The Lge Cup: 'Blooding Reserve Team Youngsters' vs 'a genuine crack at the cup'

[sicsfingeredmong]

A difference in Cup Priorities: Newcastle United & Arsenal.

 

Arsenal primarily have been lambasted after fielding teams with a predominant youth selection policy in mind.

 

The Gunners have bigger fish to cook, namely the Champions' League. But for Wenger the Mickey Mouse Cup, which is the League Cup, has always been an important nurturing ground or 'blooding point' for his impressive youngsters - those who have the physical and technical attributes needed to make the step up from reserve to first team football.

 

A few years back, in the later stages of the Mickey Mouse Cup, they controversially fielded just about their entire Reserve team against Boro. They copped a flogging from Boro in the second leg, but after the drawn first leg and with a spot in the next round Wenger never deviated from the club selecton policy re: The Mickey Mouse Cup. A 'cup dunking' it was, but the experience would ultimately hold those kids in good stead ie. Fabregas and i think Van Persie was also in that line-up.

 

In our case, over a similar timeframe, the emphasis has been on 'winning a cup' and our selection policy has matched this idealogy accordingly. Fine talents such as Richard Offiong, who had big wraps on him at England U17 level, and now young Lua Lua find themselves not getting a decent look, or 'blooding opportunity', at the first team when the situation arises and in the current climate, this is pertinant to young Lua Lua who we've heard alot of good things about over the past 12 months or so. I'd rather see Ameobi's spot - a player who is really on the cusp ability-wise.... which is no good for a team which has been a mid-table club for the past 3 seasons - go to a youngster whose athleticism and technique might serve them well as an impact player/pinch hitter to be used off the bench in the league. However give the kids, ala the Lua Luas, a full crack in the League Cup on the basis that it is indicator of what - if there is any - ability there is to be moulded.

 

 

This selection policy in the league cup even when the first team has been shadowed by a hectic European schedule, where we have preferred the experienced first eleven over the youth team, mirrors the naive rubbish along the lines of 'the fans would rather see us win a cup rather than finish top 4 in the league or thereabouts' spouted by past club stalwarts, those influential figures being members of the previous board and one notable club captain.

 

I read an interview, concerning Offiong, a couple of years back whose previous second division manager stated that he had the ability but he lacked the motivation and the spirit go anywhere. Obviously the motivation issue wasn't a presenting problem while the very same player in question progressed through the youth ranks at International/England level. I guess rotting in the reserves, with a feeling of 'going nowhere fast', amidst a scattergun-like selection policy - as opposed to Arsenal's player guiding ethics - has only seen Ameobi and Taylor emerge can have that kind of draining effect on a promising up & comer in the previous mold of say Offiong, and now possibly Lua Lua not too far down the track.

 

I hope a kid in the mould primarly of Lua Lua doesn't travel down the route now being encountered by Offiong ie. once viewed as being technically and athletically promising only to have their spirit leached out of them over time, before ultimately landing in some god forsaken league in North Africa.

 

Talented kids come and go, some fall by the wayside. For every Eboue there's an Allardiere, or someone who doesn't quite make it over the course of the trip. But at least at Arsenal, re: the Mickey Mouse Cup, they're given ample opportunity during their odyssey to show the man in charge that 'at least they might just make it'. Although it's tough ask in order to break into that Arsenal First Sixteen, it's all about giving them a glimmer of hope.

 

In order for our club to progress, or to be more specific 'to truly solidify itself as a top 4 or six club, i've always maintained that the current manager had to change our on-field and off-field footballing cultures. There has been little change on the field re:style of play although i'll give Big Sam time to get it right. Unlike the Scottish b****** he has set about the task of building a team, and the following  transfer windows depending on how far the current board is prepared to back him - ie. the eradication of the "sell before we buy" pattern which emerged over the course of the Summer - will give a clearer indication as to how he'll apply the finshing touches of varnish. But the football on offer has to folllow suit, at the moment it's very much 'square pegs, round holes' stuff. The hoof it up the park approach is at odds with what is a bloody useful back four, as a single ball-playing unit that is.

