Rich

I appreciate this, OML, and I do share some of your concerns (although to an obvious lesser degree), but as I've mentioned, what if the mooted £6M-£7M player had happened? We've agreed that it's all speculation, but there is as much evidence to say we do have fairly decent cash to spend on the defence from the media than there is to dismiss it. Sam himself has said that we've had set-backs and he said last week that there had been "loads of bids" in for players, or something very similar. Which does point to a certain amount of money being in the pot, even if it is left over from TV revenue or previous club cash. It's just with you, personally, I realise you can see things from both sides and you're not steadfast in one opinion/blighted by any agendas. Which is why it frustrates me more when I see you making the sort of comments you are, it's nothing personal. It's not that the concerns themselves are daft, it's just the way you weren't taking in any of the surrounding/contributing factors. I do understand that it may be because you don't have the time/will to be making marathon posts whenever you contribute here, but it's my day off and I've fuck all else to do 'til after 5pm, so forgive me.

NE5, I fear you've just dug yourself a hole that is going to be fairly hard to climb out of. On Ashley not spending his "own" money... What if the club has no money, though? We finished 14th, we have not qualified for Europe, our wage bill is astronomical, the season tickets have not all been sold. If this was Freddy Shepherd in control on July 30th 2007 and we'd brought in Viduka, Geremi, Barton and Rozehnal for the players (wasters) that we released/sold am I completely "wide of the mark" in thinking you'd currently be defending him to the hilt? Now, I do understand that in this alternate universe some of the same people who are defending the new board might well be castigating Freddy by now, despite there being 32 days of the transfer window remaining. I know it's not just you in this ongoing "Shepherd" thing, it takes more than one to tango, but hear me out. Why is it so different now that it is Mike Ashley and Chris Mort running the club? Apparently, none of you have "agendas" for/against the previous board (hoho), but would I be entirely wrong to say that today, if Shepherd was still here, that some of you in this debate would be doing exactly the same as you are now, albeit on opposite sides of the divide? If Shepherd was still here and there was no money left in the coffers because of Souness or whoever would you be currently complaining about the board not backing the manager? What makes it so different now, if you don't want Ashley to spend his own money? Surely if it is purely club money that we're talking about then Mort/Ashley cannot be blamed for not offering the manager anything? Or should they take out more loans/get a bigger overdraft/accumulate more debt in order to give Sam Allardyce the money that he wants? Surely this would have been Freddy's only option? Him not being as "rich" as Mike Ashley, and all. Personally I do expect Ashley to put his own money into the club, and I'm damn sure the majority of this message board expect exactly the same, even if it's just money to clear the debts and make us self-sufficient in the longterm. As ohmelads has said to me, and as I've said elsewhere, none of us know the ramifications of the takeover or the current financial issues that the club is operating with. Not completely, at least. To me it seems like you're using this to lampoon the new owner where, if Shepherd were still here, you'd be praising him to the hilt for already have brought in 4 good-looking players to replace players who some I know for a fact you weren't overly keen on (Parker, Bramble) while still actively looking at bringing in MORE players (which we are currently doing). I understand that you're attempting to play devil's advocate here, but I can't help but feel you've played your hand far too early and have defeated yourself with your latest post. I know you do want what's best for this club at heart, you always have, but this crusade you seem to be on regarding the new takeover isn't doing you any favours, especially when you've got barely any evidence to back it up aside from what Big Sam has been saying in the media. Like Nut said, it makes more sense to discuss this on September 1st, but this "it's different this summer" nonsense is not going to fly, because if it IS different it's worse, not better, especially where club finances are concerned (not taking Ashley's own money into account, like you said yourself you won't do.)

I suspect we are being wound up I have had my suspicions. Saying that, based on what I've heard of our PA Guy while at SJP, it would not surprise me if this was actually him...

