Sell Given ?

[Guest SmileyCulture]

Why do people have all these "feelings" about what the players are thinking and what theyre going to do? are they the players? are they close personal friends?

 

Given has already said he wants to be at newcastle for as long as he can when he hit the 400 games mark

 

"I'd love to play as many games as I can - I've said that all along.

 

"I want to play as many games as I can for Newcastle and Ireland, and be able to look back on that with satisfaction when I retire.

 

"I hope to play many, many more games for Newcastle."

 

http://www.nufc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10278~949488,00.html

 

So i very much doubt he'l be off soon to go win things - if he wanted to do that hes had the last 10 years of being called on of/if not the best goal keeper in the prem and has probably had more than his fair share of clubs trying to snatch him over the years.

 

As for selling him - to sell him would be to drop 4-5 places in the prem, harper is a good keeper but he doesn't come close to given.

 

As for krul, i think its been said already, by the time hes 100% ready for regular games etc given will probably be near to hanging up his boots anyway.

[Guest thompers]

Thompers, I've been looking for a while and I still haven't found your brain.

 

If there's one thing supporters of other clubs recognize it's that Given is World Class. In fact, the only people I've ever seen to shite him seems to be a small overly cynical segment of our own support.

 

Given is quite literally second to none in shot-stopping. That can't be argued. Even ignoring all other aspects of his game, he is quite possibly the best in the world in the most important part of goalkeeping. That alone should mark him as a quality keeper.

 

On top of that, I have no idea where this drivel about his box command and aerial ability being shite are coming from. Yes, he's not as good at those as he is at shot stopping, but in all my years of watching him play I have never seen any sort of conclusive evidence to tell me that his defense of the box or aerial ability is any less than that of a decent Premiership keeper. It also bears mention that the quality of the defense is probably one of the reasons that Shay looks less dominant in the box than he should. It's a lot easier to control the box with Thuram and Cannavaro than it is with Bramble and Boumsong.

 

The only reason he keeps getting unduly attacked in these areas is because a. His godly shot-stopping ability makes them seem bad in comparison and b. Cynics will dig hard for ANYTHING to slag off a decent player with. For me, Shay's only weakness is that his distribution is admittedly utter shite. But I can live with this, to discard him for this weakness would be like writing off Henry because he can't score headers.

 

I'm a realist. I know we're mid table, I know a lot of our players are shite, I know that Ameobi should probably be shipped off to the Championship ASAP.

 

But, being a realist, the one fact that I can acknowledge without a doubt is that Shay Given is World Class.

 

A 'world class' keeper would be strong in all areas of goalkeeping, not just shot stopping. I don't think I've actually said that he isn't a quality keeper, but that world class is a typical NUFC fan over exaggeration. Most contradictory post ever quoted above by the way

[Guest Alan Shearer 9]

Can't believe some people seriously want to sell him. I hope they're on the wind-up.

 

If they are being 100% serious then the numb C***s need their heads looking at imo.... :roll: :roll:

 

In their defence, some people thought Souness should get more time, that Faye was an acceptable player, and that Ameobi is good enough for a first team start.

 

Care in the community has a lot to answer for.

 

Aye, and don't even get me fucking started on Ramage. Same goes for Collins John and Curtis Davies, all peas from the same pod; the pod of SHITE FOOTbALLERS.

[Guest Ridzuan]

No.Yes Tim Krul is good but he still has a lot to learn.I think Given still play an important role for us this and the future seasons and I hope to see him end his career with us.

[oldtype]

So enlighten me. In what way is Given "quality" but not World Class? What keepers in your views are actually "World Class?"

 

I understood your point that you think a world class keeper should be good in all areas, but how do you address my points that nobody can conclusively say that Given is actually bad at all the things you accuse him of being bad at.

 

While we're at it, if you actually think that Given is quality, why say that

 

He's a trophy keeper that makes the sheepfans that are a majority bleat about him being world class.

 

He's a midget,  has F*** all aerial ability, and he has no command of the defence, which is surely one of the contributing factors as to why its shit.