 

Part of the off-field process relates to developing the youngsters in the reserves. Allardyce, as Wenger has, needs to strike an appropriate balance with regards to selection policy which will ultimatley enable those with the appropriate ability to shine through. The Mickey Mouse Cup has become a poison chalice for this club, a competition often blighted by a full strength first eleven which has acquired an unhealthy habit of delivering consistently half-arsed performances. It's time to hand the baton over to the youngsters on a full time basis. Throw them in the deep end, those with more natural/raw ability will stand out from the rest.

 

I no longer want to see the continuation of this 'cup obsession' which imo has come at the expense not developing the previous Offiongs/youngsters, and possibly the Lua Luas of the current reserve team set-up, who have not had a genuine crack at the big time before they've ultimatley fallen through the cracks into relative obscurity........ even if it's odds with the 'result-driven' mantra - re: the Cups - previously spouted off by one particular club stalwart who currently adorns himself on many a supporters/'bairns who have only idolised one player' bedroom walls.

 

 

 

 

[Martin Lol]

The fact that Offiong is at Hamilton Accies rather suggests that although he may have had promise as a youngster, he never progressed.  That isn't necessarily a problem with the coaching setup, more often than not there isn't the ability at the necessary level needed to cut it at Premier League level.  A look at the England u20 squad of 2 years ago shows how many can make a decent living from football without being capable in the top flight:

 

Gary Borrowdale                Crystal Palace

Gary Cahill                          Aston Villa

Richard Chaplow                West Bromwich Albion

Martin Cranie                    Southampton

Scott Flinders                    Barnsley

Danny Graham                  Middlesbrough

Ian Henderson                  Norwich City

Phil Ifil                                Millwall (on loan from Tottenham Hotspur)

Dexter Blackstock              Southampton

Grant Leabitter                  Rotherham United (on loan from Sunderland)

Neil Kilkenny                      Birmingham City

Lee Croft                          Manchester City

David Martin                      MK Dons

James Morrison                Middlesbrough

Matthew Bates                Middlesbrough

David Raven                    Liverpool

Ryan Smith                      Arsenal

Will Hoskins                      Rotherham United

 

 

The reason why Arsenal can keep producing youngsters in the Carling Cup is the simple fact that they have more high quality youngsters than any other team and the competition to succeed is far greater.  In the current England u16 and u17 squads Newcastle have just one player (Ryan Donaldson), Spurs have 2.  Arsenal have 6.  When you consider that the best of Arsenal's youngsters generally come from France/Spain etc it is hardly surprising that the youngsters can go into the Carling Cup and dispose of Liverpool, Everton, Spurs and Newcastle just since the start of last season.

 

If the young Lua Lua fails to make the grade, I would be fairly certain that the reason has been not being up to the required standard, not that the coaching has been wrong.

 

 

 

[sicsfingeredmong]

But some those Lge Cup squads, which Arsenal have fielded in previous years amidst their 'youth policy' have been battered in the early rounds, and at the later stages of the competition. I cited the Middlesborough tie as an example, and Wenger as borne the brunt of the criticism especially after that loss to Middlesborough. You mention the current Arsenal Lge Cup squad, but this is the end result of say 2-3 years of outstanding recruiting - and there is an element of luck, even with their extensive scouting net - which has seen Wenger unearth a generation of footballers which will serve Arsenal for the next decade, providing they can hold onto them of course. Even in Arsenal's case over the years there has been a 'hit & miss', a trial and error element behind their cup expeditions. At least the likes of Alladiere, based on your reasoning that he wasn't ultimately good enough for standard set by the club, were given ample opportunity to prove their worth with the League Cup being the primary platform given to impress the heirachy. Whereas we've got/had kids, as those previously mentioned, who at the time have been seen to possess more natural/raw ability than say a Peter Ramage yet there fate has been that of rotting in the reserves, while the established first team in many instances puts in a half-arsed effort in the League Cup.

