Toon Amy

Can you post the actual results up please James?

Just saw a post from Toon Amy that made me think. Under SBR we played fairly poor football for his first two seasons (finishing 11th and 11th after inheriting a team that had finished 13th) and his signings didn't all go to plan (Gavilan, Bassedas, Cort). We were improving, just not at the rate everyone wanted, and we had a top class England striker to lead the line.

 

As it turned out we were just two spot on signings away from the top 4, and although Robert and Bellamy were expensive they weren't outrageously so. We solidified as a unit until we got to the point where we just needed two class players to propel ourselves to the same level.

 

Are we as fans simply being impatient with Sam, or are the similarities not there/unfair on SBR? Surely it takes more than one close season and 12 games to turn a mess around?

 

think our results  in our first 12 games were a lot better than this

 

In his first season, he rescued United from almost certain relegation, in his second season United finished 11th but would have been a lot higher had the Club not suffered such cruel luck with injuries and in 2001/02, led the Magpies to fourth place in the Premiership, and with it, a place in the Qualifying Round of the Champions League.

Well he didn't improve on it in the second season, and still got given time. Which turned out to be worth it, as we went into the Champions League.

As for the results being a lot better than this, no they weren't. I just checked.

the first 12 games under Robson  and Allardyce were exactly equal. 18 points.

13 games in. (Which is what we have actually played) Robson just edges it with 19 points to Allardyces 18.

Here's Bobby Robson's first 13 game stats.

took over 2nd September 1999:

<Snip - May have been 1999, but these fixtures still have copyrights>

Low points obviously losing to Bradford and Coventry.  High points obviously the Sheff Wed victory, giving us the feel good factor. All in all, up to the 13 games, only the difference of 1 loss being a draw for Robson.

The performances may have been better, (or we remember it more kindly) but the results and points were very similar in total.

Robson did not make so many changes straight away (I think the transfer window was closed when he took over?) Changes which most people welcomed by the way. For that reason alone it would normally take time to get consistency, in ideal circumstances you would have to be lucky to hit the ground running with form players who just fit in straight away. Then there are injuries so it is not ideal.

I think that Joey Barton was a big part of the plan, and being out injured with a metatarsal injury meant that he has had to change the plan. Also because he was not able to get the Premier League defenders he wanted, we have had to buy foreign ones, and they don't immediately adapt to the Premier League pace. That is not to say they never will, but they will have bad days.

For that reason alone we need to show some patience with the players, if not the manager.

I think he could do himself some favours by going back to basics. Perhaps Robson understood this better than Sam Allardyce but I am not entirely convinced that he is not capable of it.

For whatever reason, things were not going too badly results wise up until the Reading game, but they have got considerably worse since then. This coincides with a couple of injuries and Sam changing the team around because of a lack of form. I think that he has made some mistakes that could have been avoided, but all managers make mistakes at some point, usually in the early days.

Overall I think that Sam probably has tried to do what he knows works best, and up until a month ago it was working (not brilliantly but we were getting results. Now it isn't and he needs to rethink and adapt to the expectations and our style is different to that of Bolton.

I don't believe he is incapable of it. Perhaps stubborn, but another example is David Moyes, who in his second season went the first month without a victory and spent the whole season near the relegation zone. Some would have given up on him, but again he is building a good team now and they are no longer playing like Everton/Bolton (I used to think they played a very similar defensive boring game)

Allardyce is not going to be the same exactly as Robson, or Moyes, but I think they are good examples of why managers don't always get it right straight away. There are usually reasons why it goes wrong at first, notwithstanding that players aren't robots, they have form issues, injuries, settling in periods etc... I think we should show some patience and see what happens.

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

Last season we finished 13th.

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

If you went to the cinema to watch an action packed movie and the manager then decided to screen Mary Poppins (no slur on Shearer intended) after he had taken your money, I think an adverse reaction from the audience would be well and truly merited don't you? 

I don't think that's a particularly apt analogy tbh.

Didn't you know football games were all pre-written to a script? No neither did I.

Sven walked into the job with half his defence already established/settled. He has also had his best players fit for most of the season.

 

He also gambled on a load of foreign players that have hit the ground running in style.

 

Better manager too, which helps...

Also spent more...

 

Their away record is exactly the same as ours.... their home form is excellent, granted, but I wonder how much the "12th man" has an effect on that as well. They cheer the team, while ours get booed and jeered (way before the Liverpool match by the way)

 

I hope that Sam gets the season at least so we can see where we are in comparison to them. I have a feeling actually Sven isn't so much better, if at all. Just more experienced.