I'm sure there are various factors behind the lack of money. It might be the review or the need to reduce the wage budget, we might be waiting to bring in a DoF or it might simply be because Mort is new to this industry and wants to know where he's putting Ashley's money. Truth is we don't know. You don't know and I don't know. Rather than speculate pointlessly all day about things we don't know (or "missing your points" as you call it), I've voiced my frustration over those things which I do know. You're right, I won't bother wasting my time. I have never claimed to know about this, much like I never claim to "know" about anything else. Everything that is debated on here is usually based on nothing more than speculation - sometimes speculation of the worst kind. But I'm not the one jumping to conclusions and worrying about speculation, like you are. You claim to "know" that we're not going to spend money on the defence, when I could easily point to the speculated £6-7M bid we recently had accepted for a Premiership defender, only for us to be turned down. So the truth is, that you don't "know" at all what the financial side of things is like and for all you "know" this mooted story about the centre-half could be utter bollocks from Oliver, again. Take a step back and realise how daft your previous post now looks, when you've jumped to a steadfast conclusion ("Penny-pinching in defence again. Will this club ever learn?") based upon a sentence in an Alan Oliver article which starts with "I believe..." and then criticised me for speculating about things that I don't "know". If you do "know" that this is true and that we are, in fact, penny-pinching on the defence then I apologise. But to me it seems like you're pointlessly speculating on something that you can't have any sure knowledge of at all... aside from what Alan Oliver has written. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Awfully contradictory from what I can see.

@ohmelads (and prior to the traditional five-minute later "edit") Fantastic debating again, completely missing the major points and picking two things out at random for a bit of "tit for tat". Utter waste of time, man. Not sure saying there might not be money available because of the "strategic review", multi-million pound company being completely bought out by one investor during the transfer window, potential previous mess/debts left by the last board (not just Shepherd) is entirely simplistic, in all honesty. Certainly scratches the surface a bit more than saying "we never spend money on the defence". People could point to £9M for Woodgate, £8M for Boumsong, etc. (and have done in the past.) If the money isn't there... surely it couldn't be simply because Ashley/Mort aren't comfortable releasing millions upon millions while they decided what route to go with the football club/earmark how much investment is needed? Surely they're not looking at our wage bill and thinking "Jesus Christ, we might need to get this down to a suitable operating level" before we bring in any more massive earners? Do people honestly think we're that much worse off than we were this time last year under an arguably worse manager with worse injuries, a European campaign to comprehend, a lot of bad feeling around the club because of the chairman, etc? I understand some people are looking at West Ham and Man City and thinking "Hmmmm, that looks exciting!", but am I alone in being fairly glad that we seem to be doing things in a bit more of a patient and measured way? Do I need to remind people again that there are 32 days left for transfers to be conducted and that every player we've brought in is arguably better than the one's that they've replaced?