 

There is a difference in ability, with regards to our respective set-ups, it largely has to do with the talent pool from which Wenger draws them from as you've previously stated. But in all honesty when we do unearth somebody like Lua Lua - ie. the one currently in the reserve set-up - who according to reports has the speed and athleticism coupled with a high skill level which makes him stand out from the others in our current set-up i'd rather see that particular kid have a genuine crack at the whip, in preference to guys like Ameobi who like Alladiere in Arsenal's case was given ample chances to impress but in the end was moved on in order to make way for the ones, or very few in our case, who stand out from the new batch.

 

I was going to put the following in the original post but the job description at Newcastle United for the juniors, for those in the Academy who have more ability than most and i've drummed up a couple of examples, reads more like "win a Junior Cup, while at the same time we offer an apprenticeship that will prepare you for life in the lower divisions.... or in some other bloody football outpost". The likes of Ramage, Ameobi and Taylor - and the former two have ability that should've in our case & would've been questioned from the outset in Arsenal's system - have all been handed their first team chance amidst a plethora of injuries in the first team. 

 

At Arsenal they sort 'the genuine gems' from the 'mistakes' very early on, and they build accordingly and much of that building, coupled with passing-on 'the misses', comes as a result of those indicator matches being the league cup ties. If we cop a few floggings, or early exits, in the League Cup then so be it. We simply expand our search net and upgrade to a more expansive talent pool as Arsenal have and always done.

[sicsfingeredmong]

The fact that Offiong is at Hamilton Accies rather suggests that although he may have had promise as a youngster, he never progressed. 

 

 

 

But he never received a genuine crack, with the League Cup being the indicator i speak of, as opposed to Allidiere and others at Arsenal who would also fit that mould.

[Decky]

Can anyone sum those long posts up with a few pictures so i know whats going on?

[sicsfingeredmong]

Can anyone sum those long posts up with a few pictures so i know whats going on?

 

Simply ask the Moderators to delete the thread in that case, it will most likely die a very quick death anyway.

 

 

 

 

[James]

Arsenal can get away with it based on not only their excellent scouting system finding the right players, but also because every year, they have a decent shot at three other competitions.

 

You are right though about the quality of reserve and youth games being very poor, providing no real motivation orexperience for the younger players.

 

I suggested another solution to this problem several months ago:

 

Today, there is no reason why we should limit our reserve youth games to fixtures against the amateurs of Newcastle Blue Star. Travel is cheap, and we could take our players off to anywhere in Europe.

 

What would be good is if the domestic reserve and youth leagues were replaced with leagues formed from the best setups from England/Scotland/France/Spain/Holland/Italy/Germany.

 

Initially, each division is determined from the best three teams from each country in terms of training facilities, quality of coaches, number of youth internationals BUT NOT the success or wealth of the first team. Subsequent promotions and relegations are then determined by the best and worst from each country in the league, rather than the teams at the top and bottom of the league.

[Martin Lol]

But some those Lge Cup squads, which Arsenal have fielded in previous years amidst their 'youth policy' have been battered in the early rounds, and at the later stages of the competition. I cited the Middlesborough tie as an example, and Wenger as borne the brunt of the criticism especially after that loss to Middlesborough. You mention the current Arsenal Lge Cup squad, but this is the end result of say 2-3 years of outstanding recruiting - and there is an element of luck, even with their extensive scouting net - which has seen Wenger unearth a generation of footballers which will serve Arsenal for the next decade, providing they can hold onto them of course. Even in Arsenal's case over the years there has been a 'hit & miss', a trial and error element behind their cup expeditions. At least the likes of Alladiere, based on your reasoning that he wasn't ultimately good enough for standard set by the club, were given ample opportunity to prove their worth with the League Cup being the primary platform given to impress the heirachy. Whereas we've got/had kids, as those previously mentioned, who at the time have been seen to possess more natural/raw ability than say a Peter Ramage yet there fate has been that of rotting in the reserves, while the established first team in many instances puts in a half-arsed effort in the League Cup.