 

He never immediately got success at his other clubs but somewhere along the way the clubs showed patience. As should we.

 

Nonsense tbh. Sorry.

 

I was in with the City fans when we played them and it was virtually identical to SJP (pre-Liverpool, of course...). Moaned when things went wrong, booed when the opposition scored, cheered when they did good things. Just the same.

 

You might have a point about them in terms of the team being on a roll, but other than that it's no different than at our place IMO.

oh well I stand corrected on that one then.

Citeh fans don't seem to expect as much to me, and I'm convinced that the weight of expectation has it's part to play, but I accept what you say.

Sven walked into the job with half his defence already established/settled. He has also had his best players fit for most of the season.

 

He also gambled on a load of foreign players that have hit the ground running in style.

 

Better manager too, which helps...

Also spent more...

Their away record is exactly the same as ours.... their home form is excellent, granted, but I wonder how much the "12th man" has an effect on that as well. They cheer the team, while ours get booed and jeered (way before the Liverpool match by the way)

I hope that Sam gets the season at least so we can see where we are in comparison to them. I have a feeling actually Sven isn't so much better, if at all. Just more experienced.

He never immediately got success at his other clubs but somewhere along the way the clubs showed patience. As should we.

We played 4-4-2 for the most of it tbf, we were just utter shite.

It was 3-5-2, but they did not keep formation very well.

 

No, more of a 3-4-1-2 but it changed after about half an hour.

 

Quote from Rozehnal - "We actually changed the formation back to 4-4-2 after 15 minutes."

 

oh ok fair enough. But it still left us without a genuine winger didn't it? and if Milner was genuinely tired (which he probably was having played in midweek) then it still narrowed down the options.

We played 4-4-2 for the most of it tbf, we were just utter shite.

It was 3-5-2, but they did not keep formation very well.

Well, i'll stand by my previous post, but i don't think i'd go as far as to say "his only option was to play the team the way he did at the weekend", like you're suggesting Amy. It was a joke of a line-up.

I removed my post but in any case, what alternatives were there?

 

Bear in mind he had 1 fit central defender to choose from.

 

There was a 4-4-2 available.

I know it's possible... that doesn't necessarily mean it is the best of all options. Hindsight is always wonderful.

Who would be the back four?

Carr Beye Cacapa Enrique? No one would like that.

or

Beye Cacapa Edgar Enrique Sam probably didn't want to throw Edgar into a big match.

or

Edgar Beye Cacapa Enrique see above.

or

Geremi Beye Cacapa Enrique

Milner was probably rested on the bench by the way because of his U21 commitments in midweek, so playing Geremi as right back would not enable him to use Milner anyway, if he thought JM's energy levels were very low, so it would still be Smith on the right.

Did you have a better alternative? I know there are, but I am just trying to say that they don't come with guarantees.

Well, i'll stand by my previous post, but i don't think i'd go as far as to say "his only option was to play the team the way he did at the weekend", like you're suggesting Amy. It was a joke of a line-up.

I removed my post but in any case, what alternatives were there?

Bear in mind he had 1 fit central defender to choose from.

I'm farily sure that Milner hasn't told him he's a right winger.

I'm fairly sure he has scored quite a few goals from the left though, including one against Sunderland, and I'm fairly sure he played there a lot for Leeds in the past.

True Faith says - stick.

(long article) (not sure if I am supposed to post it all, if not let me know or edit it down)

CERTAIN PEOPLE I KNOW 

Monday 26th November 2007

With seven goals shipped in the last two home games and unhappiness at several other results this season (i.e. Derby, Reading and the Mackems) it's abundantly clear there are problems aplenty at NUFC where confidence in Sam Allardyce is draining. It is an extremely worrying situation though it has to be said emphatically that those calling for Allardyce to be sacked are offering few suggestions as to who might replace him. As we all know to our bitter experience, we are a club that has found it very easy to sack managers but has little clue as to how to appoint the right man. NUFC appears to be stuck in a perpetual Groundhog Day scenario of sack-a-manager-appoint-a-manager-sack-a-manager with the club treading water whilst those around us put down proper foundations and move forward. With every managerial appointment that fails, the undercurrent is one of decline. It just can't go on.

I looked at the league table this morning (nice to see the Mackems slip into the bottom three by the way) and couldn't help but be struck by the sight of those clubs with a modicum of stability making progress up the table. Everton have had some stop-start seasons under David Moyes but after four or some such seasons look like a pretty handy Premiership side. To our pleasure last Saturday, the Toffees did very well. O'Neill has only been at Villa a season and a bit, hasn't spent spectacularly but there are clear signs of progress. Redknapp has been back at Pompey, spent wisely, built steadily and are widely tipped to for a UEFA Cup spot.

