Should Allardyce have been given/spent more in the summer?

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

to be fair he was sold on deadline day, late on deadline day, after he'd decided to stay because no london clubs were interested (until dyer broke his leg, the cunt). there really was not time, although i think the fact both smith and dyer were bought/sold at the same time, for the same fee, may just be a coincidence. we did seem content to keep dyer after buying smith when they wouldn't meet our extra mill.

 

Solano and Dyer moving had been on the horizon for some time, were YOU surprised when they both left ?

 

My point is buying Smith is irrelevant to the sale of Dyer and Solano. Who decided we could do without no pace and creativity in midfield and why ?

 

 

[Parky]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

To take on your points and jpd, speccy and ohml...Quality and league position attracts further quality as ambition and potential can be sold to a target acqusition. As Neef also says and you've said frequently the dyer/solano axis ie the attack on the right side wether it be pace or the guile of Solano hasn't been addressed and this is a gigantic mistake which might cost us a Euro spot this year and the kudos which would have helped to attract better players in Jan and the summer. Someone has fucked up royally.

 

How much more attractive Man C already look for players we will be competing to sign and they were rubbish last year.

 

 

[Baggio]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what they want". 

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

[Baggio]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what the want".

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what, you answer my question and I'll happily answer yours.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

[Parky]

But Baggy it seems proposterous to view Solano as a right back don't you think?

[Guest optimistic nit]

how many more good threads will we continue to lose until you two cease this endless vendetta.

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

To take on your points and jpd, speccy and ohml...Quality and league position attracts further quality as ambition and potential can be sold to a target acqusition. As Neef also says and you've said frequently the dyer/solano axis ie the attack on the right side wether it be pace or the guile of Solano hasn't been addressed and this is a gigantic mistake which might cost us a Euro spot this year and the kudos which would have helped to attract better players in Jan and the summer. Someone has fucked up royally.

 

How much more attractive Man C already look for players we will be competing to sign and they were rubbish last year.

 

 

precisely.

 

 

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what the want".

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what, you answer my question and I'll happily answer yours.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

I agree with Parkys comment.Solano playing right back still left us short of him in midfield, so why didn't we replace him in midfield. 

 

Now answer me.

 

I don;t expect I'll get anything other than a bollocks of a reply from you, but go on surprise me

 

 

[Baggio]

But Baggy it seems proposterous to view Solano as a right back don't you think?

 

But he spent the second half of last season there and picked up rave reviews from people within football, compare that to the first part of the season where he look poor and the majority had thought his legs had gone then it's understandable that people viewed him as a right back.

[Parky]

Amount of money spent is irrelevant if it aint spent right (See Souness, G).

 

He's definetly made one poor signing. £6m pissed away on a player who ain't worth 6 magic beans.

 

But I'm not sure about whats going on with a few others - Rozehnal,  Faye, Enrique, Cacapa, and Baye. Why are they in and out of the side? Does he not fancy them now he's had a chance to work with them (Rozehnal is less impressive each and every time I see him)? Is he spoilt for choice? Don't know. If you were better at the back that Milner cross would have got you a jammy win, instead its seen as a jammy draw cos of the chances they had. Wonder how things would have gone differently if you had gone into the game having played the same back 4 in every game this season. At the moment it seems to be a new back 4 every week. Not on, the premiership is not pre-season training and not many fans are going to sit on their hands and "give him time" if you're losing games while he experiments. Point is despite Parky's insistence that you needed Elano's long lost twin brother, we would have gone to s**** this season if it wasn't for our defence. Players like that need a platform to work from or the moments of genius (Which aren't common) aren't worth owt. Like Martin's goal against us. Great goal out of nothing, worth f*** all cos the defence wasn't up to it. Seems to me Sam has got it wrong in buying too many defenders who aren't proven in the premiership. Cacapa couldn't deal with a bit of pace? Baye and Enrique need to 'settle'? What a waste of time. If only he'd gone out and got some proper, proven centre halves you might have the back 5 sorted already without the need to chop and change looking for the right setup and held us off. You might have kept Sunderland quiet. All these games Sam has gone looking for a point might have ended in wins cos the opposition never got a sniff. I know its easier said than done but just looking at two guys - Distin would have saved Martin Jol's job. He'd also be in the Liverpool side at the moment. And he would have improved Newcastle no end. I wonder how many (former) premiership managers wake up in a cold sweat about letting him walk to bloody Portsmouth. And Tal Ben Haim has looked pretty s**** for Chelsea but he's fitted in well to Allardyce's formula before. Obviously it would have taken big offers in terms of wages to get these two guys, so in that sense, eyes I think he should have 'spent' more, but thats not quite the same. IMO he should have spent differently. Less exotic, more proven players.

