St. Maximin

1 hour ago, Jaqen said:

International football for the most part is fairly boring. The successful sides usually aren't playing great attacking football and blowing everyone away. It's kind of all about trying to create a system that gives you a solid platform that protects the weak areas of the side and hopefully allows your good attacking players to win you the game. 

 

Our central defense is obviously what we consider our weakness to be so generally setup with two holding players to try and minimise how much they get exposed. 

 

You get the squad for a week at time every few months, it's hard to implement anything too crazy with 11 players that don't play together normally. The Spain side that dominated had the advantage that most of them were all playing at Barca together in a very specific style, even then they were pretty boring and negative just hid it behind their possession. 

 

I get alot of the frustrations but I think people also have unfair expectations of what they think an international team should look like. 

I kind of agree but it’s certainly far from a rule. France weren’t by and large amazing to watch in 2018 even if very good and Portugal were awful in 2016 - safe to say they relied a lot on luck then. 
 

However, I wouldn’t say Argentina were boring in 2022. I know France pulled it back to make a stunning final, but they absolutely destroyed the champions that first half through positive and attacking football. I think it’s fair to say ‘on paper’ they weren’t the best squad and didn’t try to make up for their deficiencies through caution. Italy in 2021 were also (surprisingly) great to watch if I recall correctly and again I don’t think they had the best squad, but were definitely the best team in the tournament. Pretty sure if we’d swapped managers we’d have dominated that match and won in normal time. 
 

Southgate tries to compensate for defensive weaknesses with fewer attackers and likes to rely on players he ‘trusts’. It’s such a negative and frustrating tactic. Playing your best players doesn’t mean you should be gung ho and neglect defensive responsibilities. He also has plenty of time between tournaments to embed young and exciting or in-form players. Instead he’ll get to the tournament too reluctant to use Foden because he hasn’t allowed the team to be built around him, for example. 

14 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

The point I was (poorly) making about the 'England always lose once they meet someone good' argument wasn't so much that it's completely untrue. It's that it's disproportionate and an unfair stick to beat him with, given: the apparent rubbing-out of achievements prior to the defeat; the strength of the opposition we lost to; the ultra-fine margins in the defeats themselves; and given the context of previous England showings at tournaments.

 

Re the bit in bold, I think he's more than earned the chance for another crack at the Euros because it's still very much his team, despite what people will say about victories happening in spite of him. The argument seems to be that we have the players but we don't have the manager, as if replacing him means those ultra-fine margins suddenly swing in our favour. That's possible, but not probable imo. I'm not sure who we could recruit with an outstanding baseline and the time to implement their philosophy. 

 

The expectations should be great atm, I'll definitely admit that, because there are exceptional players everywhere in the side and we can win the next tournament. Hopefully the draw is kind and we meet the one team arguably better than us in the final and not before. 

Yeah, I agree there is definitely a lot of context needed, but I think it’s easily stated for a reason.
 

He’s received a lot of praise, in particular in 2018 and 2021, much of which I agree with and I find it frustrating when some of his biggest critics are so polarised and can’t appreciate the nuances. Saying that on the other hand I think he really benefits from situations he’s in, being compared to the poor managers before him, and I would say a tendency from some to see England as brave losers, plucky underdogs etc. There was nothing particularly heroic about 2021 but England gave us a reason to be excited and feel united after the worst part of a pandemic and playing almost entirely in front of home fans. You can and should still thank him for what he did to put that team together, but it’s not wrong to say we didn’t have the hardest run and the final showed us his limitations and naturally patience for that will wear thin. 

2 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

I don't think you'll find many who'd argue against the idea that the loyalty to Henderson at this point is regressive, but on the whole he's been good for Southgate's England. He shouldn't start in the Euros though, basically everyone will agree with that, even Southgate. He didn't start in the opening group games at the World Cup. 

 

As for destroying sides; we routinely score 4, 5, 6 or more in qualifying and have had several very emphatic victories in all of the tournaments he's been the manager in, too. Incidentally that isn't routine in tournaments; even the World Champions lost to Saudi Arabia and only just squeezed past Australia in the knockouts. The likes of Portugal springs to mind too, who infamously won the thing after drawing three times in the group. 