But the real example of clubs getting it right and getting it wrong was at SJP on Saturday.

I remember vividly being at Anfield (it was roasting and the uncovered pale skinned amongst us collected some uncomfortable sun burn to go with the NUFC headache associated) in the Anfield Road End on the last day of the season when we were seeking a point to ensure UEFA Cup qualification in a season where its fair to say we blew two Champions League campaigns in one go - namely SBR's last full term of office. The Partzan penalty shoot out pisser and a campaign which unravelled through a lack of discipline from the brat pack. We hung on and got the point and UEFA Cup football the following season and Liverpool squeaked into the Champions League. The striking thing about that game however was what it meant to both the managers. Gerard Houllier, identified as past his sell-by date, who had brought numerous trophies to Anfield over his five year reign (though no title) was shown the door in a dignified and well ordered fashion. Clearly, the Liverpool board had been doing its homework and appointed Rafael Benitez as his replacement in an effortless succession. Benitez arrived, began bringing in a core of his own players and prepared for the following season. Shepherd made some lame comments about not wanting to be the man who shot Bambi - meaning he lacked the balls to shuffle a clearly shot SBR into retirement. We had a close season of rancour and rumour. SBR, with responsibility but apparently no authority did little to prepare the team for the following season and appeared, in my opinion, to be wholly undermined by Shepherd, who it has been alleged assumed control for the purchase and sale of players. The contrast in the management of Liverpool and Newcastle United could not have been more stark.

The following season, Liverpool, though far from the finished product and carrying enough luck to sink a battleship won the Champions League on a mental night in Istanbul. Newcastle United on the other hand had sold Woodgate to Real Madrid with no replacement lined up, made a bizarre bid for Wayne "only-going-to-one-place-and-it-certainly-wasn't-NUFC" Rooney, sacked SBR early in the season and attempted to appoint a replacement. It is alleged the club was turned down by Steve Bruce, who had signed a new contract with Birmingham in the previous summer and Sam Allardyce who did not wish to leave Bolton during the season and who it is further rumoured could not come to an agreement about building a coaching set up at NUFC similar to the one he had at Bolton, with Shepherd. A return to football for Martin O'Neill as he did the right thing and stayed by his wife's side through her illness didn't happen and further rumours the job was offered to Alan Shearer but was declined also did the rounds. Rumoured to be three games from the sack at Blackburn, the job was offered to Graeme Souness, who naturally accepted. Souness turned NUFC into a joke, his buying of players predominantly via one agent, foolhardy to say the least as the club began to revolve around his supreme vanity and out-dated understanding of the game, man-management and even modern life. He was sacked inevitably and to everyone's amazement Roeder appointed. You all know what happened in the close season - Shepherd went after O'Neill, failed miserably and we stumbled into last season ill-prepared with the inevitable results. Roeder, lamentably out of his depth led NUFC through a car crash of a season.

Years and years of poor management, lack of planning, fluffed decisions, wasted resources and our club run by bluffers, greedy bastards, bull-shitters and inadequates. That cycle has to be broken if Newcastle United is ever to have a future of progress.

This isn't something a lot of you reading this will agree with. There is a hang 'em high mood gathering pace amongst supporters who now have identified Sam Allardyce as the devil incarnate, the root of all of our woes and if we could only get rid of Sam ... You know the rest. Fair enough, far be it from me to act as Allardyce's defence counsel but I will ask the question - if not Sam, then who?

We're busy putting the next issue of true faith together (its out for the Birmingham game) and the editorial team have a major problem. We know there is a strong element of our support who wishes it had never clapped sight on Allardyce. We've given a platform for those views via true faith and we'll continue to do so. We edit the fanzine, we don't censor it. But we've invited several of Allardyce's most vitriolic of critics to put together a piece which might act as a short-list of potential successors to Sam Allardyce. We're after five names. So far, his critics, the lads and lasses calling for Sam's bollocks to be nailed to the top of The Leazes, have fluffed that opportunity. Those of you reading this who think you could oblige need to know one thing - we aren't after a wish-list of celebrity managers. We want a list of names who could realistically be attracted to Newcastle United at this moment in time, whose contracts would allow them to join us and whose career records suggest something approaching success but who may regard coming to Newcastle United as an opportunity. Its easy to rattle down a list of names; Shearer (how many times are we going to ask him before we get the message?), Mourinho (ha-ha-ha), Jol (just left Spurs third bottom), Hitzfeld, Lippi, Capello and any other Euro high achiever who might think its a great idea to come and manage a club which has an unenviable reputation as a managerial graveyard, where there is a huge amount of uncertainly regarding the dosh available to strengthen the squad, which isn't in London or the Champions League, which hasn't won a domestic honour since 1955, with a financial situation which is far from ideal and with a following, though totally devoted, clearly well out of patience.