As I said, but having a board who's manager is coming out in the press and saying "they know nothing about football" doesn't look too good does it ? I didn't expect Ashley to bankroll the club, unlike others, but this could be a bad situation. They have got to wise up, and you have to face the real possibility that they may not have the ambition you thought they would. Time will tell. I don't have any preconceptions about them, that's the whole point. I didn't buy into this "£50M budget", "unlimited fee for a megastar" stuff and I don't buy into the fact that Allardyce is now getting nothing. I can understand people getting twitchy with the lack of activity, but from the looks of it things are certainly not being missed out on because of the want of trying. As you say, time will tell. I do see your concerns about their lack of football knowledge and it's obviously the case otherwise Allardyce wouldn't have said it, but I'm not sure what else we expected? Was Shepherd too ill to be of any real use to them in the early stages? Did they discover some things on his part that were unforgivable enough to get shot of him straight away? Did he want to help them anyway? We don't know the full story, as always, which is a fucking killer on here. If I can speculate on a personal level: to me it seems like David Dein would have been their ideal solution to this problem because of his knowledge and it certainly seems like they've been forced into biting off more than they can chew on a personal level (especially Mort) after this didn't come off... and also that Big Sam might be doing the jobs of a "DOF" and a manager at the moment. Something, which if true, will obviously need resolving sooner rather than later - but on both Sam and the board's terms, not just one or the other. This obviously shows that I do have personal concerns about things, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know better than those involved at the club currently and I certainly don't know what they do about the takeover/finances/etc. I can appreciate, however, that the changes we've seen/will see are absolutely massive and will perhaps eclipse anything we've seen before at this club, yourself included. All we can really do is hope for the best for now. The optimism I feel is solely down to Allardyce. The board have done absolutely nothing yet. I hope they do. If they don't do any more, or generate more money, than the old board, what then ? If they don't back him so much, what then ? Face facts, so far they haven't shown much inclination. They know nowt about football, that in itself is pretty damning. You don't have to know anything about football to know that you need to back your managers if you want success and get among the money, if thats his objective. I've no doubt that there has been some changes, and will be more, but at the moment they appear to be Allardyce inspired ones, unless he goes. I've never been one of your critics, mate, but as Gemmill says you're coming across as fucking desperate to whip out the "I told you so!" posts at the minute. It's not on from somebody who has always apparently had the best interests of the club at heart. To me it seems like you're putting being "right" above wanting this new regime to work. You're ignoring all of the sensible counter-points that people are making about it being early days and about things going on that we can't possibly know about/comprehend and sticking to your party line of "Shepherd good, Ashley probably bad". It's not debating, it's ramming your beliefs down people's throats and praying to God that they're proven right. I've already agreed with you on the footballing knowledge thing and I offered you some material which you've completely ignored, I've admitted that I can see why people are becoming concerned and I've said that I can understand, to an extent, some of the opinions that you and Baggio and others have. But you have to admit that you're all being extremely quick to judge here after all the changes that have just happened. It's not going to be an overnight solution. People are also VERY quick to forget that this time last year we were in exactly the same boat under Freddy Shepherd and Glenn Roeder. Ashley and Allardyce are going to have to go some fucking distance to top Duff, Martins, Rossi, Sibierski and Bernard for dealings this summer after losing Shearer, Bowyer, Faye, Boumsong and Chopra from the first team squad. What was our net spend last summer, by the way? £7.5M according to NUFC.com, and that was with European football as well! It sounds very familiar to me so far this summer, albeit last summer we didn't have the club being taken over during the window. Although with over a month of transfers still remaining, we've already brought in two more players than we had by this time last year and seem to be making breakthroughs in other departments as well. And it's only July! This tit-for-tat stuff is a piece of piss, like. I suppose you're alright though because it's win-win with your current stance, if you genuinely do want some success under Ashley. If it goes tits-up you can revel in your glory of telling people "so" and if it goes the way we all hope it does then you can revel in the club's glory, with the rest of us. Great stuff.

Good signing IMO, stick a heart rate monitor on his chest, sort out his nutrition and use a bit of psychology on him and he'll be like Matthias Sammer by August 11th. The post where the month-long wind-up attempt went one step too far.

Fair enough, but you've yet again completely ignored the relevant points that numerous people have made about the very recent takeover, the club's debt, the difficulty we might be having attracting players, etc. It's a waste of time looking at things on such a simplistic level, man. Ashley de-listed the club 12 days ago and alright, we might not have money in the immediate short-term while this infamous "review" is undertaken and while things are sorted out from top-to-bottom (I notice the board are backing Allardyce's backroom rebuilding plans, which won't be exactly "cheap" and which people seem to completely be ignoring while they claim he's going to be forced out.) Where is it written that you absolutely positively need to spend big, solid money to do well/build a solid foundation? Surely you can appreciate it that it might take more than 12 days (or a month or two at the most since they started buying shares/taking full control) to come in and decided what route to take a multi-million pound business. As Gemmill said, it's unfortunate that it's happened in the summer and it's perhaps "unfortunate" that the likes of Man City don't seem to be suffering the same problems, but perhaps they're not doing things the right way and we are. How many of us were calling for a massive upheaval at this football club just a few short months ago? Well we're getting it and people still aren't fucking happy because we're not doing that AND spending millions at the same time. Beggars belief and shows us up as supporters.

