Unbelievable

What a goal Pederson! 1-1

Barely ten minutes on the clock at Upton Park and West Ham midfielder Kevin Nolan has been shown a straight red card for a scything tackle on Millwall's Jack Smith. Looks like Hammers manager Sam Allardyce will have to do some reorganising now. Still 0-0.

Checked before I posted, couldn't find anything. Care to point me in the right direction?

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? You never responded to this post from Wullie did you? http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,91227.msg3502484.html#msg3502484 I'd be interested to know what these weaknesses are that you keep banging on about; you keep mentioning the term weaknesses without specifying what you think they are.

Lovely trolling.. Also, this gave me a good laugh: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showpost.php?p=11819917&postcount=22

Agree with all of that. I think he's capable of playing a more simple game without trying to take the entire opposition team on in every move, but as you say, this requires the other attacking players to move intelligently around him. It's no coincidence he's looked poor the last match and a half, considering what he's had to work with up front.

Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player. I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times. I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me? As brilliant as he is he gives the ball away a fair bit when we seem to be in control and have players pushing forward, leaving us exposed to a counter attack. We have got lucky a few times. Personally I would have the lad in the side every week but it's not hard to see why he would give a manager something to think about. He does, but contrary to what some people on here would have you believe, he also works very hard to get it back. I remember at least two incidents this season where this happened and we scored from him winning back possession, lastly this past weekend our first goal vs Blackburn. As for the other players moving forward, this is a matter of tactics. When a player goes on a run the striker(s) and wingers should move forward, along with maybe one of the central midfielders, not both. If everybody pushes forward and we are caught out on the break that is not so much a problem with the person losing the ball (which is always a possibility), but also how the other players react to it. Another thing is we lose a lot of possession in other ways, be it by long punts that bounce off our forwards or go straight to the opposition or by wayward passes from the back or midfield. I would argue we lose the ball a lot more in these ways than we do by Ben Arfa losing it when he's trying to make something happen in the opposition half. The problem is, it's very noticeable when it happens when you're on the edge of your seat waiting for something exciting to happen, because he is that type of player, whereas when it's Krul or the defence kicking it long you almost expect us to lose the ball most of the time and it's a pleasant surprise if one of the strikers actually manages to make it stick. Percentage wise I don't think Ben Arfa loses more possession than many other players, but it gets noticed a lot more. The flip side is that whenever he does not lose the ball, he is much more likely to make something positive happen. For that reason it is imperative that we stick with him. That's actually very, very spot-on. I can't tell you how many times I've hung my head in frustration as we lose the ball each time we lump it upfield expecting Ameobi to act like a venus flytrap, or Best to go on his mazy left-wing runs which probably have more in common with Ed Milliband's election campaigns than utilizing the actual left wing of a football pitch. In fact, we lose the ball 95% more times hoofing it up field than via Ben Arfa trying to get past players. You're right, he just gets noticed a lot more when he does. How many times does Tiote give it away? Tonnes as well, and he's in a much more vulnerable position. Losing the ball in midfield areas is more dangerous than losing it via long balls, which the entire team is behind. This is why poor teams simply bypass the area if they don't have players of adequate ability. Which is what we are also doing a lot even though we have that quality in midfield, not least the man in my avatar. Anyway, as I have argued above, Ben Arfa doesn't lose the ball significantly MORE than our other midfield and attacking players, just in other ways. There needs to be a realisation that to get the best of our most talented player(s) we need to play to their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses, which in this case means the deepest sitting central midfielder stays back as Ben Arfa tries to force the matter in the opposition half. Similarly, we wouldn't ask Tiote to bring the ball forward and pick out a killer pass, because his strength is the defensive side of the game as opposed to the offensive side.

Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player. I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times. I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me? As brilliant as he is he gives the ball away a fair bit when we seem to be in control and have players pushing forward, leaving us exposed to a counter attack. We have got lucky a few times. Personally I would have the lad in the side every week but it's not hard to see why he would give a manager something to think about. He does, but contrary to what some people on here would have you believe, he also works very hard to get it back. I remember at least two incidents this season where this happened and we scored from him winning back possession, lastly this past weekend our first goal vs Blackburn. As for the other players moving forward, this is a matter of tactics. When a player goes on a run the striker(s) and wingers should move forward, along with maybe one of the central midfielders, not both. If everybody pushes forward and we are caught out on the break that is not so much a problem with the person losing the ball (which is always a possibility), but also how the other players react to it. Another thing is we lose a lot of possession in other ways, be it by long punts that bounce off our forwards or go straight to the opposition or by wayward passes from the back or midfield. I would argue we lose the ball a lot more in these ways than we do by Ben Arfa losing it when he's trying to make something happen in the opposition half. The problem is, it's very noticeable when it happens when you're on the edge of your seat waiting for something exciting to happen, because he is that type of player, whereas when it's Krul or the defence kicking it long you almost expect us to lose the ball most of the time and it's a pleasant surprise if one of the strikers actually manages to make it stick. Percentage wise I don't think Ben Arfa loses more possession than many other players, but it gets noticed a lot more. The flip side is that whenever he does not lose the ball, he is much more likely to make something positive happen. For that reason it is imperative that we stick with him.