Without being drawn into a tedious debate about what constitutes a "big club" (yawn) I think we all have to acknowledge, Newcastle United does not have the cachet it might have had under KK or even under SBR. I'd love to delude myself the top players and best managers all over Europe are out their pissing themselves about coming to NUFC but they are not. The best will want to go where they have the best opportunity for success, where they will be developed and where they will be paid the most. Newcastle United, at this moment in time is not that kind of destination and I hate myself for coming to that conclusion. But it is the reality. We've got lots of supporters, we've got a nice stadium but fuck all else. The Academy? Nothing coming through to get excited about and a squad largely made from cast-offs from the bargain basement of European football - that is all Allardyce was able to bring in with the budget he had available.

Any of you out there who fancy getting five names to us as Sam's potential successors, which won't make us piss ourselves laughing, with a strong explanation as to why they would come and how they would succeed, without saying - "give Jose £6bn and I'm certain he'd come here for a couple of years and win the lot" and we'll consider it for publication. Its an 800 word limit. Its got to be well-written and it hasn't got to carry any amount of pre-conditions. Its got to be a workable list. Fancy it? Well done if you are because plenty others have passed on the opportunity - [email protected] - Be quick because we need it sharp.

*

We were a shambles at home to Liverpool. It was a different kind of shambles to Portsmouth and Derby but a shambles nonetheless. Like many I sat on my Mag perch at SJP on Saturday and was utterly bewildered by what I saw. I couldn't tell you what formation we had out and keep a straight face, what the substitutions meant or what the game plan was. I looked at Nigel Pearson on the touch-line and couldn't help but think of those grim photos we used to laugh at of him next to Captain Lager down at The Beasts and West Brom as events overcame him. I looked at Terry McDermott and wondered what this bloke is bringing to the party. Coach? I don't know. There is no doubt Allardyce lost the crowd on Saturday or rather those who love a bit booing and think its okay to join in with the taunts from the away end. Welcome to Celebrity Big Brother Football. We just need Davina McCall outside the main stand at The Milburn bringing out the next sap who has incurred the wrath of the boo-boys into the flash-lights. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to compare the incomparable support we had at Anfield in '84 for that FAC tie on the Friday night and the fractious SJP on Saturday.

We're all entitled to be unhappy at performances like that but I just don't get how allowing yourself to be framed abusing the manager for the idle entertainment of the SKY generation counts as supporting the club. If that sounds sniffy, its not meant to and once again, those who have been booing at SJP since Villa this season can contact us at true faith and make their case as to how its helping Newcastle United Football Club.

*

To quote the manager its a tough period and we have to dig in. He didn't mean the support, he meant the players but he could have been talking to us. Whatever anyone thinks of Sam Alardyce, and remember we aren't his defence counsel, he doesn't talk shite. He has held his hands up and admitted the team were gash when they clearly have been.

We can go two ways. We can delight the club's enemies in the media and give them a nice new juicy story by continuing to slaughter Allardyce, which will have the specific result of making matters much worse or we can get behind the lads as in the days of yore; the away following is beyond compare in its excellence but we can turn SJP into a bear pit, where there is rage and venom in every nook and cranny but it is turned against the opposition rather than in ourselves. Its up to all of us.

Now is the time for good men and women to come to the aid of the club we all love!

Keep On, Keepin' On ...

Amy, it was aimed at James, in case you've not now guessed.

I have guessed now Dave. At first I thought you were the Smiley Police!

I can understand Harry as well, pronunciation and grammar don't really bother me that much especially if English is not his native language. Some English speakers are actually worse!

I don't agree with everything he said mind, but thats ok.

Same to you, you bloody prat.

eh? Who is that aimed at? It doesn't make sense with anything else.

When we bring in Mourinho can we sign Messi aswell? I feel he would probably add something we are lacking at the moment.

I think we should go for Samuel Eto too.

 

I sometimes struggle with the pronunciation also.

Mourhino is free on the marked,he just told the newspapers that he didn`t want the England job,because he wanted to go back to the Premier L,so there is a very good candidate for the Toon job.

Well as far as we know, Mourinho can't manage another Premier League club yet because of clauses that were in his contract. Even if not WHY would he want to manage us when he is waiting for the Barcelona gig?