 

Either your making some contradictions here or your previous post was just blatant windup/attention seeking  tongue.gif

 

Oh, and btw it's just out of the goodness of my heart that I'm not even addressing your highly "interesting" comment that Krul is better than Given.

[Guest Smudger]

So enlighten me. In what way is Given "quality" but not World Class? What keepers in your views are actually "World Class?"

 

I understood your point that you think a world class keeper should be good in all areas, but how do you address my points that nobody can conclusively say that Given is actually bad at all the things you accuse him of being bad at.

 

While we're at it, if you actually think that Given is quality, why say that

 

He's a trophy keeper that makes the sheepfans that are a majority bleat about him being world class.

 

He's a midget,  has F*** all aerial ability, and he has no command of the defence, which is surely one of the contributing factors as to why its shit.

 

Either your making some contradictions here or your previous post was just blatant windup/attention seeking  tongue.gif

 

Oh, and btw it's just out of the goodness of my heart that I'm not even addressing your highly "interesting" comment that Krul is better than Given.

 

Maybe if you ignore him he will go away

[Guest thompers]

So enlighten me. In what way is Given "quality" but not World Class? What keepers in your views are actually "World Class?"

 

Buffon and Van Der Sar to name a couple and people like Schmeichel and Seaman in their day. Given is "quality" because he has outstanding parts to his game but not "World class" because parts of his game are flawed such as his defensive organisation at times and his ability when it comes to crosses (an important part of a goakeepers game). If you want though I will say omg Given dead world class lyk as long az the otha team onli playz thru da middle and duznt do any crossez!

 

I understood your point that you think a world class keeper should be good in all areas, but how do you address my points that nobody can conclusively say that Given is actually bad at all the things you accuse him of being bad at.

 

He is bad at organising the defence. Terrible in fact. I also can't remember a time that he last claimed a corner. It's either a punch away or he's nowhere near. Never claims them. So yes, I think that I can conclusively say that Given is bad at all the things I accuse him of being bad at.

 

While we're at it, if you actually think that Given is quality, why say that

 

He's a trophy keeper that makes the sheepfans that are a majority bleat about him being world class.

 

Because shot stopping is the most 'spectacular' part of a goalkeepers job, and is also Given's best attribute. When our fickle fans see a player doing the most spectacular part well it fools them into thinking that he's a better player than he actually is. That quote is more of a stab at the fans than Given. It's like people who think Parker is amazing because he does sliding tackles alk the time. The same applies.

 

He's a midget,  has F*** all aerial ability, and he has no command of the defence, which is surely one of the contributing factors as to why its shit.

 

Yes, more opinions on parts of his game. That, of course, doesn't state that there isn't quality parts to his game which I've already explained that there is.

 

Either your making some contradictions here or your previous post was just blatant windup/attention seeking  tongue.gif

 

Where have I contradicted myself?

 

Oh, and btw it's just out of the goodness of my heart that I'm not even addressing your highly "interesting" comment that Krul is better than Given.

 

I never said that so you're making things up. I said that Krul's one game has been better than Given has played all season. That is indictating that I think Given's recent form has been poor, which imo, it has. I haven't once suggested that Krul is a better player. But if that's what you have to resort to to try and make a point, then make some more shit up, OldTrype 

[oldtype]

Quote function doesn't work for me. Makes stuff like this bloody annoying.

 

A. If your definition of World Class is just the two best keepers in the world, then sure, Shay's not world class. But personally, I'd call one of the best keepers in the world's most competetive leagues in the world who also happens to be an excellent preformer on the international stage "world class." But this is pointless semantics.

 

B. Again, how in Gods name do you know he is terrible at organizing the defense? Do you have a bug on his lapel listening in to his conversations with the back line? Are you pals with Ramage or Taylor who've been telling you that Given ain't giving them the right instructions? Fact in point, you have no objective measure whatsoever of determining what portion of our defending woes lie with Shay and what portion lie with our rather severely incompetent defense line. Given(excuse the pun) the situation and considering their reputations, I'd stake my money on the latter. As would any fan who wasn't hell-bent at digging up anything to shit on our best frigging player with.