 

There is a difference in ability, with regards to our respective set-ups, it largely has to do with the talent pool from which Wenger draws them from as you've previously stated. But in all honesty when we do unearth somebody like Lua Lua - ie. the one currently in the reserve set-up - who according to reports has the speed and athleticism coupled with a high skill level which makes him stand out from the others in our current set-up i'd rather see that particular kid have a genuine crack at the whip, in preference to guys like Ameobi who like Alladiere in Arsenal's case was given ample chances to impress but in the end was moved on in order to make way for the ones, or very few in our case, who stand out from the new batch.

 

I was going to put the following in the original post but the job description at Newcastle United for the juniors, for those in the Academy who have more ability than most and i've drummed up a couple of examples, reads more like "win a Junior Cup, while at the same time we offer an apprenticeship that will prepare you for life in the lower divisions.... or in some other bloody football outpost". The likes of Ramage, Ameobi and Taylor - and the former two have ability that should've in our case & would've been questioned from the outset in Arsenal's system - have all been handed their first team chance amidst a plethora of injuries in the first team. 

 

At Arsenal they sort 'the genuine gems' from the 'mistakes' very early on, and they build accordingly and much of that building, coupled with passing-on 'the misses', comes as a result of those indicator matches being the league cup ties. If we cop a few floggings, or early exits, in the League Cup then so be it. We simply expand our search net and upgrade to a more expansive talent pool as Arsenal have and always done.

 

Sure, Arsenal have suffered setbacks in some results but I wouldn't see that as a failure of their adopted system.  Almost all of my scum mates look at the Carling Cup as being a slightly more senior version of the FA Youth Cup, they expect to see their kids thrown in to see whether they sink or swim.  If they fail, there will be another promising batch coming through to put in the following season.  It is true they do give their kids a fair chance to show their abilities at that level but, say, for example, Alladiere, as you mentioned him, was good enough to be sold for £3m although not good enough for Arsenal.  Patrice Muamba is now in the England u21 squad having moved on to Birmingham, Seb Larsson also went to Brum, Bentley to Blackburn via Norwich, Sidwell to Chelsea via Reading.  That is the difference between Arsenal and every other team in the Premier League, they sell the kids who don't come up to their standard whilst everyone else usually simply releases them to clubs in lower divisions.

 

I would dispute that this has occurred in just the past 3/4 years, historically they have always produced more than decent players, even Dickov and Andy Cole started their footballing lives at Highbury.  Maybe the more worrying thing is that when I saw their reserves against Spurs a week or so ago, they turned out basically their Academy team and were very respectable against our development squad who were unbeaten at that time.  The squads were:

 

Spurs: Forecast, Riley, Hughton, Livermore, Mills, Archibald-Henville, Barcham, Maghoma, Pekhart, Dawkins, Hutton (Obika, 60). Subs: Dalton, C Butcher, Berchiche, Hutchin.

 

Arsenal: Mannone (Szczesny, 46), Ogogo, Steer, Dunne, Hoyte, Rodgers, Barazite, Thomas, Van Den Berg (Eastmond, 63), Merida Perez, Watt. Subs: Cruise, Eastmond, Ayling.

 

 

I would think 1 or 2 Spurs players could feature for the Spurs first team in time with another 4/5 being good for the Championship.  For Arsenal, of those that played, I would say 4 or 5 would be good enough for the Premiership (though not necessarily Arsenal) and there wasn't one that didn't  look capable of playing at Championship level in the future.

[Martin Lol]

Arsenal can get away with it based on not only their excellent scouting system finding the right players, but also because every year, they have a decent shot at three other competitions.

 

You are right though about the quality of reserve and youth games being very poor, providing no real motivation orexperience for the younger players.

 

I suggested another solution to this problem several months ago:

 

Today, there is no reason why we should limit our reserve youth games to fixtures against the amateurs of Newcastle Blue Star. Travel is cheap, and we could take our players off to anywhere in Europe.

