Do you think Sam will succeed as a NUFC manager?

[Baggio]

Chelsea and Liverpool play long-ball football too btw.

 

And their fans wouldn't be happy playing that style if there was no success at the end of it either.

[Guest alex]

Chelsea and Liverpool play long-ball football too btw.

 

And their fans wouldn't be happy playing that style if there was no success at the end of it either.

I wouldn't disagree, it was to counter HTT's point that Bolton didn't play long-ball football, they played like those two. Pretty effective in all those cases too though I might add.

[Baggio]

Chelsea and Liverpool play long-ball football too btw.

 

And their fans wouldn't be happy playing that style if there was no success at the end of it either.

I wouldn't disagree, it was to counter HTT's point that Bolton didn't play long-ball football, they played like those two. Pretty effective in all those cases too though I might add.

 

I said pretty much the same a few posts up, the main difference being that Liverpool and Chelsea used attacking fullbacks and their midfielders pushed further forward, Gerrard and Lampard basically have a free role where as Nolan was a more disciplined midfielder who pushed forward more for dead balls rather than as much as he could.

 

I've no problem with this but there's no point in making out they played great football to watch because they didn't.

[Mick]

Surely succeed means to win stuff and with that I don't think he will because by the sounds of things he's looking to go after about 4 years so no I don't think he will succeed but I do think the club will be in a healthy position for the next guy.

 

I'd go with that, I don't think he will but I do think he'll leave the next manager in a good position.  I think he'd be leaving a much better situation than he found, even if he left tomorrow.

[Guest Knightrider]

I've no problem with this but there's no point in making out they played great football to watch because they didn't.

 

Which I've never claimed, you on the other hand claimed they play boring long ball shite football, which they never, not the way you describe anyway. They played some football and so will we as we have done at times this season.

[Guest Knightrider]

Re attendances, aye apologies Baggio. Don't know why I was arguing that point with you as you clearly never mentioned them. Probably a trail off from another discussion/thread coming into my post there.

[Baggio]

I've no problem with this but there's no point in making out they played great football to watch because they didn't.

 

Which I've never claimed, you on the other hand claimed they play boring long ball shite football, which they never, not the way you describe anyway. They played some football and so will we as we have done at times this season.

 

As ever you over exaggerate.

 

They did play long ball football which I found shite to watch, how is that me over exaggerating?

 

Which way have I described it that's wrong? That they used Kevin Davies to win knockdowns from long balls from Campo? Or that they were an organised team that worked hard in closing the opposition down and made it hard for them to play?

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

I've no problem with this but there's no point in making out they played great football to watch because they didn't.

 

Which I've never claimed, you on the other hand claimed they play boring long ball shite football, which they never, not the way you describe anyway. They played some football and so will we as we have done at times this season.

 

As ever you over exaggerate.

 

They did play long ball football which I found shite to watch, how is that me over exaggerating?

 

Which way have I described it that's wrong? That they used Kevin Davies to win knockdowns from long balls from Campo? Or that they were an organised team that worked hard in closing the opposition down and made it hard for them to play?

 

 

 

They didn't play long ball football just like that, though. Hence you exaggerating this. Now of course they launched it long some times (i.e. Campo to Davies on the diagonal) but then all teams do but the way you go on you'd think that's all they ever did, it wasn't even a core tactic of theirs, especially after they signed Anelka. I can live with your opinion that you found it shite to watch, personal tastes and all that, but I'm not having they were a long ball team full stop because they clearly were not and neither are Newcastle United under him/or have been.

[Guest Knightrider]

They did play long ball football and to deny that is deluded beyond belief, Allardyce even tried to defend it in his press conference here by saying other clubs get away with playing that style and the press call it a long pass, with Bolton they say it's long ball because they're jealous or words to that affect.

 

Defending his style is different to owning up to playing long ball, which he has denied time and time again anyway.

 

Being better than your boys Souness or Roeder are hardly a benchmark either, both were poor managers as the majority pointed out on here all of the way through.

