best man for sure. Another championship manager like Steve Bruce? Or Alex Neil? Norwich and Villa fans would happily swap places with you right now. At the season's start, I thought Norwich had a stronger side than you and were better suited to the Champo, fwiw. But really, who? Gary Monk? I think some of you forget how on your arse you were when you went down and how downright godawful, p*ss-stinking, laughing-stock s*** you've been for more than a decade. And that's not even considering the off the field fuckery. You could easily be where Villa are now, with 30,000 every week moaning their arse off, in absolute pieces. In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that if you hadn't got Rafa, and if he hadn't got you a couple of good players like Clark and Ritchie and others, you'd be absolutely Freddie f***ed right now. Maybe there is some Liverpool love in on here that I'm not aware of, but although we are the epitome of a badly run club, Liverpool have continued to spend a fortune year in year out and have virtually nothing to show for it. Your recent failures are virtually as bad as ours considering the money you've spent. Hmmm. I haven't seen us relegated recently. We've made some terrible mistakes though, admittedly. Not least getting rid of Rafa and replacing him with a monumental fraud like Roy Hodgson. Maybe a lesson in there somewhere?

I wonder who won him the two league titles in Spain with a club that wasn't one of the big 2? He didn't win it once which you could put down as a fluke but you don't usually fluke your way to two titles. I guess he could have treated the league season as a cup competition though. Won it with 70 something points twice. 1 of them Deportivo finished 2nd. Neither were flukes. But it just goes to show the best seasons in his career - his team still dropped a lot of points. He regularly got similar amount of points at Liverpool but that wasn't enough to win league titles. His best ever season in terms of points was at Liverpool which they lost against a very strong Man Utd side. Again you would say being too defensive at home cost them the league. Too many home draws. It's a pattern in his career. He's a fine manager but his teams have never dominated a league. Is there a manager who dominates a league ready to take the job? I'm not advocating that we can do better. I'm saying - rafa making harder work of this league than we might have imagined isn't an indication he's not still a top manager or we should be worried long-term. It's actually consistent in his career. It's not his style to steamroller any division. Another Championship manager could do a better job in this division imo. But medium/long term? He's the best man for sure. Another championship manager like Steve Bruce? Or Alex Neil? Norwich and Villa fans would happily swap places with you right now. At the season's start, I thought Norwich had a stronger side than you and were better suited to the Champo, fwiw. But really, who? Gary Monk? I think some of you forget how on your arse you were when you went down and how downright godawful, p*ss-stinking, laughing-stock s*** you've been for more than a decade. And that's not even considering the off the field fuckery. You could easily be where Villa are now, with 30,000 every week moaning their arse off, in absolute pieces. In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that if you hadn't got Rafa, and if he hadn't got you a couple of good players like Clark and Ritchie and others, you'd be absolutely Freddie f***ed right now. Having watched over 50 Championship games this season, 20 odd involving us and loads as a neutral on TV I think you're talking rubbish. Any team that can call on Gayle, Shelvey, Ritchie and Yedlin is going to be up at the tip end of this league even if most of the other players are pretty much run of the mill Championship standard. This is madness. Gayle, Ritchie and Yedlin wouldn't be anywhere near you without Rafa. He brought them to you!!

Deluded about what exactly? I haven't read the whole thread, but from what I can see, most people are discussing tactics after a bad home defeat. Tbh I think it's pretty deluded for some to think you'd be in a better position if Rafa had left last summer.