 

What would be good is if the domestic reserve and youth leagues were replaced with leagues formed from the best setups from England/Scotland/France/Spain/Holland/Italy/Germany.

 

Initially, each division is determined from the best three teams from each country in terms of training facilities, quality of coaches, number of youth internationals BUT NOT the success or wealth of the first team. Subsequent promotions and relegations are then determined by the best and worst from each country in the league, rather than the teams at the top and bottom of the league.

 

The systems in Holland, France and Portugal produce plenty of able talented players and I doubt they would want their production lines damaged by taking on board the best of the rest from England.  I think the English obsession with leagues/success at Academy level contributes to the failure to get players to progress through to the first team.  The obsession should be centred around ability and technique. 

 

There is no logic in having promotion and relegation at youth levels as you suggested.  A good bunch of kids get prmotion to be replaced by a less talented bunch at that age group.  They get well beaten each week and their progress is seriously damaged because of it.  In Holland the kids don't even play on full sized pitches until they are about 14, up to that stage it is all about ball control, technique, etc.

[Guest Dev]

I reckon our reserves vs Arsenals reserves in the last league tie would have ended up not so much a 'blooding' of talent as a 'slaughtering.'

[Guest BigSamsBarmyArmy]

The fact that Offiong is at Hamilton Accies rather suggests that although he may have had promise as a youngster, he never progressed.  That isn't necessarily a problem with the coaching setup, more often than not there isn't the ability at the necessary level needed to cut it at Premier League level.  A look at the England u20 squad of 2 years ago shows how many can make a decent living from football without being capable in the top flight:

 

Gary Borrowdale                Crystal Palace

Gary Cahill                          Aston Villa

Richard Chaplow                West Bromwich Albion

Martin Cranie                    Southampton

Scott Flinders                    Barnsley

Danny Graham                  Middlesbrough

Ian Henderson                  Norwich City

Phil Ifil                                Millwall (on loan from Tottenham Hotspur)

Dexter Blackstock              Southampton

Grant Leabitter                  Rotherham United (on loan from Sunderland)

Neil Kilkenny                      Birmingham City

Lee Croft                          Manchester City

David Martin                      MK Dons

James Morrison                Middlesbrough

Matthew Bates                Middlesbrough

David Raven                    Liverpool

Ryan Smith                      Arsenal

Will Hoskins                      Rotherham United

 

 

The reason why Arsenal can keep producing youngsters in the Carling Cup is the simple fact that they have more high quality youngsters than any other team and the competition to succeed is far greater.  In the current England u16 and u17 squads Newcastle have just one player (Ryan Donaldson), Spurs have 2.  Arsenal have 6.  When you consider that the best of Arsenal's youngsters generally come from France/Spain etc it is hardly surprising that the youngsters can go into the Carling Cup and dispose of Liverpool, Everton, Spurs and Newcastle just since the start of last season.

 

If the young Lua Lua fails to make the grade, I would be fairly certain that the reason has been not being up to the required standard, not that the coaching has been wrong.

 

 

 

 

Very good post.

[Guest johnnyappleseed]

Arsenal can get away with it based on not only their excellent scouting system finding the right players, but also because every year, they have a decent shot at three other competitions.

 

You are right though about the quality of reserve and youth games being very poor, providing no real motivation orexperience for the younger players.

 

I suggested another solution to this problem several months ago:

 

Today, there is no reason why we should limit our reserve youth games to fixtures against the amateurs of Newcastle Blue Star. Travel is cheap, and we could take our players off to anywhere in Europe.

 

What would be good is if the domestic reserve and youth leagues were replaced with leagues formed from the best setups from England/Scotland/France/Spain/Holland/Italy/Germany.

 

Initially, each division is determined from the best three teams from each country in terms of training facilities, quality of coaches, number of youth internationals BUT NOT the success or wealth of the first team. Subsequent promotions and relegations are then determined by the best and worst from each country in the league, rather than the teams at the top and bottom of the league.

