4-3-3 is here to stay - so what now?

[Howaythelads]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

[johnnypd]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

 

what makes you think owen and martins can play the wide roles in a 4-3-3?

[Shak]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

 

what makes you think owen and martins can play the wide roles in a 4-3-3?

 

Aside from N'Zogbia, I don't see anyone in our squad who's currently fit that seems a particularly better bet.

[johnnypd]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

 

what makes you think owen and martins can play the wide roles in a 4-3-3?

 

Aside from N'Zogbia, I don't see anyone in our squad who's currently fit that seems a particularly better bet.

 

don't think martins can play there without some intense training and about a year adjusting, and don't think owen can play there ever. then viduka in the middle trying to forage for long balls punted 50 yards when his mobility is minimal doesn't seem pretty wise either. at the moment we don't have the players for that system, duff and n'zogbia perhaps could, smith too on the right but none of those options are particularly thrilling.

[CaliMag]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

 

Why not consider throwing Milner into the mix instead:

4-4-2: Milner or Martins + Owen or Viduka

4-4-3: Milner and Martins + Owen or Viduka

 

Edit: I have the order of the pairs reversed... but you can see what I mean.

[johnnypd]

4-4-2 : Viduka or Smith + Owen or Martins.

 

4-3-3: Viduka or Smith + Owen and Martins.

 

Why not consider throwing Milner into the mix instead:

4-4-2: Milner or Martins + Owen or Viduka

4-4-3: Milner and Martins + Owen or Viduka

 

Edit: I have the order of the pairs reversed... but you can see what I mean.

 

milner just plays as if he's playing in a 4-4-2 circa 1953, regardless of the formation he's in. he's an old fashioned will o the wisp winger and can't really play any other way.

[Guest Harry Norway]

i`ve seen 3 games on TV this season,cant se much diffrent from GR time yet,but it cant be worse then last season.

 

I`m still dreaming of the glory days we had with KK,we got a lot of new supportes those days,cant se this will happend with Big S,we are playing boring fotball at the moment,but its still early,so  we can still hope for some entertaiment fro the Toon.

 

See you all in oct.against Man.City,i`ll be over with my family.

[Guest black]

i`ve seen 3 games on TV this season,cant se much diffrent from GR time yet,but it cant be worse then last season.

 

I`m still dreaming of the glory days we had with KK,we got a lot of new supportes those days,cant se this will happend with Big S,we are playing boring fotball at the moment,but its still early,so  we can still hope for some entertaiment fro the Toon.

 

See you all in oct.against Man.City,i`ll be over with my family.

 

keaganite!

[Guest Knightrider]

cant se much diffrent from GR time yet,but it cant be worse then last season.

 

Oh there has been a change, a massive one. While the team aren't performing well together enough to produce a decent performance, we work harder, seem fitter, look much more organised, more disciplined, stronger and there is lots of communication. The quality isn't there yet despite having quality players on the pitch, but in time that will come and with it so will better performances, once everyone has adjusted and gotten to grips with Big Sam's methods. I remember when he first took over he said he'd like to hit the ground running and that his players will have to learn many new things while on their toes, this isn't easy so performances and lack of quality isn't surprising.

 

Back to 4-3-3, in his latter days as a Bolton manager their midfield and attack was very fluid and each player could play each others' roles, for example Anelka could play CF or LF, Diouf LF and RF, Davies the same while in midfield Speed, Campo and Nolan all played DCM or ACM roles. This is great news for us because in a year's time we'll have players who are comfortable in a number of roles who can tactically switch modes during a game to suit any kind of circumstance the game throws up. There won't be many teams who throw us with their lineup or tactics while on the same theme we'll be able to tactically outsmart others.

 

I think at the moment the manager is experimenting a lot and finding out about his players where it matters, on the pitch. He did this at Bolton until he was settled on his players, their strengths and weaknesses and able to buy in the type of players he wanted for his system, Anelka being one of them for example.

 

In short he's starting from scratch here and we have a long way to go to become that fluid 4-3-3. We'll get there though

[eaststar]

Gotta love coach's optimism 

 

i agree with a lot of what you say...but one thing is...I just can't see owen adapting to 4-3-3.

 

will like to see what Big Sam comes up with...

[ChezGiven]

I've watched the Boro game twice now and we were much more dangerous in the second half with 442. Boro also played better football in the second but we created much more opportunities than in the first.