 

That's a worthy point about the foreign defenders, but I'm not sure assembling a whole new back four is ever easy, even if they're all English, as Optymystyc Nyt points out. I strongly agree with you about experimenting in Premier League games as if they're friendlies. We only have two fit wingers and two fit full backs, that's been the case all season, and yet the four of them have only started one league game together (when we beat Everton in one of our most convincing performances of the season). The spine of the team changes every week, in central defence, central midfield and attack, and we haven't had many injuries for once either. There's no excuse for it.

 

Parky is right about the need for some attacking quality though. It says a lot about the transfer window that many fans were hoping Barton would come in and give the team some flair and excitement. The longer he was out injured, the more he was being hyped up by fans desperate to see some decent football. In our last three games we have scored courtesy of two own goals and a fluke. We got 1 point out of 9, and it's more than we deserved. We were second best every time, all over the park, and two of those sides will be fighting relegation.

 

There's a bigger picture to our defensive problems though beyond the individuals at the back. It's the inability to keep possession under pressure and a lack of quality on the ball and pace off it to put the other team on the back foot. It's not helped by our lack of width or wingers on the wrong flanks who keep cutting inside. Because we can't get in behind any teams they are quite happy to nudge their defence forward and congest our midfield, who can't handle it. The last time we got in behind a defence repeatedly was when N'Zogbia was in his proper position on the left, he got in behind and set up two goals. Sam's reaction was to move him to the right, drop him, then put him in defence. Against sunderland Sam dropped his only full backs, against Reading he dropped his only wingers. I think these wacky managerial decisions have largely contributed to the totally disjointed performances, add that to the fact the spine of the team changes every week and you can see why noone has had a chance to gel yet. Quite what Allardyce is up to I don't know, it appears he has used a third of the season to experiment and as you say you can't expect fans to tolerate that. He still doesn't seem to have any idea of his best team yet, so we can probably expect these experiments to continue.

 

Uh huh. But I think he would know his best XI if he had signed less unknown quantities. There would be no settling in periods or owt, you could just plop em in and away you go. Maybe you wouldn't be unbeatable from minute 1. But you would be improving far quicker if the manager had faith enough in his players to play them consistently in the knowledge that these guys are definetly good enough and he could play them week in, week out, not dropping them after 1 mistake, or 1 game where the opposition striker got the better of them. And you wouldn't need to play CNZ in defence either. Obviously that wouldn't have been the answer to all your ills - good individuals defenders wont turn you into Brazil overnight, but Im not sure thats what Allardyce is aiming for. The way you talk about keeping possesion under pressure, this attack being the best form of defence type thing, I'm not sure thats the "winning football" Allardyce talks about. Whether he is right or not is niether here nor there (Well, he's not, but thats not the point of this thread is it...) but I reckon his methods would be working far better if it wasn't relying on a weak backline to keep his all important clean sheets.

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

I also don't think Liverpool's defence is much better than ours man for man but they have to deal with a lot less pressure as thier mf has much more posession.

 

parky no matter who we'd bought in august we needed 4 new defenders and a defence who are completely new to each other is not going to be solid immediately. i consider cacapa as stand out quality and beye and enrique come with great reputations, also rozy and faye have been very highly rated by their previous fans.

quality teams aren't built overnight, it needs to be gradual. we should know better than anyone that having 5 champions league quality players playing alongside 5 championship quality players gets you nowhere. if you're unhappy with the quality of the defenders bought then it would be a waste to spend 25mill on 4 defenders (we spent 14 on 4 defenders (plus one free) who you are not happy with, so i presume this is around the figure you would have preffered) without spending the equivilent on our midfield, as a defence without a midfield who cant keep the ball is like sunderland spending 9million on a goalkeeper (i.e. he may be good but how many points will they actually gain? they'll just lose games by 2-3 goals and not 5, and maybe gain them a few draws). we'll now need at least 3 midfielders to match the defenders, and for the desired quality we're looking at another 30-40 million. we're probably right in the striking department, but with an unfit viduka, uncultured martins and a broken owen a 15-20mill striker would probably be good just to be safe, because we don't want to spend 65 million on a defence and midfield to find owen and viduka out for 3 months and having to rely on a very inconsistant martins and fucking ameobi.

now we've spent 80-85 million on team we better hope allardyce works out, or we're well and truely fucked, and what if some of these new players don't work out? better imo to take it step by step rather than putting £80,000,000 on red and hoping for the best.