 

The systems in Holland, France and Portugal produce plenty of able talented players and I doubt they would want their production lines damaged by taking on board the best of the rest from England.  I think the English obsession with leagues/success at Academy level contributes to the failure to get players to progress through to the first team.  The obsession should be centred around ability and technique. 

 

There is no logic in having promotion and relegation at youth levels as you suggested.  A good bunch of kids get prmotion to be replaced by a less talented bunch at that age group.  They get well beaten each week and their progress is seriously damaged because of it.  In Holland the kids don't even play on full sized pitches until they are about 14, up to that stage it is all about ball control, technique, etc.

I'm glad you mentioned that because that's one of the major things I noticed about Arsenal's youth setup. Yes they are winning now, but it doesn't seem like winning is the priority. Their U16s and U18s play reserves football. And the guys who would normally play reserves football at any other club actually get games in the Carling Cup and FA Cup. Last season their reserves team made up of mostly players from the FA Youth Cup team (except for the very old keeper Poom who they got rid of so that he could be replaced currently with a 19 year old and his 17 year old backup) and they were losing left and right. Their coaches didn't care just kept saying that these 16 and 17 year olds who were getting tonked by older and stronger players would be better for it. This season their reserves team is acquitting themselves much better even though they are still younger than everyone else and the U18s/16s are still excellent.

[sparta]

good post! however we dont have the same system as arsenal, i think we at least should try out a couple of them!

im not saying we should barge in and trow our entire reserve team into the matches as that as well could destroy theyr motivation!

but why not try a couple of them? three/two or even one at the cup games!

never seem to happen with our team!

go on big sam! make some magic!

[Mr. Snrub]

The League Cup should be scrapped.

[Martin Lol]

good post! however we dont have the same system as arsenal, i think we at least should try out a couple of them!

im not saying we should barge in and trow our entire reserve team into the matches as that as well could destroy theyr motivation!

but why not try a couple of them? three/two or even one at the cup games!

never seem to happen with our team!

go on big sam! make some magic!

 

I wouldn't put any player into the first team, irrespective of the competition, unless I thought he had the ability to cope with being at that level.  Edgar got his opportunity as did Ramage and Taylor before him, but I think it would be foolhardy to put a youngster in before he was ready, fans aren't the most considerate if a player starts playing poorly.  Arsenal can get away with it because their fans are extremely tolerant with their youngsters coming through, the players are more technically gifted and 7 or 8 all going together in the Carling Cup keeps the team spirit built up in the Academy and reserves.

 

Even then, development can be speeded up by putting players out on long term loan, Johan Djourou, Kerrea Gilbert at Southend and Carlos Vela at Osasuna are three that readily come to mind.

 

 

[Martin Lol]

Arsenal can get away with it based on not only their excellent scouting system finding the right players, but also because every year, they have a decent shot at three other competitions.

 

You are right though about the quality of reserve and youth games being very poor, providing no real motivation orexperience for the younger players.

 

I suggested another solution to this problem several months ago:

 

Today, there is no reason why we should limit our reserve youth games to fixtures against the amateurs of Newcastle Blue Star. Travel is cheap, and we could take our players off to anywhere in Europe.

 

What would be good is if the domestic reserve and youth leagues were replaced with leagues formed from the best setups from England/Scotland/France/Spain/Holland/Italy/Germany.

 

Initially, each division is determined from the best three teams from each country in terms of training facilities, quality of coaches, number of youth internationals BUT NOT the success or wealth of the first team. Subsequent promotions and relegations are then determined by the best and worst from each country in the league, rather than the teams at the top and bottom of the league.

 

The systems in Holland, France and Portugal produce plenty of able talented players and I doubt they would want their production lines damaged by taking on board the best of the rest from England.  I think the English obsession with leagues/success at Academy level contributes to the failure to get players to progress through to the first team.  The obsession should be centred around ability and technique. 