 

Oh dear, not allowed to support managers these days

 

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

I've no doubt Allardyce will come in and get our current lot into shape, make them organised and hard to break down but to suggest he got Bolton playing great football is bollocks, they were an organised, workmanlike team who got stuck in and used Kevin Davies heading ability to their advantage by winning knock downs from Campo's long balls, they were hardly the Ajax team of 95.

 

Again with your over exaggerating. This doesn't surprise me though because you equate getting behind and supporting a manager equal to backing the appointment or being happy with that choice.

 

To follow suit. Bolton were hardly Wimbledon or indeed, Newcastle under Souness. Bramble to Shearer...

[Baggio]

I've no problem with this but there's no point in making out they played great football to watch because they didn't.

 

Which I've never claimed, you on the other hand claimed they play boring long ball shite football, which they never, not the way you describe anyway. They played some football and so will we as we have done at times this season.

 

As ever you over exaggerate.

 

They did play long ball football which I found shite to watch, how is that me over exaggerating?

 

Which way have I described it that's wrong? That they used Kevin Davies to win knockdowns from long balls from Campo? Or that they were an organised team that worked hard in closing the opposition down and made it hard for them to play?

 

 

 

They didn't play long ball football just like that, though. Hence you exaggerating this. Now of course they launched it long some times (i.e. Campo to Davies on the diagonal) but then all teams do but the way you go on you'd think that's all they ever did, it wasn't even a core tactic of theirs, especially after they signed Anelka. I can live with your opinion that you found it shite to watch, personal tastes and all that, but I'm not having they were a long ball team full stop because they clearly were not and neither are Newcastle United under him/or have been.

 

Signing Anelka didn't make them less of a long ball team, it just made them more affective when playing it, having players like Anelka and Diouf in the starting 11 means that not all balls have to be played onto the head of Davies, they can be played just as effectively over the top towards the corners wher either of the two mentioned can get on the end of the first because of their pace, nothing wrong with that and it's the reason why Mourinho and Rafa look to have pace in wide positions too, so that games can be stretched.

 

The one difference between the way they set up compared to Bolton was that their attacking wide men were not as dangerous in front of goal, mainly because they used their midfielders to push on more unlike at Bolton where they preferred to keep that area tight, possible because of lack of quality.

 

Btw we have played long ball this season which hasn't been affective, mainly because Viduka isn't that good in the air and there's been little pace in the team to get onto any knockdowns or knock ons that he does get his head too, a large improvement in the team on Sunday though when Martins replaced Owen and it got better when N'Zogbia pushed up later in the match.

[Baggio]

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

Yes, stupid you.

 

And the Bramble to Shearer was shite to watch too, especially as the majority of Bramble's passes didn't even get that close to Shearer anyway.

[Guest Knightrider]

So Bolton played long ball at times? Like most teams then. I'll grant you that. They were not a long ball team per se though and neither are Liverpool or Chelsea, in fact there aren't many long ball teams in operation these days.

 

Anyway I'm not too bothered about these details, over the years Bolton continuously changed their style season after season, perfecting things along the way. With Rickets it was the ball over the top (similar to Liverpool under Houllier, pack the midfield, feed the quick lone man (Owen) over the top). With Davies it was ball up, midfield support, use flanks (similar to Newcastle under Sir Bobby, with Shearer the target man). With Anelka and Diouf Bolton really started to come out of their shell, the emphasis changed from playing quick balls up to a targetman to stretching teams, keeping possession and using the flanks, with the midfielders (or Nolan) breaking into the box, ala Chelsea. With us I think we'll play a mixture of all three styles eventually, or Big Sam may surprise us. I get a great deal of hope knowing he is at least a diverse manager and isn't as stuck in his ways as he does admittedly seem, as his various Bolton styles over the year shows. One thing I do know is that we can't conclude anything with what we are seeing with his Newcastle side because a real pattern of play has yet to emerge. We are neither here nor there yet regards to a system, style etc. In short we are a bit of a mess in that sense, hence the sketchy performances. In time we'll develop a style of our own and become very consistent and most likely successful with it. Whether that will be canny on the eye will be down to personal tastes. As long as we are winning however, hopefully there won't be too many complaints.

