Mills and Boon Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Where? Quote one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 The point isn’t that we’ll struggle to compete with Man City - we’re struggling to compete with Palace, Bournemouth and Sunderland. PSR has fucked us in terms of really pushing for the big trophies - but there are no excuses for where we are nor for looking as poorly coached as we do at present. ‘More of the same’ isn’t working, and if it isn’t the plan then the players aren’t listening to the manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEntertainer Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Yeah there's been a lot of comments about putting some respect on Howe's name and the like, there's been some more reasoned counter arguing as well, but there's been a fair chunk of calling people entitled or disrespectful for doubting Howe now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 5 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: I'm just moving you away from this narrative that the rules have prevented us from spending big to mount a challenge towards the upper reaches of the table. Our net spend in the last 5 years is only bettered by 4 other clubs. Then you have the likes of Villa who genuinely have been handicapped by the rules who are over £550m behind us for net spend. Whilst I agree that we're financially miles off the likes of Man City, and you are correct to point out the massive head start they've got on us, for what we've spent we should be doing much better than 14th place and so many sub par performances. That's not really up for debate. It's very misleading argument though. The net figures of the top teams are much lower since they have sold unwanted players, and young talent they have hoovered over over many years for huge fees and are allowed to sell to Saudi. When we started spending we had no players of value, so could only buy. Couldn't sell dross for inflated fees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: I'm just moving you away from this narrative that the rules have prevented us from spending big to mount a challenge towards the upper reaches of the table. Our net spend in the last 5 years is only bettered by 4 other clubs. Then you have the likes of Villa who genuinely have been handicapped by the rules who are over £550m behind us for net spend. Whilst I agree that we're financially miles off the likes of Man City, and you are correct to point out the massive head start they've got on us, for what we've spent we should be doing much better than 14th place and so many sub par performances. That's not really up for debate. You'll never ever move me away from that. A club that's at the bottom of the league with a poor squad and no saleable assets, that wants to get to the top is going to have to spend money to accelerate the process, the other clubs are already there with no/less need to spend. Being 5th in net spend over 5 years means very little if you're starting from the bottom, the teams on that list aren't created equal and you can't quantify what that should mean if, for example, the team in 10th has a squad that cost three times what yours did but they already bought it before you started spending. It's why squad cost, or better still wage list is generally more accepted way to measure where you are vs that list. On that basis this is the first time in Howe's time here that we've underperformed (if we finish lower than 8th) and in fact the first time we haven't massively overperformed. Edited April 13 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, dcmk said: It's very misleading argument though. The net figures of the top teams are much lower since they have sold unwanted players, and young talent they have hoovered over over many years for huge fees and are allowed to sell to Saudi. When we started spending we had no players of value, so could only buy. Couldn't sell dross for inflated fees. Just use gross figures then if you like. I don't mind. We've spent £750m since January 2022. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: The point isn’t that we’ll struggle to compete with Man City - we’re struggling to compete with Palace, Bournemouth and Sunderland. PSR has fucked us in terms of really pushing for the big trophies - but there are no excuses for where we are nor for looking as poorly coached as we do at present. ‘More of the same’ isn’t working, and if it isn’t the plan then the players aren’t listening to the manager. I mean there are many reasons why which have been done to death on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 5 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said: Where? Quote one Read some of @dcmk posts for starters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills and Boon Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 I've read them. At no point has he said nobody can question the manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: Just use gross figures then if you like. I don't mind. We've spent £750m since January 2022. Net is the right one to use. I'm saying there is more to it though. And you have have to take into account the level you are starting from. Starting from bottom And other teams as title contenders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 It's also not even true ffs https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/0?ids=a&sa=&saison_id=2022&saison_id_bis=2025&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0 Change the dates and sort by outgoings or balance, we're 7th and 8th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 3 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: Read some of @dcmk posts for starters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawalls Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 3 minutes ago, dcmk said: Net is the right one to use. I'm saying there is more to it though. And you have have to take into account the level you are starting from. Starting from bottom And