Are Newcastle fans asking for too much from our central midfielders?

[James]

Looking at some of the best sides we've had in the Premiership over the years, we've seen central midfield pairings of:

 

Batty and Lee

Speed and Lee

Speed and Dyer/Jenas

 

The Batty-Lee, Speed-Lee and Speed-Jenas all had the primary objective to win the ball from the opposition or receive the ball from defence, and give the ball to a player who is able to craft something, and during our good spells, they pretty much did just that. Of course Jenas wasn't as good as he twisted and turned to often, slowing us down.

 

Of course one of the central midfielders was expected to help the attack, Lee did this well, getting forward where possible and receiving the ball further up the field from target men holding the ball up and from some ingenius wingers, and then getting a shot in on goal or playing a short cross/pass to the strikers when space became available as a consequence of the work done by our strikers and wingers. Meanwhile, Batty and Speed had rare attacking licence in open play.

 

In that sense Batty and Spped were very much the watercarriers of our team - receive the ball and then give it to someone else who can do more with the ball.

 

You never saw Batty, Lee or Speed turn the opposition midfielder, before playing an inch perfect pass through a compact defensive line, directly on to the end of a darting diagonal run by Alan Shearer. Yet that is what some people seem want to see from Newcastle's central midfielders these days.

 

Of course, we get treated to the brilliance of Xabi Alonso, Cesc Fabregas, Arteta and Scholes every week on Match of the Day. However what isn't noticed is that for most of these players, winning and retaining the ball come first. Alonso and Arteta aren't brilliant ball winners, but that is compensated for them by the rest of the midfield being built around them.

 

Lets face it, there are few central midfielders in the world who can combine the duties expected in the Premier League with consistent killer instinct.

 

We couldn't afford or attract a player with such capabilities. Of course, there are players out there who do offer consistent creativity in central midfield, but these are lightweights, and we would have had to revolve all our other players around him, and with a new manager, several new players needed etc, that was never a viable option. Hugo Viana is an example of when the thirst for extra creativity may not work out.

 

In the end, past Newcastle teams have shown that we can have a good season with two uncreative but solid and effective central midfielders with one of these players becoming an extra player in the final third at times. We need to use the ingenuity of James Milner and Charles N'Zogbia on the wings, and we need to keep the only player who can properly hold the ball up in Mark Viduka fit, as he is needed to delay the play so our attacking midfielder can join the play.

 

So do we have solid and central midfielders? In the water carrier role, we have Geremi. There are already comments from some quarters that he has been rubbish. However, my own observation of the game coupled with the statistics would suggest otherwise, and that he is a very good water carrier. Before Derby, he had been successfully retrieving the ball from our defence, our intercepting the opposition and delivering the ball consistently to players with better attacking ability. Furthermore, he does this quickly and efficiently without twisting and turning and playing down blind alleys like Scott Parker did. Because there is no attacking aspect though, and because he doesn't make Hollywood tackles, he will get unnoticed by many unfortunately, just like what happenned to Gary Speed during his time here. Geremi is just as good as Gary Speed was.

 

Nicky Butt has also generally been passing the ball around well, and winning the ball back, but perhaps hasn't been doing as well as Geremi. Suprisingly, he has been given licence to join our attacks, and unfortunately his end product isn't very good, but he certainly had been pretty handy for us until yesterday. When Barton comes back, he should be able to replace Butt and offer greater attacking threat.

 

Yesterday wasn't the best game for either player, but in defence of Geremi, our defenders were not getting the ball to him yesterday, with Steve Howard completely destroying the composure of our centre back partnership. Meanwhile Ameobi is a big strong player, but he plays like a pinball bumper, he doesn't hold the ball up. Thus Butt couldn't join the attack.

 

What is clear, in particular from the past Speed-Lee partnership, is that the same central midfield can finish 13th and 4th. The performance depends on the players around them. Our existing central midfielders all have the attributes of a central midfielder that can win games and do well in the league, we just need to sort out the players that surround them.

[johnnypd]

one of the most attacking sides in english football history played with two defensively inclined midfielders, Vieira and Gilberto. so it's certainly possible not only to play that way in a 4-4-2 but to also have an exciting and successful team. Looking at Arsenal's example - having two anchors in the middle of the park means you have to have superior movement around and in front of them. if none of the midfielders are going to break forward to link play, then one of the forwards will have to drop deep to connect the play, in that instance, it was Bergkamp, who was world class in that particular role. if the support striker is dropping deep often, then the number 9 has to try and stretch teams with pace all by himself. yet he also has to be able to cope with being isolated and holding the ball up and/or receive support from wide players who cut inside and offer options, playing almost free roles rather than playing as traditional wingers. ideally they'd also contribute with lots of goals, to compensate for the support striker who may not even reach double figures. Henry, Pires and Ljungberg performed these roles, again to world class standard. if the wingers are cutting inside, then the team can be too narrow and congested (like the Arsenal side in the immediate past) so the full-backs have to get up and support and stretch teams with direct running. Cole and Lauren were excellent at this. And to bring it back to the start, if the full-backs are constantly bombing on upfield, then there needs to be more protection given from central-midfield, hence two defensively inclined CMs. as a side-note, the introduction of Fabregas as Bergkamp's heir ruined this system for arsenal, and they've still not fully adapted to having the playmaker in midfield rather than up front.

