Wages crisis?

[koven]

 

No-one in this thread has a clue how to run a multi-million pound business so I don't know why we're trying to pass judgement on it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

A £350m p.a product business for a £30bn p.a company. There are people with post-docs and even accountants in this thread. You cheeky twerp.

 

The legal requirement for disclosure by public limited companies is very limited so unless you work at the club or are mystic meg, it doesn't matter if your Leonhard Euler, you can't comment effectively.

 

Plus if there was such people in this thread they would be able to show that players supposed wages are not as high as people think, and in any case aren't affecting the financial wellbeing of the club.

 

They would also be able to tell us the financial advice such a business would be privy to.  But since there are no posts of this nature...

[ChezGiven]

 

No-one in this thread has a clue how to run a multi-million pound business so I don't know why we're trying to pass judgement on it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

A £350m p.a product business for a £30bn p.a company. There are people with post-docs and even accountants in this thread. You cheeky twerp.

 

The legal requirement for disclosure by public limited companies is very limited so unless you work at the club or are mystic meg, it doesn't matter if your Leonhard Euler, you can't comment effectively.

 

Plus if there was such people in this thread they would be able to show that players supposed wages are not as high as people think, and in any case aren't affecting the financial wellbeing of the club.

 

They would also be able to tell us the financial advice such a business would be privy to.  But since there are no posts of this nature...

 

Owen isnt on over 100k?

Dyer isnt on around 85K?

Parker isnt worth less than he is on?

 

Of course i can comment on wages and about the structure of wages within the club. As Dave says, there is an element of speculation but that is backed up on here by every single public utterance by the club and talk in the papers.

 

The public disclosure rules of listed companies are fairly straightforward, i dont need them pointed out really.

 

What exactly is your point in relation to what people have posted? I am aware that there is no 100% certainty about the wage structure but enough is known publicly about what this club pays for people to consider alternative structures. You havent really added to this debate tbh.

[koven]

 

No-one in this thread has a clue how to run a multi-million pound business so I don't know why we're trying to pass judgement on it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

A £350m p.a product business for a £30bn p.a company. There are people with post-docs and even accountants in this thread. You cheeky twerp.

 

The legal requirement for disclosure by public limited companies is very limited so unless you work at the club or are mystic meg, it doesn't matter if your Leonhard Euler, you can't comment effectively.

 

Plus if there was such people in this thread they would be able to show that players supposed wages are not as high as people think, and in any case aren't affecting the financial wellbeing of the club.

 

They would also be able to tell us the financial advice such a business would be privy to.  But since there are no posts of this nature...

 

Owen isnt on over 100k?

Dyer isnt on around 85K?

Parker isnt worth less than he is on?

 

Of course i can comment on wages and about the structure of wages within the club. As Dave says, there is an element of speculation but that is backed up on here by every single public utterance by the club and talk in the papers.

 

The public disclosure rules of listed companies are fairly straightforward, i dont need them pointed out really.

 

What exactly is your point in relation to what people have posted? I am aware that there is no 100% certainty about the wage structure but enough is known publicly about what this club pays for people to consider alternative structures. You havent really added to this debate tbh.

 

Owens effectively on £50k actually.  When he's on £100k a week he will be playing (hopefully) and contributing to the team.  Are people forgetting he effectively is the reason we were in the UEFA cup this year?  And no-one outside the club knows the amount he brings in merchandise and exposure and exposure = advertising.

 

Dyer probably is on that but he's a good player and is one of the exceptions to the rule.  Parker hasn't fully lived up to expectations which is difficult to predict when discussing contracts.

 

In any case, I don't deny that a handful (and it is a handful) of players are on high wages but the whole point of the thread is that there is a wage crisis.  I don't believe there is for one minute.  And I don't believe we pay significantly over the odds in general for our player wages.

 

I see spurs are being hailed as financial geniuses.  They have less employees than us and still spend over £42 million on staff.  If their players are getting so low a wage what are the tea lady's on?  250k a year?  Again, people quoting actual salaries for Spurs players without having inside knowledge.  What is the point.  How can we have a debate when people make up figures?

 

And Spurs' chairman gets paid 50% more than Shepherd.  No-one seems to be bothered there either.  I would rather be paying money on wages than the chairman.