 

We needed at least one quality mf to come in...One of my huge mf threads I think 80% or summat agreed. In relative terms wev'e really spent very little and it was silly not to get another winger or creative CM.

 

As a club we either compete or we don't and clubs that don't compete now will miss out as the top tier of football is changing.

[NE5]

But Baggy it seems proposterous to view Solano as a right back don't you think?

 

But he spent the second half of last season there and picked up rave reviews from people within football, compare that to the first part of the season where he look poor and the majority had thought his legs had gone then it's understandable that people viewed him as a right back.

 

where is he playing for West Ham ? - the new Newcastle, who are, errrr, above us in the league.

 

 

[NE5]

how many more good threads will we continue to lose until you two cease this endless vendetta.

 

No vendetta, he's just talking bollocks as he has for quite a while.

 

 

[Guest optimistic nit]

Amount of money spent is irrelevant if it aint spent right (See Souness, G).

 

He's definetly made one poor signing. £6m pissed away on a player who ain't worth 6 magic beans.

 

But I'm not sure about whats going on with a few others - Rozehnal,  Faye, Enrique, Cacapa, and Baye. Why are they in and out of the side? Does he not fancy them now he's had a chance to work with them (Rozehnal is less impressive each and every time I see him)? Is he spoilt for choice? Don't know. If you were better at the back that Milner cross would have got you a jammy win, instead its seen as a jammy draw cos of the chances they had. Wonder how things would have gone differently if you had gone into the game having played the same back 4 in every game this season. At the moment it seems to be a new back 4 every week. Not on, the premiership is not pre-season training and not many fans are going to sit on their hands and "give him time" if you're losing games while he experiments. Point is despite Parky's insistence that you needed Elano's long lost twin brother, we would have gone to s**** this season if it wasn't for our defence. Players like that need a platform to work from or the moments of genius (Which aren't common) aren't worth owt. Like Martin's goal against us. Great goal out of nothing, worth f*** all cos the defence wasn't up to it. Seems to me Sam has got it wrong in buying too many defenders who aren't proven in the premiership. Cacapa couldn't deal with a bit of pace? Baye and Enrique need to 'settle'? What a waste of time. If only he'd gone out and got some proper, proven centre halves you might have the back 5 sorted already without the need to chop and change looking for the right setup and held us off. You might have kept Sunderland quiet. All these games Sam has gone looking for a point might have ended in wins cos the opposition never got a sniff. I know its easier said than done but just looking at two guys - Distin would have saved Martin Jol's job. He'd also be in the Liverpool side at the moment. And he would have improved Newcastle no end. I wonder how many (former) premiership managers wake up in a cold sweat about letting him walk to bloody Portsmouth. And Tal Ben Haim has looked pretty s**** for Chelsea but he's fitted in well to Allardyce's formula before. Obviously it would have taken big offers in terms of wages to get these two guys, so in that sense, eyes I think he should have 'spent' more, but thats not quite the same. IMO he should have spent differently. Less exotic, more proven players.

 

That's a worthy point about the foreign defenders, but I'm not sure assembling a whole new back four is ever easy, even if they're all English, as Optymystyc Nyt points out. I strongly agree with you about experimenting in Premier League games as if they're friendlies. We only have two fit wingers and two fit full backs, that's been the case all season, and yet the four of them have only started one league game together (when we beat Everton in one of our most convincing performances of the season). The spine of the team changes every week, in central defence, central midfield and attack, and we haven't had many injuries for once either. There's no excuse for it.

 

Parky is right about the need for some attacking quality though. It says a lot about the transfer window that many fans were hoping Barton would come in and give the team some flair and excitement. The longer he was out injured, the more he was being hyped up by fans desperate to see some decent football. In our last three games we have scored courtesy of two own goals and a fluke. We got 1 point out of 9, and it's more than we deserved. We were second best every time, all over the park, and two of those sides will be fighting relegation.