 

I know he's got his faults, I just think a lot of the criticism is disproportionate. The 'England aren't attacking,' and 'England always just end up losing to anyone good,' are the two fundamentally flawed arguments that have always cropped up in the Southgate era imo.

I’m by no means Southgate’s biggest defender, but I agreed with all of this until the end. Isn’t that right we always end up losing to good times, having beaten ‘on paper’ weaker sides? Colombia in Sweden in 2018 were nothing special, though I’d actually cut Southgate some slack for Croatia as they were a strong side with a terrific midfield, so he definitely deserved to continue the role.
 

However, ‘2020’ we practically hosted and despite being ‘good’ sides, beating Germany and Denmark (perhaps with good fortune) at home are hardly incredible achievements. Then we lost to an Italy team on penalties, so very small margins, but it was still a failure to beat an arguably weaker side with a home crowd. Then for all the excitement of 2022, we were hardly challenged until the quarter-final, looked shocking against USA and the African champions missed their star man. France are a terrific side so again I’d cut him slack, but given injuries it still seemed a missed opportunity. 
 

Southgate has done brilliant things gelling the England squad and reconnecting them with the fans, so I’m annoyed this gets often overlooked. However, I’d say over time there’s only so much patience we can afford. We have world-class players and one of the best squads around, so expectations should naturally be higher than even a few years ago and we can’t keep seeing the team is plucky underdogs. For a lot of people he’s taken us as far as he can get and outstayed his welcome, rather than bizarrely seen as a failure that some would have it. 

20 hours ago, Wolfcastle said:

I wouldn't be too concerned if I were him, its just yet another business the Saudi's have invested in.

You can attach 'sportswashing' to differentiate it from anything else and that's a load of bollocks in itself. Could just as easily come up with 'business-washing' and or 'airline washing' and leave sport off the hook like those industries are now.

As is the notion that 'sportswashing' is to hide their human rights records when owning football clubs and hosting world cups is one of the worst things you could do if that's the case (most people in the west knew nothing about Qatar until they got/hosted the world cup) so you have to doubt that's the case at all.

 

Think the most genuine concern should come from people who love the club and dont want it associated with Saudi. The other way I don't think really works. You shouldn't feel any differently about KSA now than you did before they owned a football club.

 

Just my two penneth obviously.

 

 

 

Agree that’s who the most genuine concern should be when it comes to ‘sportswashing’. The human rights issues are what KSA does to people and not how they’re trying to improve their reputation, not that that’s what it’s solely about anyway. It would be weird and inconsistent if this takeover was blocked on sportswashing grounds as the likes of AI wanted, as it’s not a legal issue, but can still understandably make people feel uncomfortable - someone who cheers the team on and the success their money might bring would typically feel more uneasy than others who gain no benefit from it. 

Regarding the success of sportswashing, I think it’s a bit different to whitewashing as it isn’t really covering up the acts, but giving more positive coverage in addition. There aren’t other similar words currently as you say, but isn’t trying to improve a reputation typical for all sorts of entities (including businesses, organisations etc) that have and can do harmful things? In fact some could say we did it over here in 2005 by winning the Olympics not long after invading Middle Eastern countries. 
 

Ultimately though I’m not sure it’s about being seen as more likeable, but more about relevant and intertwined with our culture and politics for economic benefit primarily. I don’t think all their investment in football has really made them seem more likeable or improved a reputation. It’s no doubt helped western tourism and bizarrely gained a small number of apologists within our fanbase, but for all the attention they’ve gained for sport, they’ve also gained it for human rights issues. And the Saudi league by and large seems to be another reason to be annoyed at the country right now. Appreciate maybe that will change in time though. 

Well done Adam. Only thing more he could have done is disable the comments. 
 

Actually think as well as being thick a lot of our fans are really weird. Who said you had to like your owners? You can appreciate them taking over your club, but they’re ultimately here to make money in some way or another and you don’t owe them anything. 

I don’t get why people say that’s not offside under the rules? The lines are not going to be parallel with the pitch lines due to the camera angle. 