I wonder who won him the two league titles in Spain with a club that wasn't one of the big 2? He didn't win it once which you could put down as a fluke but you don't usually fluke your way to two titles. I guess he could have treated the league season as a cup competition though. Won it with 70 something points twice. 1 of them Deportivo finished 2nd. Neither were flukes. But it just goes to show the best seasons in his career - his team still dropped a lot of points. He regularly got similar amount of points at Liverpool but that wasn't enough to win league titles. His best ever season in terms of points was at Liverpool which they lost against a very strong Man Utd side. Again you would say being too defensive at home cost them the league. Too many home draws. It's a pattern in his career. He's a fine manager but his teams have never dominated a league. Is there a manager who dominates a league ready to take the job? I'm not advocating that we can do better. I'm saying - rafa making harder work of this league than we might have imagined isn't an indication he's not still a top manager or we should be worried long-term. It's actually consistent in his career. It's not his style to steamroller any division. Another Championship manager could do a better job in this division imo. But medium/long term? He's the best man for sure. Another championship manager like Steve Bruce? Or Alex Neil? Norwich and Villa fans would happily swap places with you right now. At the season's start, I thought Norwich had a stronger side than you and were better suited to the Champo, fwiw. But really, who? Gary Monk? I think some of you forget how on your arse you were when you went down and how downright godawful, piss-stinking, laughing-stock shit you've been for more than a decade. And that's not even considering the off the field fuckery. You could easily be where Villa are now, with 30,000 every week moaning their arse off, in absolute pieces. In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that if you hadn't got Rafa, and if he hadn't got you a couple of good players like Clark and Ritchie and others, you'd be absolutely Freddie Fucked right now.

I wonder who won him the two league titles in Spain with a club that wasn't one of the big 2? He didn't win it once which you could put down as a fluke but you don't usually fluke your way to two titles. I guess he could have treated the league season as a cup competition though. Won it with 70 something points twice. 1 of them Deportivo finished 2nd. Neither were flukes. But it just goes to show the best seasons in his career - his team still dropped a lot of points. He regularly got similar amount of points at Liverpool but that wasn't enough to win league titles. His best ever season in terms of points was at Liverpool which they lost against a very strong Man Utd side. Again you would say being too defensive at home cost them the league. Too many home draws. It's a pattern in his career. He's a fine manager but his teams have never dominated a league. Up to a point Lord Copper. There's definitely an argument to say Rafa's successes have been more frequent in cups than league titles because of his ability to prepare a team and set it up tactically for one-off matches. For me, it remains his greatest strength. While random bad results are his greatest weakness Re 2008/2009, you're wrong to saw we were too defensive at home. We were never too defensive at home. We dominated teams but we were unable to convert any number of chances, particularly the west ham game at home which saw us go top. Home draws sometimes happen though when teams come and park the bus, as they did. But more costly were a couple of rancid aways where we didn't show up - 1-1 Wigan and a 2-0 to Boro, which summed us up - we beat Real Madrid before and after that. We finished the season very strongly but even then a 4-4 draw with Arsenal bit us on the arse. we were probably too defensive in that match ...

Well, if you don't end up going up then at least you'll be shut of him and your problems will be over. Maybe he'll do you a bigger favour, get you up and then leave, allowing you to get Nigel Pearson or another managerial titan like the ones who've brought you such glory over the past decade.

Out of interest, what was he like for you when you played at home? Good. We blew teams away quite often. But we had a team that could do that, especially when Torres arrived. We pressed and squeezed teams high up the pitch and and played him in. Not many could match our intensity. But it meant we were vulnerable to teams who could counter, especially as Carra and Sami Hyppia were hardly pacy CBs. I remember Villa when they had Agbonlahor and a few other pacy guys beating us a few times. Rafa also built a midfield of Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard (a bit better than Shelvey, Colback and Diame I admit...) which meant we always had control. We dropped points, usually draws, which did cost us at a time when Man Utd seem to win every f***ing game in the 93rd minute. Our intensity would drop, or Rafa might rotate with a European game in mind, understandably sometimes, as our squad wasn't as deep as others. But generally I remember the odd insipid away performance being more of a problem than home form. But it cost us. Rafa is not title winning manager (though he won two titles in Spain.) Thing is, Rafa turns everyone into a tactical expert. He sets such a great store by it. And gets it right so often and gets the plaudits. But it means when the tactics go wrong he gets the crap. And tactics only work if players are able to carry them out. And players are fallible. These debates were common when he was at LFC. Just let them off the leash, some would say. But you need a tactical plan, said others. Rafa's always got a plan. For all the money that was spent, andthis was pre man city and chelsea days, did Liverepool really come close to wining the title under Rafa ? Pre Chelsea days? You sure about that? Yes we did. In 2008/09. We got 86 points, which would have won it most seasons. Thought we had it but Howard Webb....another time, another time. This to a backdrop of boardroom fuckery too. But winning Premier league titles is not his strong point in my view. Not that I think that should be a dealbreaker right now for you lads, like....