 

There's a bigger picture to our defensive problems though beyond the individuals at the back. It's the inability to keep possession under pressure and a lack of quality on the ball and pace off it to put the other team on the back foot. It's not helped by our lack of width or wingers on the wrong flanks who keep cutting inside. Because we can't get in behind any teams they are quite happy to nudge their defence forward and congest our midfield, who can't handle it. The last time we got in behind a defence repeatedly was when N'Zogbia was in his proper position on the left, he got in behind and set up two goals. Sam's reaction was to move him to the right, drop him, then put him in defence. Against sunderland Sam dropped his only full backs, against Reading he dropped his only wingers. I think these wacky managerial decisions have largely contributed to the totally disjointed performances, add that to the fact the spine of the team changes every week and you can see why noone has had a chance to gel yet. Quite what Allardyce is up to I don't know, it appears he has used a third of the season to experiment and as you say you can't expect fans to tolerate that. He still doesn't seem to have any idea of his best team yet, so we can probably expect these experiments to continue.

 

Uh huh. But I think he would know his best XI if he had signed less unknown quantities. There would be no settling in periods or owt, you could just plop em in and away you go. Maybe you wouldn't be unbeatable from minute 1. But you would be improving far quicker if the manager had faith enough in his players to play them consistently in the knowledge that these guys are definetly good enough and he could play them week in, week out, not dropping them after 1 mistake, or 1 game where the opposition striker got the better of them. And you wouldn't need to play CNZ in defence either. Obviously that wouldn't have been the answer to all your ills - good individuals defenders wont turn you into Brazil overnight, but Im not sure thats what Allardyce is aiming for. The way you talk about keeping possesion under pressure, this attack being the best form of defence type thing, I'm not sure thats the "winning football" Allardyce talks about. Whether he is right or not is niether here nor there (Well, he's not, but thats not the point of this thread is it...) but I reckon his methods would be working far better if it wasn't relying on a weak backline to keep his all important clean sheets.

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

I also don't think Liverpool's defence is much better than ours man for man but they have to deal with a lot less pressure as thier mf has much more posession.

 

parky no matter who we'd bought in august we needed 4 new defenders and a defence who are completely new to each other is not going to be solid immediately. i consider cacapa as stand out quality and beye and enrique come with great reputations, also rozy and faye have been very highly rated by their previous fans.

quality teams aren't built overnight, it needs to be gradual. we should know better than anyone that having 5 champions league quality players playing alongside 5 championship quality players gets you nowhere. if you're unhappy with the quality of the defenders bought then it would be a waste to spend 25mill on 4 defenders (we spent 14 on 4 defenders (plus one free) who you are not happy with, so i presume this is around the figure you would have preffered) without spending the equivilent on our midfield, as a defence without a midfield who cant keep the ball is like sunderland spending 9million on a goalkeeper (i.e. he may be good but how many points will they actually gain? they'll just lose games by 2-3 goals and not 5, and maybe gain them a few draws). we'll now need at least 3 midfielders to match the defenders, and for the desired quality we're looking at another 30-40 million. we're probably right in the striking department, but with an unfit viduka, uncultured martins and a broken owen a 15-20mill striker would probably be good just to be safe, because we don't want to spend 65 million on a defence and midfield to find owen and viduka out for 3 months and having to rely on a very inconsistant martins and fucking ameobi.

now we've spent 80-85 million on team we better hope allardyce works out, or we're well and truely fucked, and what if some of these new players don't work out? better imo to take it step by step rather than putting £80,000,000 on red and hoping for the best.

 

We needed at least one quality mf to come in...One of my huge mf threads I think 80% or summat agreed. In relative terms wev'e really spent very little and it was silly not to get another winger or creative CM.

 

As a club we either compete or we don't and clubs that don't compete now will miss out as the top tier of football is changing.

 

this is really another thread.

 

i'm not sure if i can be bothered atm.

[Baggio]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what the want".

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what, you answer my question and I'll happily answer yours.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

I agree with Parkys comment. Now answer me.

 

 

 

That isn't really an answer, I'll let you off though because as someone pointed out this thread could get ruined.

 

Allardyce decided not to add pace and creativity into the midfield, why? who knows? What I do know is he spent £25 million in the Summer and chose to spend it how he wanted.

[NE5]

Amount of money spent is irrelevant if it aint spent right (See Souness, G).

 

He's definetly made one poor signing. £6m pissed away on a player who ain't worth 6 magic beans.