 

C. You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper. The most obvious way a goalie is judged is "how many more goals would we concede without him?" And I believe that that number for Given, even assuming that he saves us ZERO goals with aerial ability or box control, is high enough to make him World Class. Would you say a striker is shite because he does nothing but score goals? Because basically what your saying right now is that Given is shite because all he does is stop them.

 

D. It's a given(this is getting annoying) that your comparing the current form of both players, and I never claimed that you said "Krul in that one game>Given at any time in his career." I knew exactly what you were saying, and I find it laughable all the same.

 

You can fondle yourself with your snide remarks all you want, but strip it all away and your just repeating the exact same points, exactly as illogical as they were a few hours ago.

[gonufc]

Quote function doesn't work for me. Makes stuff like this bloody annoying.

 

A. If your definition of World Class is just the two best keepers in the world, then sure, Shay's not world class. But personally, I'd call one of the best keepers in the world's most competetive leagues in the world who also happens to be an excellent preformer on the international stage "world class." But this is pointless semantics.

 

B. Again, how in Gods name do you know he is terrible at organizing the defense? Do you have a bug on his lapel listening in to his conversations with the back line? Are you pals with Ramage or Taylor who've been telling you that Given ain't giving them the right instructions? Fact in point, you have no objective measure whatsoever of determining what portion of our defending woes lie with Shay and what portion lie with our rather severely incompetent defense line. Given(excuse the pun) the situation and considering their reputations, I'd stake my money on the latter. As would any fan who wasn't hell-bent at digging up anything to shit on our best frigging player with.

 

C. You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper. The most obvious way a goalie is judged is "how many more goals would we concede without him?" And I believe that that number for Given, even assuming that he saves us ZERO goals with aerial ability or box control, is high enough to make him World Class. Would you say a striker is shite because he does nothing but score goals? Because basically what your saying right now is that Given is shite because all he does is stop them.

 

D. It's a given(this is getting annoying) that your comparing the current form of both players, and I never claimed that you said "Krul in that one game>Given at any time in his career." I knew exactly what you were saying, and I find it laughable all the same.

 

You can fondle yourself with your snide remarks all you want, but strip it all away and your just repeating the exact same points, exactly as illogical as they were a few hours ago.

 

I agree with that but people also need to remember that definitions of "world class" vary from person to person.

[Guest thompers]

Quote function doesn't work for me. Makes stuff like this bloody annoying.

 

A. If your definition of World Class is just the two best keepers in the world, then sure, Shay's not world class. But personally, I'd call one of the best keepers in the world's most competetive leagues in the world who also happens to be an excellent preformer on the international stage "world class." But this is pointless semantics.

 

B. Again, how in Gods name do you know he is terrible at organizing the defense? Do you have a bug on his lapel listening in to his conversations with the back line? Are you pals with Ramage or Taylor who've been telling you that Given ain't giving them the right instructions? Fact in point, you have no objective measure whatsoever of determining what portion of our defending woes lie with Shay and what portion lie with our rather severely incompetent defense line. Given(excuse the pun) the situation and considering their reputations, I'd stake my money on the latter. As would any fan who wasn't hell-bent at digging up anything to shit on our best frigging player with.

 

C. You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper. The most obvious way a goalie is judged is "how many more goals would we concede without him?" And I believe that that number for Given, even assuming that he saves us ZERO goals with aerial ability or box control, is high enough to make him World Class. Would you say a striker is shite because he does nothing but score goals? Because basically what your saying right now is that Given is shite because all he does is stop them.

 

D. It's a given(this is getting annoying) that your comparing the current form of both players, and I never claimed that you said "Krul in that one game>Given at any time in his career." I knew exactly what you were saying, and I find it laughable all the same.

 

You can fondle yourself with your snide remarks all you want, but strip it all away and your just repeating the exact same points, exactly as illogical as they were a few hours ago.

 

What a fucking load of shit. I don't care how many school words you dress it up with, that whole post is the biggest load of fucking bollocks I've ever read in my entire life. NE5 makes more sense than you.

[toptoon]

Given is world class!!! No way sell him! I woulden't swap him for any other keeper in the world!!!!