 

There is no logic in having promotion and relegation at youth levels as you suggested.  A good bunch of kids get prmotion to be replaced by a less talented bunch at that age group.  They get well beaten each week and their progress is seriously damaged because of it.  In Holland the kids don't even play on full sized pitches until they are about 14, up to that stage it is all about ball control, technique, etc.

I'm glad you mentioned that because that's one of the major things I noticed about Arsenal's youth setup. Yes they are winning now, but it doesn't seem like winning is the priority. Their U16s and U18s play reserves football. And the guys who would normally play reserves football at any other club actually get games in the Carling Cup and FA Cup. Last season their reserves team made up of mostly players from the FA Youth Cup team (except for the very old keeper Poom who they got rid of so that he could be replaced currently with a 19 year old and his 17 year old backup) and they were losing left and right. Their coaches didn't care just kept saying that these 16 and 17 year olds who were getting tonked by older and stronger players would be better for it. This season their reserves team is acquitting themselves much better even though they are still younger than everyone else and the U18s/16s are still excellent.

 

Spot on!

 

It also helps when their coach is Liam Brady who was perhaps the most naturally talented midfielder I've seen, on a par with Hoddle, better than Gazza (imho).

[Guest johnnyappleseed]

fresh quotes from Neil Banfield after arsenals win over chelsea last night.

 

http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=482718&lid=NewsHeadline&Title=Banfield:+%27It+helps+our+development%27

"We always set out to win the league, but at the same time use the league as an extra-development team for perhaps a step into the Carling Cup and the first-team squad hopefully from there. As a professional, when you put that shirt on you want to win and we want to win this league. It would be great to do so, but it is important that we keep our eye on the bigger picture which is the development of our young players."

[sparta]

good post! however we dont have the same system as arsenal, i think we at least should try out a couple of them!

im not saying we should barge in and trow our entire reserve team into the matches as that as well could destroy theyr motivation!

but why not try a couple of them? three/two or even one at the cup games!

never seem to happen with our team!

go on big sam! make some magic!

 

I wouldn't put any player into the first team, irrespective of the competition, unless I thought he had the ability to cope with being at that level.  Edgar got his opportunity as did Ramage and Taylor before him, but I think it would be foolhardy to put a youngster in before he was ready, fans aren't the most considerate if a player starts playing poorly.  Arsenal can get away with it because their fans are extremely tolerant with their youngsters coming through, the players are more technically gifted and 7 or 8 all going together in the Carling Cup keeps the team spirit built up in the Academy and reserves.

 

Even then, development can be speeded up by putting players out on long term loan, Johan Djourou, Kerrea Gilbert at Southend and Carlos Vela at Osasuna are three that readily come to mind.

 

 

 

yes. very true!

however we have some youngsters who already have had theyr debuts in friendly matches!

why should it hurt them so much to be tryed out in a game?

i acually belive that troisi could do some better stuff than milner at certain areas! so im still hoping he will get a match or two this season

[Martin Lol]

good post! however we dont have the same system as arsenal, i think we at least should try out a couple of them!

im not saying we should barge in and trow our entire reserve team into the matches as that as well could destroy theyr motivation!

but why not try a couple of them? three/two or even one at the cup games!

never seem to happen with our team!

go on big sam! make some magic!

 

I wouldn't put any player into the first team, irrespective of the competition, unless I thought he had the ability to cope with being at that level.  Edgar got his opportunity as did Ramage and Taylor before him, but I think it would be foolhardy to put a youngster in before he was ready, fans aren't the most considerate if a player starts playing poorly.  Arsenal can get away with it because their fans are extremely tolerant with their youngsters coming through, the players are more technically gifted and 7 or 8 all going together in the Carling Cup keeps the team spirit built up in the Academy and reserves.

 

Even then, development can be speeded up by putting players out on long term loan, Johan Djourou, Kerrea Gilbert at Southend and Carlos Vela at Osasuna are three that readily come to mind.