 

Speculate all you want tbh, I can't stop anyone.  I can have a bloody good laugh at the thread though.

 

And when did I point out any disclosure rules?  I said they were limited in order to explain that you get given a total and not individual employee figures.  No need to get arrogant about it.

 

My point is simple.

 

In my opinion there is no wage crisis or anything like it.  The majority of this forum don't know enough about business (i'm not saying I do) and even if you do, unless you have access to Newcastle's accounts, and every other club in the country you can't say Butt, Emre, Taylor or anyone else get paid way over market value.

[ChezGiven]

Quote the arrogant part of my post if you can and i'll have a right laugh pointing it out in every other post you have made in this thread.

 

The original post had a ? anyway. Still no idea what you have contributed to the debate

[Raconteur]

Owens effectively on £50k actually.  When he's on £100k a week he will be playing (hopefully) and contributing to the team.  Are people forgetting he effectively is the reason we were in the UEFA cup this year?  And no-one outside the club knows the amount he brings in merchandise and exposure and exposure = advertising.

 

Dyer probably is on that but he's a good player and is one of the exceptions to the rule.  Parker hasn't fully lived up to expectations which is difficult to predict when discussing contracts.

 

In any case, I don't deny that a handful (and it is a handful) of players are on high wages but the whole point of the thread is that there is a wage crisis.  I don't believe there is for one minute.  And I don't believe we pay significantly over the odds in general for our player wages.

 

I see spurs are being hailed as financial geniuses.  They have less employees than us and still spend over £42 million on staff.  If their players are getting so low a wage what are the tea lady's on?  250k a year?  Again, people quoting actual salaries for Spurs players without having inside knowledge.  What is the point.  How can we have a debate when people make up figures?

 

And Spurs' chairman gets paid 50% more than Shepherd.  No-one seems to be bothered there either.  I would rather be paying money on wages than the chairman.

 

Speculate all you want tbh, I can't stop anyone.  I can have a bloody good laugh at the thread though.

 

And when did I point out any disclosure rules?  I said they were limited in order to explain that you get given a total and not individual employee figures.  No need to get arrogant about it.

 

My point is simple.

 

In my opinion there is no wage crisis or anything like it.  The majority of this forum don't know enough about business (i'm not saying I do) and even if you do, unless you have access to Newcastle's accounts, and every other club in the country you can't say Butt, Emre, Taylor or anyone else get paid way over market value.

 

No doubt you can spot the irony of the two bolded comments - or can provide evidence of your assertion?

 

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

Owens effectively on £50k actually.  When he's on £100k a week he will be playing (hopefully) and contributing to the team.  Are people forgetting he effectively is the reason we were in the UEFA cup this year?  And no-one outside the club knows the amount he brings in merchandise and exposure and exposure = advertising.

 

Dyer probably is on that but he's a good player and is one of the exceptions to the rule.  Parker hasn't fully lived up to expectations which is difficult to predict when discussing contracts.

 

In any case, I don't deny that a handful (and it is a handful) of players are on high wages but the whole point of the thread is that there is a wage crisis.  I don't believe there is for one minute.  And I don't believe we pay significantly over the odds in general for our player wages.

 

I see spurs are being hailed as financial geniuses.  They have less employees than us and still spend over £42 million on staff.  If their players are getting so low a wage what are the tea lady's on?  250k a year?  Again, people quoting actual salaries for Spurs players without having inside knowledge.  What is the point.  How can we have a debate when people make up figures?

 

And Spurs' chairman gets paid 50% more than Shepherd.  No-one seems to be bothered there either.  I would rather be paying money on wages than the chairman.

 

Speculate all you want tbh, I can't stop anyone.  I can have a bloody good laugh at the thread though.

 

And when did I point out any disclosure rules?  I said they were limited in order to explain that you get given a total and not individual employee figures.  No need to get arrogant about it.

 

My point is simple.

 

In my opinion there is no wage crisis or anything like it.  The majority of this forum don't know enough about business (i'm not saying I do) and even if you do, unless you have access to Newcastle's accounts, and every other club in the country you can't say Butt, Emre, Taylor or anyone else get paid way over market value.