 

I think its important to get the team to learn how to play 433, as its going to be a starting formation more often than not. The key factor is time and patience as the players adapt to the new system.

[Guest Knightrider]

Gotta love coach's optimism 

 

i agree with a lot of what you say...but one thing is...I just can't see owen adapting to 4-3-3.

 

will like to see what Big Sam comes up with...

 

Maybe at the top of a forward three Owen could adapt/get some joy as he has done before for Liverpool, although his game has changed drastically since those days. In time I think Big Sam will want a mobile striker as the centre-forward and I honestly think he wouldn't be too sad to see either of Owen or Martins leave for the right money providing he could replace them well with players better suited to a 4-3-3. Interesting times ahead indeed.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

I think its important to get the team to learn how to play 433, as its going to be a starting formation more often than not. The key factor is time and patience as the players adapt to the new system.

 

Spot on and even if this comes at the cost of performances or attractive football, it has to be done because this system will be the backbone of any success that comes our way as a TEAM.

[Guest jimmy1982]

This is all good stuff, but I've been thinking today that the disheartening thing is you just know there's a lot of people at the match who'll be just as impatient as ever. Even if all these little signs are pointing towards something great in a season or two's time, with a load of good new players learning new systems and the club being completely re-jigged from top to bottom, it'll only take a few more superficially lacklustre performances for some people to start huffing and puffing in the stands. And once that happens it gets harder and harder to progress - doesn't matter if everybody else can see what Sam's trying to do, cos as we've seen before negativity passes to the players and they start losing confidence, getting hurried into making poor decisions and then we're back in it again. It looks like Sam's been bringing in characters who can deal with that sort of situation and come through it, like Smith and Barton, but then I thought that about Parker in his first season and he turned out to be a bit lacking in that respect.

 

Got a lot of repect for the way Sam's taking it a bit cautiously at the moment - if we were to lose a few on the bounce at this stage the doom and gloomers would be out before he's had a chance. i just hope if Enrique or Rosenhal misplace a few passes in the next few home matches, or even give a goal away, people take a deep breath and think about it before just instinctively giving them abuse.

[Guest Knightrider]

The manager himself has aknowledged that to get the fans' patience and understanding he's going to have to communicate with us and explain things which up to now he's excelled at and that's certainly helping things because prior to his appointment many were either against it or undecided.

[Howaythelads]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

[ChezGiven]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

You dont think the players will adapt given time? I mean 5-10 games.

[Guest Knightrider]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

[ChezGiven]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

 

Shouldnt we be thankful for a manager who knows how to use different systems and can change things when things arent working out? Certainly a step up on the last few seasons where this was a common complaint.

[Guest Knightrider]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

 

Shouldnt we be thankful for a manager who knows how to use different systems and can change things when things arent working out? Certainly a step up on the last few seasons where this was a common complaint.

 

We should, I know I am. This is why our poor performances don't bother me in the slightest because I know what is at the end of them, what service 4-3-3 will provide us with in the near future, what good having players who can alternate between roles and different systems to cope with any giving game scenario, will do for us - success. It is the only way outside of spending £200m on a team of superstars and even then there is no guarantee as there aren't many Mourinhos out there to knit it all together like he has done at Chelsea. Every match we play under Big Sam will be like laying a brick. One day we'll have a wall, then another, until it's a house, a big fuck off one, that no wolf can blow down.

[Guest jimmy1982]

Ha ha, nice one. I must admit I share your optimism... It's a bit of a novelty for us to have a manager who seems to have a carefully thought-out plan about where he wants to go and how he wants to get there.

[ChezGiven]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

 

Shouldnt we be thankful for a manager who knows how to use different systems and can change things when things arent working out? Certainly a step up on the last few seasons where this was a common complaint.

 

We should, I know I am. This is why our poor performances don't bother me in the slightest because I know what is at the end of them, what service 4-3-3 will provide us with in the near future, what good having players who can alternate between roles and different systems to cope with any giving game scenario, will do for us - success. It is the only way outside of spending £200m on a team of superstars and even then there is no guarantee as there aren't many Mourinhos out there to knit it all together like he has done at Chelsea. Every match we play under Big Sam will be like laying a brick. One day we'll have a wall, then another, until it's a house, a big fuck off one, that no wolf can blow down.