 

 

 

yes. very true!

however we have some youngsters who already have had theyr debuts in friendly matches!

why should it hurt them so much to be tryed out in a game?

i acually belive that troisi could do some better stuff than milner at certain areas! so im still hoping he will get a match or two this season

 

Spurs have had players who promised a bit, got into the first team or on the bench, then spiralled downwards to depart soon after.  Dean Marney as an attacking MF scored 2 against Everton, made the England u21 squad, then a season long loan to Norwich followed by a permantent move to Hull.  Mark Yeates played a couple of times before going on loan to Swindon, Colchester and Leicester before making the move to Colchester permanent.  I could mention Phil Ifil, Jamie Slabber, Lee Barnard and Jamie O'Hara who have all  gone down (or are going down) a similar route.

 

I can't recall that I've seen Troisi play anywhere so I don't know, but I would be staggered if he could offer something better than Milner with his 5years experience, his u21 credentials and not ignoring the fact that he must now be very close to making the full England squad.

[sparta]

good post! however we dont have the same system as arsenal, i think we at least should try out a couple of them!

im not saying we should barge in and trow our entire reserve team into the matches as that as well could destroy theyr motivation!

but why not try a couple of them? three/two or even one at the cup games!

never seem to happen with our team!

go on big sam! make some magic!

 

 

I wouldn't put any player into the first team, irrespective of the competition, unless I thought he had the ability to cope with being at that level.  Edgar got his opportunity as did Ramage and Taylor before him, but I think it would be foolhardy to put a youngster in before he was ready, fans aren't the most considerate if a player starts playing poorly.  Arsenal can get away with it because their fans are extremely tolerant with their youngsters coming through, the players are more technically gifted and 7 or 8 all going together in the Carling Cup keeps the team spirit built up in the Academy and reserves.

 

Even then, development can be speeded up by putting players out on long term loan, Johan Djourou, Kerrea Gilbert at Southend and Carlos Vela at Osasuna are three that readily come to mind.

 

 

 

yes. very true!

however we have some youngsters who already have had theyr debuts in friendly matches!

why should it hurt them so much to be tryed out in a game?

i acually belive that troisi could do some better stuff than milner at certain areas! so im still hoping he will get a match or two this season

 

Spurs have had players who promised a bit, got into the first team or on the bench, then spiralled downwards to depart soon after.  Dean Marney as an attacking MF scored 2 against Everton, made the England u21 squad, then a season long loan to Norwich followed by a permantent move to Hull.  Mark Yeates played a couple of times before going on loan to Swindon, Colchester and Leicester before making the move to Colchester permanent.  I could mention Phil Ifil, Jamie Slabber, Lee Barnard and Jamie O'Hara who have all  gone down (or are going down) a similar route.

 

I can't recall that I've seen Troisi play anywhere so I don't know, but I would be staggered if he could offer something better than Milner with his 5years experience, his u21 credentials and not ignoring the fact that he must now be very close to making the full England squad.

 

if milner make the full england squad, i would be really surprised. theres a lot of players in the pecking order thats much better than him, depending on how you rate milner! i would almost, and i repeat almost, say jermaine jenas has at times more to offer (omg cant belive im saying this)

well, i could surely name several players who have progressed in this manner as well as you can name players who have failed after it, take rooney at everton as an class example, debut at age 16 and 250 days or so??

 

players will either progress or stall at some point, thats for sure, and i think there is very little managers can do to prevent this, except not putting them in until they are ready!

however thats also very hard to know... this is for the manager, player, and staff to discuss of course! but there cant be harm done to a player by playing 10 minutes in a game we are 3-0 up, either in a league or a cup game? cant see that as an horrified event that would harm the players progress... remember a lot of players get theyr motivation from playing! and to have played only 10/5/2 or even 1 minute at st.james at full house could be quite exiting, i would guess

 

surely milner has lots of more things to offer than troisi, but he also did a very early debut in the age of 16 as well (i even think he broke rooneys early youngster goal thingy?)

the thing is, early debuts are not as bad as people make it out to be, but pressure of playing lots of games, and get very high expectations (see jenas again) at that age can be!

so why not give it a go?