[Guest Knightrider]

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

Yes, stupid you.

 

Care to explain?

[Baggio]

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

Yes, stupid you.

 

Care to explain?

 

I'm joking, HTT.

 

Although you claiming Roeder had earned the job after a few performances in November and backing Souness in the sale of Bellamy and the money spent weren't your finest moments.

[ChezGiven]

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

Yes, stupid you.

 

Care to explain?

 

I'm joking, HTT.

 

Although you claiming Roeder had earned the job after a few performances in November and backing Souness in the sale of Bellamy and the money spent weren't your finest moments.

 

Losing his virginity will be his finest moment.

[Guest Knightrider]

My boys? Two managers whose appointments I never backed or supported once. When in the job however I did try my best to get behind them and to support them, as a fan. Stupid me, eh.

 

Yes, stupid you.

 

Care to explain?

 

I'm joking, HTT.

 

Although you claiming Roeder had earned the job after a few performances in November and backing Souness in the sale of Bellamy and the money spent weren't your finest moments.

 

Oh. I stand by my comments about Roeder mind, in that he earned to get the full season which he got anyway. I stand by the sale of Bellamy too which had nowt to do with my opinions on Souness, but wiping his arse with the club's shirt. Water under the Tyne Bridge though.

[fredbob]

All the discussion seems to be surrounded around 2 paradoxes, whether you want your team to be successful, or you want them to play beautiful football, in my opion, i would like my team to play beautiful football, its synonomous with being successful anyway although by no means guaratueed, i can understand ppls arguments about wanting to win something whether it be ugly or not, and i dont refute that opinion.

 

For me when its all said and done football is entertainment, nothing more, nothing less, only recently has it turned into a business, but for me that takes a side step. When i watch a football match i come to be entertained, and some of my finest memories have been ones where we've achieved nothing cup wise but have played breathtaking football, these memories go ahead of 2 of the bggest days in recent nufc history in the fa cup finals.

 

It such an impossible topic because nobody is right or wrong, when SA was appointed i wasnt for him, but i realised he was exactly what this club needed, stability and as it stands he's succeding, he may not be playing the most beautful football, but at this stage we have no right to belive that we should be, people are being nostalgic and thinking we have the right to be in the top 6 playing superb football, when we dont, in the end your only as good as your last season and i think its important that we have a good season posiiton wise, getting some stability on and off the field then going for our goals next season. I think its pretty clear that this club was well on the decline and i'm more than happy to sit through turgid times providing we do reasonably well. 

 

All these people who are after the elusive cup win? If we win the league cup next year would that memory eclipse the Keegan years or SBR years? In my opinion it wouldnt. *puts on tin hat*

[greydos]

I notice you tried to convince me there HTT that Quinton Fortune is an example of SA wanting attractive technically gifted footballers? (There were other examples you said which made me laugh equally as much!!)

 

Also, SA didn't sign "2 attacking fullbacks". He signed Beye, a centre back who has been converted for a couple of years into a full back, for whom getting forward is NOT a strength, but being defensively solid, quick and athletic is. And he bought Enrique, not an attacking fullback, but nicknamed "the Bull" for his hard tackling.

 

Also, about Cacapa and Rozenhal, SA did not say that they were good because they were good passing defenders, he only recently said that Cacapa's ability to pass is incidental to his qualities, and that he's a "destroyer" not a player.

 

SA is all about being workmanlike, efficient, and effective. He analyses what seems to work best on paper, i.e. statistics about how teams concede goals, usually through not being able to concentrate for a full 90 minutes when faced with having to clear their lines from aerial bombardments, and sets about making that happen on the pitch. Hence EVERY throw in we ever get we'll have to witness Geremi try and launch it into their box. There's no excuses for that, it evinces SA' intentions perfectly

[Mr Logic]

I notice you tried to convince me there HTT that Quinton Fortune is an example of SA wanting attractive technically gifted footballers? (There were other examples you said which made me laugh equally as much!!)