[oldtype]

I suppose that translates as "I don't know what to say and I can't be bothered to type another half-page essay on this bloody thread so I'll just shut up."

 

Suits me.

[Guest thompers]

I suppose that translates as "I don't know what to say and I can't be bothered to type another half-page essay on this bloody thread so I'll just shut up."

 

Suits me.

 

It translates to "it was a shit post". Would you call Bramble world class because he's a strong tackler? It's different for strikers, which was your shit comparison, because scoring goals is their job. If they score they score, simple as. With a goalkeeper, the other team not scoring is his job. You can stop shots all day but if you can't claim the crosses then you're more likely to concede. I'm actually suprised that you chose such a shit not-at-all-related comparison.

[Guest thompers]

oh and

 

You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper

 

I didn't miss it. It's just an opinion and you're entitled to it, but I just doubt that many will agree with it.

[Guest thompers]

Oh and you find it laughable that I made a point about Given's form? Would you care to explain why?

[oldtype]

Not really, it's actually fairly straightforward. A striker's job is to SCORE goals, a keeprs job is to STOP them. If Given can't stop goals by the stuff you keep mentioning (which, by the way, you still can't prove that he's bad at.) but stops them all anyway with reflex saves, than I really don't care whether his all-around game is weak or not. (And it isn't, although it's getting tiresome mentioning this point over and over again.)

 

Compare this to say... Henry. If Henry is scoring 20 a season with his right foot, then I don't really care even if he can't score with his left foot or with his head (although honestly I can't even recall if Henry is right-footed or not. Shame on me, but it's just an example.)

 

It doesn't matter HOW Shay's stopping goals as long as he's stopping lots of them. The number he stops just with his reflexes is enough for me, to call him World Class. Apparently, it doesn't work that way for you. Shame.

[Guest Paulus]

This Thompers guy is the most mentally ill lad I've ever seen here  :roll:

[Guest thompers]

Not really, it's actually fairly straightforward. A striker's job is to SCORE goals, a keeprs job is to STOP them. If Given can't stop goals by the stuff you keep mentioning (which, by the way, you still can't prove that he's bad at.) but stops them all anyway with reflex saves, than I really don't care whether his all-around game is weak or not.

 

Compare this to say... Henry. If Henry is scoring 20 a season with his right foot, then I don't really care even if he can't score with his left foot or with his head (although honestly I can't even recall if Henry is right-footed or not. Shame on me, but it's just an example.)

 

It doesn't matter HOW Shay's stopping goals as long as he's stopping lots of them. The number he stops just with his reflexes is enough for me, to call him World Class. Apparently, it doesn't work that way for you. Shame.

 

Another fucking ridiculous post.

 

Henry, if he wants to do his job and score the goal, can opt to use his right foot and therefore score and do his job.

 

If Given wants to not concede he can't opt from where he does his goalkeeping from. "Ohhhh wait there Robben mate, I'm not very good at crosses I am a shot stopper! Give it to Lampers to crack one from long range instead"

 

It's a totally fucking ridiculous comparison.

[Guest thompers]

This Thompers guy is the most mentally ill lad I've ever seen here  :roll:

 

Fuck off.

[oldtype]

Same situation can happen with strikers. Strikers aern't always in situations in which they can choose which body part they want to use to score. In this aspect, lack of versatility can be a weakness. That goes for keepers as well. But there are enough situations in which the keeper is free to play to his strenghts.

 

Command of the box or aerial ability really isn't more than preventing shots before they happen. Again, assuming that Shay can't defend for shite... Which we keep doing for some reason despite the fact that it's not true, it doesn't matter because he can wait until the shots happen and swat them away with his reflexes. Hence, mission accomplished: he's still stopping a LOT more goals than most keepers.

 

Oh, and just so we're even...

F*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ck

ShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShit

[Guest thompers]

Same situation can happen with strikers. Strikers aern't always in situations in which they can choose which body part they want to use to score. In this aspect, lack of versatility can be a weakness. That goes for keepers as well. But there are enough situations in which the keeper is free to play to his strenghts.