 

No doubt you can spot the irony of the two bolded comments - or can provide evidence of your assertion?

 

 

plc accounts list director pay

[Raconteur]

plc accounts list director pay

 

That's a good answer!

 

[koven]

Quote the arrogant part of my post if you can and i'll have a right laugh pointing it out in every other post you have made in this thread.

 

The original post had a ? anyway. Still no idea what you have contributed to the debate

 

Well I felt it was arrogant stating your job and then stating that you didn't need the disclosure agreements posted when I didn't post any and didn't intend to.

 

You can point out where I'm arrogant if you like, I don't really care.  I try to post facts or reasonable opinions and keep any vendetta against the board out of my arguments (not aimed at you).

 

The OP may have had a ? but we aren't limited to responding to the OP, I wanted to address some of the other uninformed comments.  I don't have a problem with people saying there is a wage crisis (although I don't agree) so long as it's backed by at least some fact.

 

If you don't think i've added to the debate then fine but I think I have.

 

And if I haven't added anything what have you added?

 

One post about your and others jobs.  An 'I can'.  They're brilliant contributions .

 

No doubt you can spot the irony of the two bolded comments - or can provide evidence of your assertion?

 

Spurs' financial reports.

[Taylor Swift]

Heard Berbatov is only on 22k/week!!

[Guest Gemmill]

If you divide are entire wage bill by the 28 or so full time squad players it comes out at about £35k each a week.

 

 

Ok then.  Look at most of the players in that 28 (Here's some just for example - Bramble, Taylor, Huntington, Pattison, Bernard, Harper, Milner, Carr, Babayaro, Ameobi, Sibierski, Edgar).  Would you pay them £35k a week?  No, and I doubt we do for a lot of that list, which just goes to show how much we ARE overpaying a good chunk of the squad.  With your ridiculous argument you've actually provided further evidence that we are paying way over the odds on wages to certain members of the squad.  There are maybe 10 or 11 players in the squad that I could reasonably put on £35k+.  That the average for the full 28 is £35k tells me something is not right.

 

Anyway, divide the wage bill by whatever number you like.  It's still too high as a percentage of turnover.  Then use your brain and imagine what the average would be if we stopped paying players over the odds - because whether you like it or not, we ARE paying players over the odds, as you've proven with your little exercise above.  Reducing the cost base is key whether the current average wage is £35k or not.

 

[ChezGiven]

Quote the arrogant part of my post if you can and i'll have a right laugh pointing it out in every other post you have made in this thread.

 

The original post had a ? anyway. Still no idea what you have contributed to the debate

 

Well I felt it was arrogant stating your job and then stating that you didn't need the disclosure agreements posted when I didn't post any and didn't intend to.

 

You can point out where I'm arrogant if you like, I don't really care.  I try to post facts or reasonable opinions and keep any vendetta against the board out of my arguments (not aimed at you).

 

The OP may have had a ? but we aren't limited to responding to the OP, I wanted to address some of the other uninformed comments.  I don't have a problem with people saying there is a wage crisis (although I don't agree) so long as it's backed by at least some fact.

 

If you don't think i've added to the debate then fine but I think I have.

 

And if I haven't added anything what have you added?

 

One post about your and others jobs.  An 'I can'.  They're brilliant contributions .

 

 

9 posts in the thread before i spoke to you. I was reacting to your arrogant statement that no on in this thread knows how to run a multi-million pound business or had taken account of the fact that disclosure rules means player wages are not publicly known.

 

Then you backed this up with a shit argument which Gemmill has nicely taken apart. Hes also good with numbers.

 

Anyway your whole argument is utter shit as every financial observer of the football business and those within the business themselves have regularly expressed concerns about escalating player wages. As i said earlier in the thread, its a problem in the top flight of the game and we are an example of that problem with respect to a number of players. 

[Howaythelads]

Koven makes good sense, imo. Here we have a classic example of one person offering a different view being slated by everybody else simply because he doesn't agree with everybody else. He makes very good point, some of you just don't want to hear an alternative comment though.

 

I think it is true that when looking at overseas player the club has to up the ante to attract these players away from the Capital. I think this is almost certain to be true no matter how much people may not want to believe it.