 

Also, SA didn't sign "2 attacking fullbacks". He signed Beye, a centre back who has been converted for a couple of years into a full back, for whom getting forward is NOT a strength, but being defensively solid, quick and athletic is. And he bought Enrique, not an attacking fullback, but nicknamed "the Bull" for his hard tackling.

 

Also, about Cacapa and Rozenhal, SA did not say that they were good because they were good passing defenders, he only recently said that Cacapa's ability to pass is incidental to his qualities, and that he's a "destroyer" not a player.

 

SA is all about being workmanlike, efficient, and effective. He analyses what seems to work best on paper, i.e. statistics about how teams concede goals, usually through not being able to concentrate for a full 90 minutes when faced with having to clear their lines from aerial bombardments, and sets about making that happen on the pitch. Hence EVERY throw in we ever get we'll have to witness Geremi try and launch it into their box. There's no excuses for that, it evinces SA' intentions perfectly

 

Your last paragraph there echoes my concerns about him, he seems to be all about the statistics and percentage football. Any fast flowing technical stuff that gets us on the edge of our seats will not be because Sam coached it into them but merely because they have the space and inclination to do it. I fear Sam lacks imagination and as such he's rather 2 dimensional rather than 3, that said he should do better for us than many an incumbent I can think of, as long as the football doesn't bore us to death first he should get something out of it starting with some Euro-qualification.

[Guest red5928]

:giggle:I thnk sam will be a great sucess

[Guest Knightrider]

I notice you tried to convince me there HTT that Quinton Fortune is an example of SA wanting attractive technically gifted footballers? (There were other examples you said which made me laugh equally as much!!)

 

Also, SA didn't sign "2 attacking fullbacks". He signed Beye, a centre back who has been converted for a couple of years into a full back, for whom getting forward is NOT a strength, but being defensively solid, quick and athletic is. And he bought Enrique, not an attacking fullback, but nicknamed "the Bull" for his hard tackling.

 

Also, about Cacapa and Rozenhal, SA did not say that they were good because they were good passing defenders, he only recently said that Cacapa's ability to pass is incidental to his qualities, and that he's a "destroyer" not a player.

 

SA is all about being workmanlike, efficient, and effective. He analyses what seems to work best on paper, i.e. statistics about how teams concede goals, usually through not being able to concentrate for a full 90 minutes when faced with having to clear their lines from aerial bombardments, and sets about making that happen on the pitch. Hence EVERY throw in we ever get we'll have to witness Geremi try and launch it into their box. There's no excuses for that, it evinces SA' intentions perfectly

 

I used the players I did to show that for every grafter there were non grafter type players, or more flair type players, the point stands.

 

The proof is in the pudding regarding Beye and Enrique, they'll be used as attacking full-backs and I know this because that's how Big Sam likes his full-backs to be, being strong or tall is just an extension of how he sees an ideal full-back.

 

When we signed Rozenhal and Cacapa he talked about their passing abilities being a plus point which will enable us to bring the ball out of defence. Again, hardly indicative of lumping it long from the back.

 

Big Sam is all about winning football matches and by any means which will include a whole permeation of things, including passing and moving, and not just hard work and efficiency.

[Guest Knightrider]

I notice you tried to convince me there HTT that Quinton Fortune is an example of SA wanting attractive technically gifted footballers? (There were other examples you said which made me laugh equally as much!!)

 

Also, SA didn't sign "2 attacking fullbacks". He signed Beye, a centre back who has been converted for a couple of years into a full back, for whom getting forward is NOT a strength, but being defensively solid, quick and athletic is. And he bought Enrique, not an attacking fullback, but nicknamed "the Bull" for his hard tackling.

 

Also, about Cacapa and Rozenhal, SA did not say that they were good because they were good passing defenders, he only recently said that Cacapa's ability to pass is incidental to his qualities, and that he's a "destroyer" not a player.