 

Command of the box or aerial ability really isn't more than preventing shots before they happen. Again, assuming that Shay can't defend for shite... Which we keep doing for some reason despite the fact that it's not true, it doesn't matter because he can wait until the shots happen and swat them away with his reflexes. Hence, mission accomplished: he's still stopping a LOT more goals than most keepers.

 

Oh, and just so we're even...

F*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ckF*ck

ShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShitShit

 

 

I'm astonished at how much of a poor argument you have. Why even bother to type a paragraph? Why not just bleeeeeeeeeeeat

[Tisd09]

IMO We should keep Shay Given he is one of the best keepers in the Premiership I would only have Cech and Van der Saar before him and saying that Van der Saar looked for less accomplished behind the Fulham defence than he does behind Rio and his lot.

 

Harper is good but is in a different league to Shay IMO. Krul looks as if he has great potential but I wouldn't want him being 1st choice at the moment. Given has a number of years left in him, and I don't think we would be able to get that much money for him because he is ageing a bit.

 

World Class I don't know but he is certainley one of the better goal keepers in the World there are not too many I would have instead of him, though I must admit I don't know keepers from other leagues well enough. Obviously the big names like Buffon, Cassais (Sp? Madrid Keeper) come to mind as better keepers as well as the two mentioned already.

 

I think we would be daft to get rid of Shay, we would not be able to replace him with better or similar quality and we would not get that much money for him anyhow.

[oldtype]

mostly because I have a brain.

 

Then again, it can't hurt to try.

 

BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

 

[Guest thompers]

mostly because I have a brain.

 

Then again, it can't hurt to try.

 

BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

 

 

Aye and it's programmed the same as 50,000 others. Bleeeeeeaat

[Guest Jangles]

Can I join in?

 

A. If your definition of World Class is just the two best keepers in the world, then sure, Shay's not world class. But personally, I'd call one of the best keepers in the world's most competetive leagues in the world who also happens to be an excellent preformer on the international stage "world class." But this is pointless semantics.

 

Its all semantics but there seems to be fewer 'great' goalies of the class of schmeichel, seaman, southall, etc and therefore on the basis that theres very few keepers playing now who Id swap Shay for Id allow him world class status

 

B. Again, how in Gods name do you know he is terrible at organizing the defense? Do you have a bug on his lapel listening in to his conversations with the back line? Are you pals with Ramage or Taylor who've been telling you that Given ain't giving them the right instructions? Fact in point, you have no objective measure whatsoever of determining what portion of our defending woes lie with Shay and what portion lie with our rather severely incompetent defense line. Given(excuse the pun) the situation and considering their reputations, I'd stake my money on the latter. As would any fan who wasn't hell-bent at digging up anything to shit on our best frigging player with.

 

Its depressingly often you see Ramage/Taylor/Moore/Whoever take a ball destined for Shays hands and give away a corner or give away possession, it happens far too often to be coincidence and leads me to believe that Shay isnt vocal enough. And I used to sit pitchside and rarely heard given shouting although crowd noise makes it tricky to tell.

 

I think the point thats being made is that decent organisation can make a good defence with only average players, and shay has to shoulder some responsibility for the lack of organisation our defence can show on occasion

 

C. You completely miss my base point, which is that being a spectacular shot stopper and just above average is enough to be a World Class keeper. The most obvious way a goalie is judged is "how many more goals would we concede without him?" And I believe that that number for Given, even assuming that he saves us ZERO goals with aerial ability or box control, is high enough to make him World Class. Would you say a striker is shite because he does nothing but score goals? Because basically what your saying right now is that Given is shite because all he does is stop them.

 

This is another one difficult to judge as keepers tend to be judged on mistakes and spectacular saves rather than the mundane - David James probably prevents umpteem goals by claiming crosses far beyond where he probably should but then when he misses one he gets slated whereas Given rarely comes to claim crosses even when he probably should and this probably costs us goals, however his exceptional shot stopping may make up for this

 

 

But I think its all a bit academic as I cant think of anyone that would shell out silly amounts of money to buy a keeper