 

But I'm not sure about whats going on with a few others - Rozehnal,  Faye, Enrique, Cacapa, and Baye. Why are they in and out of the side? Does he not fancy them now he's had a chance to work with them (Rozehnal is less impressive each and every time I see him)? Is he spoilt for choice? Don't know. If you were better at the back that Milner cross would have got you a jammy win, instead its seen as a jammy draw cos of the chances they had. Wonder how things would have gone differently if you had gone into the game having played the same back 4 in every game this season. At the moment it seems to be a new back 4 every week. Not on, the premiership is not pre-season training and not many fans are going to sit on their hands and "give him time" if you're losing games while he experiments. Point is despite Parky's insistence that you needed Elano's long lost twin brother, we would have gone to s**** this season if it wasn't for our defence. Players like that need a platform to work from or the moments of genius (Which aren't common) aren't worth owt. Like Martin's goal against us. Great goal out of nothing, worth f*** all cos the defence wasn't up to it. Seems to me Sam has got it wrong in buying too many defenders who aren't proven in the premiership. Cacapa couldn't deal with a bit of pace? Baye and Enrique need to 'settle'? What a waste of time. If only he'd gone out and got some proper, proven centre halves you might have the back 5 sorted already without the need to chop and change looking for the right setup and held us off. You might have kept Sunderland quiet. All these games Sam has gone looking for a point might have ended in wins cos the opposition never got a sniff. I know its easier said than done but just looking at two guys - Distin would have saved Martin Jol's job. He'd also be in the Liverpool side at the moment. And he would have improved Newcastle no end. I wonder how many (former) premiership managers wake up in a cold sweat about letting him walk to bloody Portsmouth. And Tal Ben Haim has looked pretty s**** for Chelsea but he's fitted in well to Allardyce's formula before. Obviously it would have taken big offers in terms of wages to get these two guys, so in that sense, eyes I think he should have 'spent' more, but thats not quite the same. IMO he should have spent differently. Less exotic, more proven players.

 

That's a worthy point about the foreign defenders, but I'm not sure assembling a whole new back four is ever easy, even if they're all English, as Optymystyc Nyt points out. I strongly agree with you about experimenting in Premier League games as if they're friendlies. We only have two fit wingers and two fit full backs, that's been the case all season, and yet the four of them have only started one league game together (when we beat Everton in one of our most convincing performances of the season). The spine of the team changes every week, in central defence, central midfield and attack, and we haven't had many injuries for once either. There's no excuse for it.

 

Parky is right about the need for some attacking quality though. It says a lot about the transfer window that many fans were hoping Barton would come in and give the team some flair and excitement. The longer he was out injured, the more he was being hyped up by fans desperate to see some decent football. In our last three games we have scored courtesy of two own goals and a fluke. We got 1 point out of 9, and it's more than we deserved. We were second best every time, all over the park, and two of those sides will be fighting relegation.

 

There's a bigger picture to our defensive problems though beyond the individuals at the back. It's the inability to keep possession under pressure and a lack of quality on the ball and pace off it to put the other team on the back foot. It's not helped by our lack of width or wingers on the wrong flanks who keep cutting inside. Because we can't get in behind any teams they are quite happy to nudge their defence forward and congest our midfield, who can't handle it. The last time we got in behind a defence repeatedly was when N'Zogbia was in his proper position on the left, he got in behind and set up two goals. Sam's reaction was to move him to the right, drop him, then put him in defence. Against sunderland Sam dropped his only full backs, against Reading he dropped his only wingers. I think these wacky managerial decisions have largely contributed to the totally disjointed performances, add that to the fact the spine of the team changes every week and you can see why noone has had a chance to gel yet. Quite what Allardyce is up to I don't know, it appears he has used a third of the season to experiment and as you say you can't expect fans to tolerate that. He still doesn't seem to have any idea of his best team yet, so we can probably expect these experiments to continue.

 

Uh huh. But I think he would know his best XI if he had signed less unknown quantities. There would be no settling in periods or owt, you could just plop em in and away you go. Maybe you wouldn't be unbeatable from minute 1. But you would be improving far quicker if the manager had faith enough in his players to play them consistently in the knowledge that these guys are definetly good enough and he could play them week in, week out, not dropping them after 1 mistake, or 1 game where the opposition striker got the better of them. And you wouldn't need to play CNZ in defence either. Obviously that wouldn't have been the answer to all your ills - good individuals defenders wont turn you into Brazil overnight, but Im not sure thats what Allardyce is aiming for. The way you talk about keeping possesion under pressure, this attack being the best form of defence type thing, I'm not sure thats the "winning football" Allardyce talks about. Whether he is right or not is niether here nor there (Well, he's not, but thats not the point of this thread is it...) but I reckon his methods would be working far better if it wasn't relying on a weak backline to keep his all important clean sheets.