Don't know how many times I have to correct people with regards to this. FC Twente have a one sided clause to extend his contract by one more season, which they will almost certainly use, considering it will mean they can get a fee for him. Hoilett won't be free either, they'll get a significant compensation fee. Upwards of £6 or 7 million apparently. Clyne will be compo too but significantly less. I've got a feeling we'll definitely sign him. What makes you think we'll definitely get Clyne? Man U are reportedly very interested and I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of competition for his signature. Pards mentioning we are looking at Palace's players on Goals on Sunday (plus his Palace connections), ITKs on the palace forum saying we were after him plus Simpson's contract situation and our need for a fullback in general. Just got a hunch, I can't see him going to Man U. Fair enough. Never seen the lad play, but if the club really want him I hope you're right.

Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player. I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times. I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me?

Don't know how many times I have to correct people with regards to this. FC Twente have a one sided clause to extend his contract by one more season, which they will almost certainly use, considering it will mean they can get a fee for him. Hoilett won't be free either, they'll get a significant compensation fee. Upwards of £6 or 7 million apparently. Clyne will be compo too but significantly less. I've got a feeling we'll definitely sign him. What makes you think we'll definitely get Clyne? Man U are reportedly very interested and I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of competition for his signature.

Don't know how many times I have to correct people with regards to this. FC Twente have a one sided clause to extend his contract by one more season, which they will almost certainly use, considering it will mean they can get a fee for him.

Aye, that'd do. f*** that. 2010

Maybe replace Perch with Abeid if Pardew thinks he's ready.

I'd argue Guthrie has proven to be a worthy deputy for Tiote, whereas Shola and Best... The Cabaye suspension on top of Tiote being away at the ACN is very worrying though. Let's hope the Demba's do the business this Sunday, then anything we can get from Spurs is a huge bonus before we get our first choice midfield pairing back for the Wolves match 2 weeks later.

Agreed. I would prefer Guthrie to be partnered by a proper defensive midfield player for the Villa and Spurs matches, preferably Abeid but could live with Perch as he seems to have hit a patch of decent form. I think Pardew prefers to include Raylor for the set pieces and I rate him more than most, but I feel central midfield is too important a position for such a consideration, especially against a midfield 3 (5), which both Villa and Spurs seem to deploy.

thats not really what he says though is it ? That's exactly what I said. I don't think we've created boatloads of chances for Ba through good attacking football. He's been very clinical converting the few chances we have created for him, and on top of that has scored a fair few where he essentially created the chance all by himself. there were 2 (man utd and norwich off the top of my head), the rest were created for him and mostly one on ones which he done well to get into position for, but thats his job. Blackburn (h) #1: cross from the left, a lot of work still to do to control the ball, spin and whack it in, not exactly a tap in. Fifty fifty created for him. Blackburn (h) #2: profited from a flick on from the Blackburn defender. Not created for him by the team. Blackburn (h) #3: good ball in for a fantastic header at the back post. Created for him by the team. Wolves (a): header at the near post from a corner. Created for him by the team. Spurs (h): good ball in from the left. Created for him by the team. Stoke (a) #1: penalty. Created for him by the team. Stoke (a) #2: good cross from the right. Created for him by the team. Stoke (a) #3: tap in from a miscued shot from the right. Created for him by the team. Man U (a): pen. Created for him by the team. Norwich (a) #1: Fantastic ball over the top from Cabaye. A lot of work still to do, but created for him by the team. Norwich (a) #2: ball played to him from our own side. A lot of work still to do. Not created for him by the team. WBA (h) #1: fantastic free kick. Although won by Obertan, I would say not created by the team as there was still a LOT of work to do. WBA (h) #2: well laid down for him by HBA for a fantastic finish. Created by the team. Bolton (a): decent ball in from the right. Created by the team. Man U (h): good flick on by Ameobi. Still a lot of work to do, but created by the team. I have to admit, there's more in there where the service was decent than I remembered. Still, most of them are not exactly easy finishes where he just happens to be in the right place at the right time Owen style. Let's put it like this: I don't think our team is great at creating chances. Ameobi and Best are not a step down because they miss the easy chances that Ba puts away frequently, but because they are unable to make the runs, control the ball and finish as lethally as Ba is. I think we've seen in the past few games without him how much we depend on him being able to covert a half chance into a goal. I can't even remember any attempts on target from Best and Shola in his absence, outside of the Best goal vs QPR.

thats not really what he says though is it ? That's exactly what I said. I don't think we've created boatloads of chances for Ba through good attacking football. He's been very clinical converting the few chances we have created for him, and on top of that has scored a fair few where he essentially created the chance all by himself.

It's not like we've given Ba a lot of service so far this season. He's essentially managed to get the majority of his goals by doing all the work himself. Really looking forward to seeing them together on the pitch. Reckon Ba will drop a little deeper to help set up the attacking play (as he did vs Man U), with Cisse on the shoulder of the last defender looking to use his pace. Should be interesting!

Shola doesn't get a mention..

On topic: I am fully bracing myself for Demba Ba leaving us for the release fee in his contract (7 million?). Every chance Tiote will be on the move too, as will Colo if he won't sign a new contract in the next few months. These will need replacing with players of similar quality, which should be financially possible with the incoming fees involved, especially for Cheick. I would also like us to get in another quality full back and centre back. Some of the bit part players (Smith, Lovenkrands, Harper, maybe Guthrie) will leave and hopefully be replaced by younger, more promising players who will provide cover and can develop in first team players in time.

Was expecting him to stop running and wait for the defenders to catch up so he didn't have to shoot..

3 fucking points! Can't believe it. Daylight robbery..