 

 

I think we have to let the system bed-in and the players need to adapt. However, i expect to see imprvements in the fluidity of passing the ball about sooner rarther than later. The direct style requires highly accurate passing and good knowledge of team-mates movement. This shouldnt take seasons to see the improvement in this.

 

We also have 4 players that will be key for the season who havent started and 2 players yet to come in. We need to lay a few more bricks, or something 

[Guest Knightrider]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

 

Shouldnt we be thankful for a manager who knows how to use different systems and can change things when things arent working out? Certainly a step up on the last few seasons where this was a common complaint.

 

We should, I know I am. This is why our poor performances don't bother me in the slightest because I know what is at the end of them, what service 4-3-3 will provide us with in the near future, what good having players who can alternate between roles and different systems to cope with any giving game scenario, will do for us - success. It is the only way outside of spending £200m on a team of superstars and even then there is no guarantee as there aren't many Mourinhos out there to knit it all together like he has done at Chelsea. Every match we play under Big Sam will be like laying a brick. One day we'll have a wall, then another, until it's a house, a big fuck off one, that no wolf can blow down.

 

 

I think we have to let the system bed-in and the players need to adapt. However, i expect to see imprvements in the fluidity of passing the ball about sooner rarther than later. The direct style requires highly accurate passing and good knowledge of team-mates movement. This shouldnt take seasons to see the improvement in this.

 

We also have 4 players that will be key for the season who havent started and 2 players yet to come in. We need to lay a few more bricks, or something 

 

Big Sam is wetting the trowel as we speak.

 

PS Agree with all that you say.

[Guest jimmy1982]

It's not a matter of patience, I've been waiting decades and have loads of patience. It's a matter of believing we'll do nowt using a 4-3-3.

 

5 points from 3 games in isn't bad. Bolton achieved all their success with 4-3-3 too. It will work for us, just not a few of our players, but hey, the same can be said of any formation really. Some players will suit it some won't, some will excel some will go backwards.

 

I think once Barton and Emre are back, N'Zogbia moves further forward and Owen and Viduka return to full fitness and we've gelled as a team and are getting to grips with the manager's tactics and methods, we'll look far better. That's gonna take time though. He has to persist with it as I've already said it will be the bedrock of any success that comes our way. Unlike past managers or other managers though, he's not dogged enough to stick with it when it blatantly isn't working, hence reverting to 4-4-2 at the weekend and talk of 4-4-2 tonight.

 

On the other side of the coin...

I think 433 probably will work for us, and I've got a lot of confidence in Sam, but I think there is a trap of just thinking:

 

Bolton's 433 + Bolton'd old manager + more money therefore better players at Newcastle = more attractive and successful team than Bolton had.

 

It does seem to be logical that it would follow that way, but when you start assuming that better players in a 433 will certainly be able to produce a more fluid style than we saw at Bolton and still produce results I don't think its neccessarily true. Last season Bolton might have been better to watch with Anelka and Diouf swapping about, but they fell away pretty badly in the second half of the season iirc. 433 requires by its nature total discipline from the front 6, and probably more coaching than a 442, because there are more possibilities regarding what any given member of the 6 will be required to do in any one of the hundreds of different situations that present themselves over the course of a match, whether attacking or defending.  In this sense it approaches the total football of Holland in the 70s, but the key difference there was that most of those guys had grown up playing football like that and it was pretty much instinctive to them, they weren't being coached it. That will not be the case with most of our players, for most of whom it will be pretty new (Holland also had a total virtuoso linking everyone together which helped). In a 442 everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing, who they're supposed to be picking up, so they can relax and play naturally when we're attacking. I'm probably completely wrong, but to my mind I just think 433 fundamentally requires more drilling and coaching, and more coaching probably means less off the cuff kind of play that everybody loves to see.

 

Maybe all it would take to change that would be the introduction of a creative number 10 into the system, once the other 9 players have got it down to a tee. a lot of people on here have already suggested that. However did Djorkaef and Okocha really make Bolton better to watch? That might not be a valid point as I would hope we'd go for better class footballers than those two, but it might just turn out to be a case of making him fit into the system and shackling him a bit so that yes, he does make the occasional incisive through ball, but has to play well within himself most of the time, a bit like Joe Cole at Chelsea.

 

Having said all that, I reckon it will give us a lot of success, particulary if Barton takes a liking to it, and I reckon Sam will have it working like a dream eventually.

[Guest Dan]

i don't think 4-3-3 is the best formation for the players at our disposal