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

I also don't think Liverpool's defence is much better than ours man for man but they have to deal with a lot less pressure as thier mf has much more posession.

 

parky no matter who we'd bought in august we needed 4 new defenders and a defence who are completely new to each other is not going to be solid immediately. i consider cacapa as stand out quality and beye and enrique come with great reputations, also rozy and faye have been very highly rated by their previous fans.

quality teams aren't built overnight, it needs to be gradual. we should know better than anyone that having 5 champions league quality players playing alongside 5 championship quality players gets you nowhere. if you're unhappy with the quality of the defenders bought then it would be a waste to spend 25mill on 4 defenders (we spent 14 on 4 defenders (plus one free) who you are not happy with, so i presume this is around the figure you would have preffered) without spending the equivilent on our midfield, as a defence without a midfield who cant keep the ball is like sunderland spending 9million on a goalkeeper (i.e. he may be good but how many points will they actually gain? they'll just lose games by 2-3 goals and not 5, and maybe gain them a few draws). we'll now need at least 3 midfielders to match the defenders, and for the desired quality we're looking at another 30-40 million. we're probably right in the striking department, but with an unfit viduka, uncultured martins and a broken owen a 15-20mill striker would probably be good just to be safe, because we don't want to spend 65 million on a defence and midfield to find owen and viduka out for 3 months and having to rely on a very inconsistant martins and fucking ameobi.

now we've spent 80-85 million on team we better hope allardyce works out, or we're well and truely fucked, and what if some of these new players don't work out? better imo to take it step by step rather than putting £80,000,000 on red and hoping for the best.

 

We needed at least one quality mf to come in...One of my huge mf threads I think 80% or summat agreed. In relative terms wev'e really spent very little and it was silly not to get another winger or creative CM.

 

As a club we either compete or we don't and clubs that don't compete now will miss out as the top tier of football is changing.

 

Precisely again. It seems some people just can't accept that we thought small time in the summer.

 

 

[Baggio]

But Baggy it seems proposterous to view Solano as a right back don't you think?

 

But he spent the second half of last season there and picked up rave reviews from people within football, compare that to the first part of the season where he look poor and the majority had thought his legs had gone then it's understandable that people viewed him as a right back.

 

where is he playing for West Ham ? - the new Newcastle, who are, errrr, above us in the league.

 

 

 

What has where he's playing for West Ham now he's left got to do with anything?

[johnnypd]

while i can see why Baggio (and allardyce) viewed solano as a RB, NE5 is right to say that we haven't replaced him as a midfielder, or more specifically we haven't replaced the qualities he brings a side. we lack the vision that would be supply, whether he was playing at right-back or right-wing or wherever. we also lack the pace dyer brought to the side, even tho he played in myriad positions too.

[NE5]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what the want".

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what, you answer my question and I'll happily answer yours.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

I agree with Parkys comment. Now answer me.

 

 

 

That isn't really an answer, I'll let you off though because as someone pointed out this thread could get ruined.

 

Allardyce decided not to add pace and creativity into the midfield, why? who knows? What I do know is he spent £25 million in the Summer and chose to spend it how he wanted.

 

Before we sold players. Liverpool spent 23m on one player. I'm pleased you think such small time thinking will catch them. Congratulations, you've shown again how clueless you are. Nor will you admit the obvious, but I knew you wouldn't, every time I've touched on this subject you avoided a straight answer.

 

Never mind Baggy, the club was running itself "like a business" and the chairman didn't embarrass you. So thats alright. If this is what you wanted, stop moaning if such a thing is possible for you.

 

However, if you are right and it is Allardyce who chose to turn down the chance of signing top class players, then you should remember you touted him for the job and as such could give him a better chance rather than moaning on about him all the time too.

[Baggio]

while i can see why Baggio (and allardyce) viewed solano as a RB, NE5 is right to say that we haven't replaced him as a midfielder, or more specifically we haven't replaced the qualities he brings a side. we lack the vision that would be supply, whether he was playing at right-back or right-wing or wherever. we also lack the pace dyer brought to the side, even tho he played in myriad positions too.

 

I didn't view Solano as a right back and I pointed out all Summer that we would struggle with no pace and creativity, I'm pointing out what Allardyce's comments were at the time which suggests he viewed Solano as a right back.