If this happens and you have played a role in it, a group-lynching might well be on the cards judging by past reaction to such suggestions on here

As I said, but having a board who's manager is coming out in the press and saying "they know nothing about football" doesn't look too good does it ? I didn't expect Ashley to bankroll the club, unlike others, but this could be a bad situation. They have got to wise up, and you have to face the real possibility that they may not have the ambition you thought they would. Time will tell. I don't have any preconceptions about them, that's the whole point. I didn't buy into this "£50M budget", "unlimited fee for a megastar" stuff and I don't buy into the fact that Allardyce is now getting nothing. I can understand people getting twitchy with the lack of activity, but from the looks of it things are certainly not being missed out on because of the want of trying. As you say, time will tell. I do see your concerns about their lack of football knowledge and it's obviously the case otherwise Allardyce wouldn't have said it, but I'm not sure what else we expected? Was Shepherd too ill to be of any real use to them in the early stages? Did they discover some things on his part that were unforgivable enough to get shot of him straight away? Did he want to help them anyway? We don't know the full story, as always, which is a fucking killer on here. If I can speculate on a personal level: to me it seems like David Dein would have been their ideal solution to this problem because of his knowledge and it certainly seems like they've been forced into biting off more than they can chew on a personal level (especially Mort) after this didn't come off... and also that Big Sam might be doing the jobs of a "DOF" and a manager at the moment. Something, which if true, will obviously need resolving sooner rather than later - but on both Sam and the board's terms, not just one or the other. This obviously shows that I do have personal concerns about things, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know better than those involved at the club currently and I certainly don't know what they do about the takeover/finances/etc. I can appreciate, however, that the changes we've seen/will see are absolutely massive and will perhaps eclipse anything we've seen before at this club, yourself included. All we can really do is hope for the best for now.

We were told a Premiership "stopper" had rejected us for a rumoured £6M-7M price (which must have surely been speculation) and Silvestre's name came out later. I'm not saying it was definitely him, merely highlighting the fact that we don't know exactly who it was or how much we'd actually bid for that particular player. Or if it happened at all.

I'll have until at least September 1st 2008, if that's alright. Shepherd had a decade here to get things right, and he didn't start losing me until towards the very end despite some serious ups and downs along the way. In fact, with him bringing Allardyce in he'd as good as won me round again to the point where I didn't mind him having one final roll of the dice on his terms (but bear in mind my complete ignorance of the financial side of things, which some say were getting very worrying.) Ashley's had about a month here, hasn't yet done anything to be majorly criticised for (outside of what's been speculated) and I haven't got an opinion either way on him just yet. Surely that's fair enough?

Baines considered moving to Sunderland (took him over a week to finally decide not to go there), so yes I think its extremely safe to say he'd move here in a flash, he's obviously looking to move but nobody bar Sunderland have offered for him, which tells its own story.. Shorey, well that's less obvious but again I think he'd come. And yes we do have the money available for either player, we offered more for Heinze then it would take to sign either of them. It's been confirmed that we didn't make a bid for Heinze, Sam just said he would be interested. Confirmed by who? After the "7 million bid for a defender" story was reported I seem to remember several papers reporting that it had been Heinze and he'd rejected the move. I thought it turned out to be Silvestre and that the money wasn't £7M?

What is this "that good" you keep talking about Its meaningless without a definition. That good as in not the quality that we need at left back. You're going to have to deal with the fact that we're not going to spend signficant money on a proven left-back, Baggio. Why not? Because Ashley won't back his manager like Shepherd did? He only de-listed the club 12 days ago, man. What are people expecting here? None of us know what state the finances are in and what Ashley's plans for the club money-wise are, it's far too early to say. Did Shepherd back his manager in every single transfer window? I'm not one of these anti-Shepherd folk, I can appreciate the good that he did for us, but this comparison is ridiculous and intended to do nothing but stir trouble as far as I can see. Ashley hasn't even had full control of this club for a month yet, has he? People expecting miracles at the click of a finger are asking an awful lot. I'd rather we were run properly and that the club was given a full and rigorous "going over" before we start chucking cash at players who have the same chance of flopping here as free-transfers/cheaper players. Lay the groundwork first and move onto the bigger things later, sort of like Spurs have done. I'd be interested to see what they did after ENIC took over and look at where they are now (backed by a company with a lot less money to offer than Ashley and inhabiting a smaller ground, etc.) If you notice, I'm not praising Ashley or criticising him just yet, I haven't pinned my colours to the flag either way because there is simply not enough to go on. So this isn't simply an "anyone's better than FS" sort of post. It's a stop being hysterical, find something else to occupy your time instead of worrying about the Toon and give the bloke a fucking chance sort of post. I appreciate that certain people on here might simply be trying to instigate debate by being contrary and in order to occupy themselves in moments of bordeom (sound familiar?) but it's wearing me thin, and I'm barely on here compared to some so I dread to think how others are feeling.