5 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Strongly disagree, it really helps atmosphere and - frankly - it’s fairer. Speaking as an away fan, being up in the clouds at Newcastle sucks. And in fact it’s against the rules, but Newcastle get an exemption afforded to nobody else because the local authority couldn’t find a way to make it work that didn’t compromise spectator safety.

 

Man U initially had the same exemption temporarily but fixed the issue.

Ah fair, actually didn’t know that. That was kind of tongue in cheek about Newcastle but I prefer it in the corner - just think it’s better if your home fans are directly behind both goals. 

Home teams putting their away fans right behind a goal. It’s way too close and looks ridiculous seeing them either cheer an away goal or stay quiet when the home team scores. Stuffing them right at the top is one thing Newcastle have always got right. 

He persists with his favourites and that stops us from being as good as we should be come the start of a tournament, while he seems very inconsistent with his decisions. His reluctance to play Foden intitially in Qatar was disappointing and I understand it’s due to him not playing centrally for club, but he’s picking players who never play anywhere for club. He seems to like players he can ‘rely’ on too, but sometimes being reliable isn’t really enough. 

9 hours ago, Stottie said:

A brilliant performance from him which deserved a win. Great movement and never loses the ball.

 

He gets lots of hate for reasons I can't quite comprehend, I think it is some combination of his face, his accent, his history with prior clubs, and his tenaciousness on the field, so huge amounts of noise to screen out about him. If you'll excuse the politics, some of the noise will be from folks with otherwise progressive views, because kicking down on people who seem working class or "common" never gets the limelight other forms of prejudice do. 

 

 

 

Not sure class has much to do with it and that kind of prejudice works both ways. The majority of English footballers seem to come from working class backgrounds. I agree on his accent (more as it’s scouse) and looks though, which definitely unfairly create a more negative perception of someone. 

Don’t buy the ‘fickle’ comments in general from football fans about others. Firstly who says it’s the same people and secondly why can’t you criticise people when they’re getting a lot wrong, just because they have been excellent? No one should be above criticism. I’m sure his critics still love him and so they should. He needs to find some form though and maybe he doesn’t go about things the right way. He’ll be back though. 

1 hour ago, Tiresias said:

I just don't get how people are all everyone is shitty and horrible too doesn't then come to the conclusion that none of this shit should ever be anything to do with our, or any, football club and it's sheer madness that it is. As said plenty of times, I had no say in ownership so I do not feel totally unable to enjoy the benefits, I don't think any of our fans have to give a shit, I just don't get people seemingly now 'supporting' saudi arabia as if they are NUFC now. They just are the ones giving us money, for different reasons which may or may not work. 

Agree but I think very few people seem to be supporters of KSA. I think those that do feel the need to defend them are probably getting a bit defensive or trying to justify the takeover to themselves. 

57 minutes ago, triggs said:

Mad how people on here use a Tory led government (who everybody on here hates) to make some point about why they should care about the Saudis' wrongdoings

Surely the point is more to add context in response to all the criticism of Newcastle fans being comfortable with this?

Does anyone else feel ever so more increasingly more comfortable the longer we’ve been owned by KSA and the better we’ve become? At first there was much needed relief and we were also fighting relegation. Now we’re in the CL, spending increasingly more money and constantly surrounded by positivity, I’m worrying a bit more perhaps out of guilt given all the abuses continuing to go on while we’re out celebrating the significant impacts of Saudi investment. Not that we ourselves have anything to apologise for. 

Sure it would be very shocking to potentially see (a very small and stupid minority of) Newcastle fans cheering MBS on, but you’d hope the club realised inviting him would be a clear own goal. His brother attending the Carabao Cup final didn’t make much news but nobody knows who he is. 

On 17/08/2023 at 11:51, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I really want to believe that all the critics actually care about human rights in Saudi Arabia, but I think most of them are just happy to have something to use against Newcastle fans. 
 

I’m completely for making arguments against the things the Saudi regime do. I just don’t think it has a place in the realm of football fan rivalry. 
 

I don’t think needling other football fans is very comparable to satirical comedy. 

 

 

 

I would agree and cynically I also think many people that do genuinely care about human rights aren’t really bothered about sportswashing, but use it to make their concerns about human rights seem relevant and topical. I’m not sure what benefit it really has to fighting human rights abuses by ensuring we have a negative opinion on certain countries, but maybe that’s me not understanding the issues enough. 
 