[Guest optimistic nit]

on your first point though, i am content with how much we've spent. west ham and citeh have both been throwing their money about. it will work for citeh, it wont for the hammers, but there are other ways to improve in this new world. we had a better squad than citeh but more off the field problems than you could shake a stick at. we needed sorting out good and proper and we're on the way to that now, but you can still see the shades of the debacle the previous lot left us with, and can we expect anything else, after less than 6 months?

 

[NE5]

on your first point though, i am content with how much we've spent. west ham and citeh have both been throwing their money about. it will work for citeh, it wont for the hammers, but there are other ways to improve in this new world. we had a better squad than citeh but more off the field problems than you could shake a stick at. we needed sorting out good and proper and we're on the way to that now, but you can still see the shades of the debacle the previous lot left us with, and can we expect anything else, after less than 6 months?

 

 

Alan Curbishley isn't the most inspiring of managers, but you can't argue with signing players like Solano and Bellamy. Shame we didn't still have both of those players here.

 

We would be a different team entirely.

 

 

[Baggio]

 

Hence my angle on this thread ie the spend could have done with being a touch more aggressive.

 

Also a lot of this tinkering is cause he didn't buy any utter stand out quality.

 

But you were happy with the defenders he brought in at the time.

 

Tbf I was and continue to be overjoyed with Enrique who will get better and better and Faye who is coming into his own.

 

But as my many whinging threads about CM's (creative or otherwise) are a testament I was worried as soon as the window shut about our ability to compete  with proper football in mf.

 

I said all summer that the lack of pace and creativity would cost us and it has, replacing Dyer with Smith was madness and we're now left with a team of grafters rather than any genuine pace and penetration in the team, our only players capable of this are either on the bench or playing out of position at left back.

 

As for signing better quality defenders, he said players wouldn't come here because we were not in Europe and I believe him, Ben Haim went to Chelsea, Distin had already agreed to join Pompey, Heinze turned us down flat, Silvestre turned us down because he didn't like Barton and Man Utd would only sell Brown if Heinze stayed, what other players with Premiership experience stand out apart from them who would leave their current club to come here?

 

My biggest worry now is that if players turned us down last year because of no European football, there's a good chance we're going to have the same problem next Summer too.

 

you never give up do you. Who replaced Solano then, and why didnt' we replace him ?

 

 

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, which suggests he seen Nobby as a right back.

 

is the wrong answer. The question was who would have replaced Nobby as a forward player, and why didnt' we replace him.

 

 

 

It's not the wrong answer, it's just not what you want to hear.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

There's only one person here who only "wants to hear what the want".

 

Who decided we could do without pace and creativity in midfield, and why / what factors were involved ? Answer the question. Your opinion, but answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you what, you answer my question and I'll happily answer yours.

 

Allardyce said at the time he wouldn't of let Solano leave if he hadn't completed the deal for Beye, why do you think he said this if he viewed Nobby as a forward player?

 

I agree with Parkys comment. Now answer me.

 

 

 

That isn't really an answer, I'll let you off though because as someone pointed out this thread could get ruined.

 

Allardyce decided not to add pace and creativity into the midfield, why? who knows? What I do know is he spent £25 million in the Summer and chose to spend it how he wanted.

 

Before we sold players. Liverpool spent 23m on one player. I'm pleased you think such small time thinking will catch them. Congratulations, you've shown again how clueless you are. Nor will you admit the obvious, but I knew you wouldn't, every time I've touched on this subject you avoided a straight answer.

 

Never mind Baggy, the club was running itself "like a business" and the chairman didn't embarrass you. So thats alright. If this is what you wanted, stop moaning if such a thing is possible for you.

 

 

 

Do you honestly think a £23 million pound player like Torres would come here without Europe?

 

He isn't like Michael Owen who we had over a barrell and to suggest we could even compete with the likes of Liverpool for signings like that shows how far out of touch with reality you are.

[Baggio]

on your first point though, i am content with how much we've spent. west ham and citeh have both been throwing their money about. it will work for citeh, it wont for the hammers, but there are other ways to improve in this new world. we had a better squad than citeh but more off the field problems than you could shake a stick at. we needed sorting out good and proper and we're on the way to that now, but you can still see the shades of the debacle the previous lot left us with, and can we expect anything else, after less than 6 months?

 

 

How much did West Ham spend net in the summer?