 

SA is all about being workmanlike, efficient, and effective. He analyses what seems to work best on paper, i.e. statistics about how teams concede goals, usually through not being able to concentrate for a full 90 minutes when faced with having to clear their lines from aerial bombardments, and sets about making that happen on the pitch. Hence EVERY throw in we ever get we'll have to witness Geremi try and launch it into their box. There's no excuses for that, it evinces SA' intentions perfectly

 

Your last paragraph there echoes my concerns about him, he seems to be all about the statistics and percentage football. Any fast flowing technical stuff that gets us on the edge of our seats will not be because Sam coached it into them but merely because they have the space and inclination to do it. I fear Sam lacks imagination and as such he's rather 2 dimensional rather than 3, that said he should do better for us than many an incumbent I can think of, as long as the football doesn't bore us to death first he should get something out of it starting with some Euro-qualification.

 

Fear not because statistically a team will score more goals through midfield and the flanks than aimless long balls punted downfield from the back. Statistically teams will win back possession more by way of pressing and not kicking lumps out of teams. Statistically the teams that have more success create more chances and obviously put more away. How that gets wrapped up and presented to us lot as fans is irrelevant or should be. Indeed it will change by the game. One week we'll win by playing good football, the next by set pieces or whatever.

 

We're in good company though because outside of Arsenal and Man Utd, with maybe Spurs and West Ham, that's how most teams play. Although West Ham played lots of long balls to Ashton at the weekend and Spurs do likewise to Berbatov so...

[Guest MaetihS]

Cant blame Sam for playing the long ball as we do not have enough quality to pass the ball around. 

[merlin]

The thing that matters most is not 'attractive' football, but EFFECTIVE football.

Many people remember Gordon Lee badly for his sale of Macdonald to Arsenal, BUT - he wanted to spend that money(and a bit more)on replacing Supermac, but the Board wouldn't back him to that extent.

 

HOWEVER - the season before Macdonald left(75-76)Lee had just taken over ; he changed the style of play, bringing in Gowling, moving Nulty into the midfield box-to-box role, selling Hibbitt and using Tommy Craig as left midfielder, with Cassidy central.

We had 2 excellent young full-backs in those days(Nattrass & Kennedy),but it all took a while to gel - I remember a game just before Christmas against Ipswich, and everyone thought it was dreadful - very disjointed..

 

Suddenly, after Christmas , we clicked ; Hit Everton for 5 and it should have been 7,Coventry for 5 in the FA Cup,beat Spurs over a 2-legged LC Semi Final, had 3 great games with Bolton in the 5th round of the FA(including a certain young Sam Allardyce at CH !!)before putting them out WITHOUT Supermac in the side,and lost, very narrowly, to an excellent Man City side at Wembley after half our team went down with the Flu bug before the game.

 

We were playing fast, EFFECTIVE football and scoring lots of goals, even though people weren't too convinced ; they were even less convinced when we sold Macdonald in the summer and yet went on to finish in a UEFA Cup place the following season...

Lee went to Everton in Jan 77, after deciding the board were not ambitious enough, and after Dinnis took over fully, we were relegated in 77-78.

 

We do not have as talented a squad in midield or up front now as we did in 75-76, with Mickey Burns, Gowling and Macdonald all scoring regulary - Tommy Craig, Nulty and Cassidy all got goals from midfield, but our defence today is much tighter in the middle(we had that walking disaster Glen Keeley as a CH..!).

 

The point is that BSA is starting to impose a new style on the side, just as Lee did, but he has less creative ability to work with - whether he changes that in the next 9 months will determine how successful he will be as NUFC manager.

[Cronky]

Cant blame Sam for playing the long ball as we do not have enough quality to pass the ball around. 

 

That's close to the ugly truth. I don't think that Allardyce encourages the long ball, but our players end up resorting to it. Hopefully that will change when we get Barton back and the team develops a bit more confidence in one another.