Where I do feel rival fans can comment here with more legitimate frustrations is the ‘separation’ stuff. 

Also enjoyed the second episode more than the first. It’s been mentioned before we don’t have to like the people running our club, but they seem very likeable and genuine. When the corporate world can often be quite cold and ruthless, that shouldn’t be overlooked. 
 

Might just my way of seeing things though, but even with the cup final defeat it’s so positive it feels a bit cheesy. Quite like the broader range of emotion you get in other series, but that would probably come at a cost of the team struggling more…

Also depends who you count as ‘owners’. I’ve seen the phrase being used to talk about Staveley and co and how great they are (which seems fair). Also heard it being used to refer to the PIF/Saudi state and even that MBS fella. 
 

I think it’s not fair to label the state as a load of evil murderers, but MBS has ‘accepted responsibility’ for a journalist murdered under his leadership and we did largely support and celebrate his state taking us over after all. 

It comes across differently when written - if you watch the video it’s clearly lighthearted and he has a chuckle, presumably in relation to Tindall. Sure he might be a whingebag but he’s just having a laugh here and we shouldn’t get wound up by that. 

Ultimately people pick and choose how much they want to associate the country’s human rights record and morality of its dictator to its investing and growing involvement in our economy and culture. There’s no objectively right moral position here and I don’t really care what varying positions our fans might take here.
 

I personally think while we can still argue about the government selling arms or other clubs having evil owners too, I don’t feel fully satisfied with those justifications. I’m more happy to just say we aren’t celebrating a dictator here - the Saudi state is massive rather than just MBS and his murdering cronies, it is doing what it can do develop economically and if reputation comes into it then it has every right to. Every company or country that has bad press wants to improve its reputation and it’s not like everything or person to do with them are evil and should be made to suffer etc. 

The fans who decide to become KSA apologists are of course idiots, but they make up a small proportion of our fanbase and also despite being idiots I think many are probably smart enough to realise there’s a moral dilemma here. It’s just their way of justifying it to themselves. 
 

Where I do feel uncomfortable is when I try and be empathetic and think this can’t be nice to see if you’re a victim of the state’s brutal acts, like Khashoggi’s family or those locked up unfairly. Is it wrong to concern ourselves with what they think seeing Saudi influence being celebrated? Or when I’m considering other scenarios, like if Russia bought the club instead - aside from the obvious practicalities, would that actually be any less defendable?

Ultimately it’s pretty normal to vote selfishly so it’s not at all surprising the Reubens (and apparently Staveley and Ghodoussi) vote for the party that financially benefits them the most. I get the anger at people voting Tory, but politics is complex and you don’t have to agree with every policy to vote for a party. I doubt they go to the polling station consciously thinking about how keen they are to see more food banks also even if their vote contributes to it. 
 

But yeah either way, the other 80% is (the investment fund of) a state with a horrendous human rights record and clearly very evil dictator, so moral issues resulting from our other owners’ charitable deeds pale in comparison. 

1 minute ago, Wilson said:

 

Comment was nowt to do with your opinion, It was (clearly) about you picking up on a minor negative despite everything else that went on last night. 

 

There’s nothing wrong with that. I’d already given him loads of praise. I’m sure my comment was pretty minor too in the grand scheme of things. 

2 minutes ago, toon25 said:

Fuck the Tories.

Yes I agree. That was a joke I should make pretty clear relating to a different conversation. 

4 minutes ago, Rod said:

Oh Christ!  So you actually are a primary school teacher?

Not in a million years. Thanks for pointing out I forgot to explain that one too. 

Look I just said I don’t want to see diving. Pretty sure people on here have said it about Miggy, Joelinton and Wilson before and certainly complained about players like Alli and Grealish doing it. I don’t get this sudden change of reaction. Hardly a controversial opinion 

6 hours ago, Vinny Green Balls said:

Oh FFS. Woe is you.

Sorry, I should expect mocking from a load of people behind s keyboard for saying I don’t like someone’s cheating. If you guys don’t mind it I’m sure you can cope with my difference of opinion. 
 

The Tory bit was a joke before you get too upset.