other teams as title contenders. And Sunderland have spent a fraction of us in that same time and were two divisions lower, What's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, dcmk said: Net is the right one to use. I'm saying there is more to it though. And you have have to take into account the level you are starting from. Starting from bottom And other teams as title contenders. Listen I get where you're coming from but as I said yesterday Steve Bruce was probably the biggest joker we've ever had as a manager here. I absolutely despise him. His last full season saw him get a 12th placed finish, fast forward to now and £750m (or £450m net) later and we are sat in 14th position. We are massively under performing. Ultimately the buck for that stops at the manager. If the last 6 games goes the same way and we finish where we are now his position comes under threat, and rightly so. Fair play to Howe and he recognises and accepts this, as it would be seen as a massive failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, Gawalls said: And Sunderland have spent a fraction of us in that same time and were two divisions lower, What's your point? They haven't won any silverware or had any European campaigns. This season, our summer fiasco, is a big reason why we are so bad. They have spent very well. And done well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: Listen I get where you're coming from but as I said yesterday Steve Bruce was probably the biggest joker we've ever had as a manager here. I absolutely despise him. His last full season saw him get a 12th placed finish, fast forward to now and £750m (or £450m net) later and we are sat in 14th position. We are massively under performing. Ultimately the buck for that stops at the manager. If the last 6 games goes the same way and we finish where we are now his position comes under threat, and rightly so. Fair play to Howe and he recognises and accepts this, as it would be seen as a massive failure. Why are you choosing the spend for 5 years, but only choosing the position we're in now and not all of the achievements in between? You can't have it both ways. Edited April 13 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 5 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: It's also not even true ffs https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/0?ids=a&sa=&saison_id=2022&saison_id_bis=2025&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0 Change the dates and sort by outgoings or balance, we're 7th and 8th. Depends on who you want to believe I suppose. Nobody knows the exact figures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Anyway, am gan to bed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, Kid Icarus said: Why are you choosing the spend for 5 years, but only choosing the position we're in now and not all of the achievements in between? You can't have it both ways. I've covered Eddie Howes 4.5 years in the job and the position we are in right now is the most important one for the purpose of this debate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said: Listen I get where you're coming from but as I said yesterday Steve Bruce was probably the biggest joker we've ever had as a manager here. I absolutely despise him. His last full season saw him get a 12th placed finish, fast forward to now and £750m (or £450m net) later and we are sat in 14th position. We are massively under performing. Ultimately the buck for that stops at the manager. If the last 6 games goes the same way and we finish where we are now his position comes under threat, and rightly so. Fair play to Howe and he recognises and accepts this, as it would be seen as a massive failure. That net spend has got us silverware, cup finals and champions league campaigns. Our current predicament is an outlier when you look at the whole 5 years, and is part of a bigger problem, that wasn't Howe's making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallsendmag Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, Kid Icarus said: Anyway, am gan to bed. Same. We can resume battle tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 12 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: The point isn’t that we’ll struggle to compete with Man City - we’re struggling to compete with Palace, Bournemouth and Sunderland. PSR has fucked us in terms of really pushing for the big trophies - but there are no excuses for where we are nor for looking as poorly coached as we do at present. ‘More of the same’ isn’t working, and if it isn’t the plan then the players aren’t listening to the manager. PSR hasn't just prevented us from building on last season's return. It's influence has completely derailed the project. Perhaps we've fallen further than we ought to have, and there's some self-inflicted wounds for sure, but people continue to underestimate its impact. It's the root of it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Just now, Wallsendmag said: I've covered Eddie Howes 4.5 years in the job and the position we are in right now is the most important one for the purpose of this debate. It might be the most important one for your argument, but it's not the most important one for the debate because its not the only outcome of the money that's been spent in that time, every outcome is important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said: Anyway, am gan to bed. Hang on. It's coffee, fag and shit time where @TheBrownBottle is in the world. Time to go again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills and Boon Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 We're 4 or 5 points off where you'd expect us to be comparing wage spend on the squad. Having lost a key player and had more games than anyone. Hardly massively underperforming like. I think the fact that we've tended to overachieve under Howe has made it look worse than it really is to some Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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