[Guest Gemmill]

Koven makes good sense, imo. Here we have a classic example of one person offering a different view being slated by everybody else simply because he doesn't agree with everybody else. He makes very good point, some of you just don't want to hear an alternative comment though.

 

I think it is true that when looking at overseas player the club has to up the ante to attract these players away from the Capital. I think this is almost certain to be true no matter how much people may not want to believe it.

 

We're not talking about overseas players though are we?  I mean we're overpaying Luque, but we're also overpaying a lot of homegrown players too.

 

By the way, look at koven's posting style.  He wanted a reaction from people and he got one.  Anyway, my only response to him was to dismantle his "£35k average wage is fine" argument, when clearly the majority of our squad should be nowhere near £35k a week.  28 players at an average wage of £35k a week is absolutely mental.

[ChezGiven]

Isnt that the problem though HTL, the sort of player who only accepts to play for the club for a premium?

 

I think the general feeling in this thread is that, given the actual ability of players like Parker, Dyer, Luque etc, they are being overpaid and that a performance related payment structure would be better.

 

I agree that attracting people to the club is hard i just think they should be remunerated so that they get the premium if they actually play and perform. 

[Guest Gemmill]

Isnt that the problem though HTL, the sort of player who only accepts to play for the club for a premium?

 

 

Exactly.  I think I made a similar point earlier on or in another thread - if we can't attract these players without overpaying them, then we can't attract these players full stop.  We need to accept that - that's fans as well as the board.

[Parky]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

[Parky]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

 

Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details.

[Parky]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

 

Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details.

 

You tease.

[Parky]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

 

Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details.

 

You tease.

 

I'll accept a PM.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

 

Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details.

 

You tease.

 

I'll accept a PM.

 

Put it this way, they can afford to go large at McDonalds once in a while.

[Parky]

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours.

Although with a turnover of £144m for that year.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm

 

In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

 

 

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic.

 

I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential!

 

Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

 

Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details.

 

You tease.

 

I'll accept a PM.

 

Put it this way, they can afford to go large at McDonalds once in a while.

 

[Guest Knightrider]

The average Premiership wage is £13,000 a week, what is wors again? Crisis... NAH NOT US MAN

[koven]

If you divide are entire wage bill by the 28 or so full time squad players it comes out at about £35k each a week.

 

 

Ok then.  Look at most of the players in that 28 (Here's some just for example - Bramble, Taylor, Huntington, Pattison, Bernard, Harper, Milner, Carr, Babayaro, Ameobi, Sibierski, Edgar).  Would you pay them £35k a week?  No, and I doubt we do for a lot of that list, which just goes to show how much we ARE overpaying a good chunk of the squad.  With your ridiculous argument you've actually provided further evidence that we are paying way over the odds on wages to certain members of the squad.  There are maybe 10 or 11 players in the squad that I could reasonably put on £35k+.  That the average for the full 28 is £35k tells me something is not right.

 

Anyway, divide the wage bill by whatever number you like.  It's still too high as a percentage of turnover.  Then use your brain and imagine what the average would be if we stopped paying players over the odds - because whether you like it or not, we ARE paying players over the odds, as you've proven with your little exercise above.  Reducing the cost base is key whether the current average wage is £35k or not.

 

 

Did you decide to stop reading there? lol

 

If you would read just the next line I explained how each player is not on £35k a week average.  That was an oversimplification.  Those players would be on £35k a week if they were the only people employed at the club. Does Harper work in the club shop when Given plays?

 

We have something like 800 employees not 28.  Take off the wages of everyone else and that £35 a week is obviously going to drop.

 

And do I think those players deserve to be on even £20k a week?  Of course not, but what i'm trying to point out is that it isn't unusual and it isn't detrimental to the clubs financial health, yet.  All players get overpaid in the premier league.

 

Some people have said that Spurs are doing the right thing.  Well they pay £42 million in wages, have only 300 employees and make less money than us.  Now who overpays?

 

I don't know why people think that players wander into a board room and demand £60k a week and get it.  The figures don't bear that out.

 

Then you backed this up with a s*** argument which Gemmill has nicely taken apart. Hes also good with numbers.

 

But not so good with words?