I think Distin knocked us back because of Roeder, did he not? It's another one of those "conflicting reports" things, but I wouldn't be surprise if he'd opted for Pompey over us because of Shepherd still being here (after the contract wrangle) and seeing Roeder as our gaffer, rather than us never being interested. Did Beardo not say he was "nailed-on" to sign over the summer? Did we miss out because of Roeder's unstable position? Distin would have been the ideal player to get, Nut, from all accounts. Tall, experienced, quick, left-footed... bloody shame.

Allegedly.

I'm particularly gutted about Distin, especially considering Sam's recent comments on him. Ben Haim was one we were never going to win. Add Distin to the current equation and things look an awful lot better.

Good job you edited. Only noticed that just before i clicked on 'Post'. I realised with my track record that you might take that the wrong way so I was quick to rectify it

Also, in regards to this, he can't be much worse than Bernard was for us last season unless he's also criminally unfit/injured for the entire campaign. Which, to me, equals further squad improvement if nothing else.

YG: Also blatantly obvious that too many people these days come from the Football Manager school of opinions (not you this time, mind!), been guilty of this myself in the past but starting to see past the trees more and more. Teasy: As for striking Baines/Shorey from the list, we couldn't possibly know if Baines wants to leave the North-West/Shorey the South, or if we could afford them, etc. I'm not sure if it's as simple as "Oh, Newcastle are interested... see you later!" these days, especially during the current (rather confusing) climate.

I didn't think he was particularly good yesterday, had a very good view of him for the second half as well. However, I am firmly in the Carr-is-a-useless-twat brigade, so that might explain it. Still seems to spend most of his time backing off with his arms outstretched and then whinging at other players when he's the one at fault. Was blatantly at fault for Celtic's goal on Thursday (showed McGeady inside and onto his strong foot, schoolboy defending and he should fucking know how to defend against a lad who he's played in Irish training sessions on many an occasion) and was arse-raped throughout by his compatriot - who was pretty good, in fairness to our still-fairly-chunky RB. Like I said, it could just be bile/bias, but the bloke still has a long way to go before I'm personally convinced about him as our first-choice full-back. Won't complain if he's used as a squad player though, as he is good enough for that role. Definitely better than he was this time last season and as Alex said, was one of the bright parts of the end of the last campaign.

Blatantly a fall-back option. He could have simply exhausted his options at home who he thought were his immediate best bets (Bridge, Heinze, Silvestre, Shorey, Baines?) and had to move outside of the "experienced Premiership defender" bracket, which is exactly what he said he might have to do last week. He hasn't been able to get in his ideal targets and so has moved onto what he probably sees as the "next best thing" - isn't this a good way of working? Isn't that how we ended up with Martins? Whether this is because they've all turned us down or we can't afford them is anyone's guess.

In the Boukary Drame story on the back of the Chronicle today is a line in which our own Mystic Meg, the infamous Alan Oliver, predicts that before Drame signs we'll be seeing an experienced central defender joining us at SJP on a free-transfer. Here are the exact words: Let the speculation commence.

Robson Green? Oh no, I've got it... LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE! (PJ and Duncan)

The only other season where I've received this letter was the year just gone, where we didn't sell the full allocation of ST's for the entire season from what I could see. I'd be very surprised if there are that few left, especially considering the fact that only the East Stand and the Paddocks have what they are calling "limited numbers" and they make up two fairly miniscule portions of the ground.