 

applying this system to Newcastle's side, it's clear that we don't really have the players required to play around two defensive midfielders. Owen will not hold the ball up or drift out to the left like Henry, Milner is a traditional winger rather than a Pires-type, N'Zogbia is too inconsistent and immature (in a footballing sence), our full backs aren't good enough going forward and so on. Viduka is perhaps the one player who really fits into this system. furthermore, Gilberto is far better than Butt ever was, and Vieira not only is lightyears ahead of Geremi but also brings the ball forward much better. they're also both tall bastards with a burst of pace, and butt and geremi, erm, aren't.

 

also, looking at the old newcastle pairings we had, there was always one player who was more naturally inclined to attack, Lee, Jenas or Dyer, and i don't see the same out of Geremi, Butt or Faye. Even Speed was a converted winger and had some class on the ball, but i suppose the same is true for Geremi. Barton would provide this spark, but he is a very different player and then you'd have to tailor the system to accomodate an attack minded midfielder.

[Ronaldo]

Geremi is not Gary Speed and never will be, good post that aside

[Guest shaun11177]

Well in a 442 you tend to have defensive midfielder and an attacking midfielder.

I think Faye will become 1st choice as Butt is getting on a bit and isnt as mobile.

In the best teams the defensive midfielder is also a good passer of the ball, in other teams like ourselves he is more of a win it give it variety.

The attacking players must be Barton and Emre-Barton is someone who can get in the box, join the attack and passes reasonably. Emre on the other hand you wont see him in the box much but he is the better passer of the two. Which will be more effective is a wait and see.

 

[James]

Ah, you see, there is the problem.

 

We've gone from comparing Geremi-Butt to Viera-Gilberto when initial comparisons were made to Speed-Lee which was a combination that would work.

 

For me, Geremi-Barton is comparable to Speed-Lee, and if it is, provided we play the wingers and use Viduka, there is no reason why we can't do well. Not as good as Arsenal of course, but realistically, we cant get Arsenal quality players yet. Anything better in central midfield is difficult at that stage, and the only way I can see us improving is to improve the other positions, as for me, we can't really expect much more from central midfield at this stage.

[Guest teepee]

we are not asking too much imo- and i honestly think that a pairing of butt/geremi og butt/barton could be quite good if we played with two proper wingers alongside them. smith has been shite, and the setup with three battling cm's simply doesn''t work. put zoggy and milner on the flanks, leave only two of the battlers and we will improve immediately!

 

[johnnypd]

Ah, you see, there is the problem.

 

We've gone from comparing Geremi-Butt to Viera-Gilberto when initial comparisons were made to Speed-Lee which was a combination that would work.

 

For me, Geremi-Barton is comparable to Speed-Lee, and if it is, provided we play the wingers and use Viduka, there is no reason why we can't do well. Not as good as Arsenal of course, but realistically, we cant get Arsenal quality players yet. Anything better in central midfield is difficult at that stage, and the only way I can see us improving is to improve the other positions, as for me, we can't really expect much more from central midfield at this stage.

 

Arsenal is the prototype, not saying we're going to reach that level but that should be the general model. if we're playing with two midfielders of that sort. and the point i was trying to make is that by going with two DMs you have to have that bit extra in other positions as it puts more emphasis on the rest of your players to play a certain way. we don't have that capacity as a squad and i think we'd be better off spreading the attacking and defending responsibility around the players rather than concentrating it amongst certain "special" players that we don't have. also some of our players are fundamentally ill-equipped for that system, Milner, Barton and Owen for example. There'd obviously be no place for Barton in that team, Owen is useless when isolated and Milner's traditional wing play would be at odds with the rest of the attack.

 

i don't think Speed-Lee is a particularly accurate comparison either, as both were naturally attacking wide players who remodelled themselves as central midfielders - Speed as a defensive midfielder and Lee as an attacking one (even tho he grew more conservative as he aged). The same isn't true for Butt and Geremi, both are individually less adventurous and as a pairing more defensive. as i said about Barton, if you introduce him into the side, then the whole system would have to be different and we'd be talking about different things altogether. i agree that i can see it working, but then we'd probably be playing owen and viduka up front and relying on the wingers to play in a more traditional style (suiting Milner for example).

[Guest shaun11177]

There is no general model-Barca play 4123-Real Madrid 4231, AC Milan 4312-no formation is best if it was everyone would be playing it. Everything comes down to good players and balance in a team that is the key and although we dont have brilliant players we have good ones but the balance of the side has at the moment serious failings. We can only hope with the introduction of Barton and or Emre and Enrique that balance will be restored.

The key is really how we supply Owen we must get that ball in the 18 yard area as often as possible but if Sams idea is to play defensive football and hope to create a couple of chances a game which he presumes Owen might take one and we try and win every game 1-0 then we are back to the Dalglish days.

 

[Unlucky Luque]

Barton is our Lee, and i can't wait to see him play tbh...