When we bring in Mourinho can we sign Messi aswell? I feel he would probably add something we are lacking at the moment.

I think we should go for Samuel Eto too.

it's absolutly critical he does the basics. fuck expectations etc his tactics and formations have brought the crowd down on him.

What choices did he have for formation on Saturday though?

We only had 1 fully fit regular central defender.

The only reason I'd be happy with it is that it would mean that he'd not be able to be our manager before he'd proved himself as being capable of doing the job. If he managed that with England (or someone else) then fine,

That's pretty much why I'm open to the idea!

I don't know if he'd be any good, but I just don't know if Capello would be any good either. I don't think Sven was all that good as England manager in the long run. In the light of McClown he looks better, that's all.

Shearer could be if he had the right people around him. As someone else said, Mark Hughes did well at Wales and then moved on to club management. There are probably lots of examples where an ex player has not done well, as there are those who have. Truth is we just don't know until we try it, and like you I would rather it was for England than for us. I'm glad it is not my decision though, and I hope the FA explore ALL the options before deciding.

Can't believe anyone would even consider this when someone like Capello has expressed an interest.

Capello also has negatives though?

 

Real Madrid sacked him even though they won the league because they didn't think his football was entertaining. He plays very defensive football. Can England fans tolerate that?

 

He has a reputation for falling out with players. That could be a good thing, or it could equally be a bad thing. He dropped Beckham for ages when he was in form, just because he had signed up for LA Galaxy. Then he went back on the decision.

 

He doesn't speak English. He can learn that, but at the moment it is a negative.

 

There is a possibility or suspicion that he may have been involved in the Juventus match fixing scandal when they won the Italian title but were disqualified. I don't know for sure if he was, but any suspicion would go against him with the FA wouldn't it?

 

I'm not saying he would be not be a good choice, maybe he would, but it is not quite as black and white as some think it is.

 

Capello for me is quite simply the best club manager of the past two decades, if he was interested we'd be mad not to pursue.

He should definately be considered, and the fact he is so interested and sees it as a challenge should go in his favour.

I'm just trying to point out it is not all positives, and as I said in the edit, club football and International football are not the same thing. Sometimes a club manager makes a good international manager, and sometimes not.

Difficult to know when, but I would feel more confident about the choices if more football people were making the decision instead of businessmen which we have at the FA.

Can't believe anyone would even consider this when someone like Capello has expressed an interest.

Capello also has negatives though?

Real Madrid sacked him even though they won the league because they didn't think his football was entertaining. He plays very defensive football. Can England fans tolerate that?

He has a reputation for falling out with players. That could be a good thing, or it could equally be a bad thing. He dropped Beckham for ages when he was in form, just because he had signed up for LA Galaxy. Then he went back on the decision.

He doesn't speak English. He can learn that, but at the moment it is a negative.

He also has a reputation for having a huge ego. Also could be a good thing, but as we are feeling with Allardyce, maybe not.

There is a possibility or suspicion that he may have been involved in the Juventus match fixing scandal when they won the Italian title but were disqualified. I don't know for sure if he was, but any suspicion would go against him with the FA wouldn't it?

Club football does not always translate to International football.

I'm not saying he would be not be a good choice, maybe he would, but it is not quite as black and white as some think it is.

Michael Owen, also gave his backing to the top scorer in Premier League history.

 

"Alan would certainly command the respect of the team," the injured Owen said in the News of the World.

 

"I haven't spoken to him so I don't know whether he wants it or not. Anyone with that experience and ability would automatically have the respect of the dressing room.

 

"It comes down to whether the FA would appoint someone without managerial experience."

linky

Saw the final two minutes of the game. There was this one little instance where Barton picked the ball up on the left, ran at Babel and totally skinned him. Looked good, quick.

Yet for their 3rd goal, Babel totally skinned Nicky Butt, who is far too overated by most and a key factor in what is going wrong. Reliance on cloggers like him is a recipe for disaster!

 

Why single Butt out? He's not a KEY factor in what is going wrong at all. I'd much rather have him in the team than Emre, Smith or Geremi at the moment.

Simple. Because he loses possession far too often, picks up a yellow card and risks the red card too easily.

 

I do not want Smith in the team either btw, but Geremi and Emre at least can pass the ball.

 

No offence, but did you see how shit he was today, or any time he's played in the last 2 months?

I saw it. He wasn't great, but he was not as bad as Nicky Butt. He should have got forward more, but was too reluctant to do so. Nicky Butt on the other hand, or should I say "Golden Boy Butt", was even worse especially for conceding possession and has been consistently all season. I'm surprised so few others can see it tbh.