Unbelievable

The Park that was PSV's best player for two straight seasons in which they reached the quarter and semi finals of the Champions League, earning him a transfer to one of the biggest clubs in the world where he has done reasonably well? Yes, I think he's a step above anything we have in midfield at the moment and not entirely unrealistic..

Absolute nonsense and you know it.. Now a top class player for 12 million and we would be having a different debate.. i don't think its nonsense at all. i think he's absoloutely spot on. Well we haven't splashed out 12 million for him have we, so it's a complete non debate. Personally, if we would have thrown away 12 million on a player of his credentials I would have been far more unhappy than I currently am about signing two 'meh' players when we really need to inject some quality in the side..

Depends whether you give a toss about actually playing or not I suppose. He had been playing before hadn't he..? If it was just about playing he would have signed a new contract with Bolton. He went away to move up in the world and he did. Take Guthrie, are you saying he shouldn't have signed for us when we offered him a contract, because he is not likely to figure in the first team much next season? Should he have gone to Fulham because they would have probably guaranteed him a first team place, or did he make the right decision to come here and take a chance? Chelsea - some of the best players in the league if not the world in Ben Haim's position. Newcastle - Geremi, someone currently in jail, Butt, er...Smith? Spot the difference. I thought you were convinced we were going to be bringing in some first team players for the midfield? I am pretty convinced, yeah. Do you think Keegan told Guthrie that when trying to get him to sign? In any case, they're still not going to be the midfield equivalent of Terry and Carvalho, are they? I would hope that for an uninspiring signing that Guthrie is (below average Premiership midfielder with supposed promise due to his age) the competition for his place that we are trying to bring in will be at least as much of a quality gap as there is between a very good Premiership defender and a world class defender, otherwise we're fucked..

I think it's fair to say we would have been and probably were willing to pay them at least the same wages Chelsea do considering they are squad players. What will they be on, somewhere near the 50k mark, that's what we pay players of their calibre as well. They went there to be part of a top football club in the world, possibly win a few trophies and have the chance the dreamt of as little boys to play at the highest possible level. Is it really that painful for Newcastle fans to consider players would rather go to a better club if offered similar wages than come here? I would find that slightly irronic considering money is one of the few things we've got going for us when it comes to attracting players nowadays. Is there something wrong with being ambitious and wanting to earn good money while trying to constantly improve at what you do, because if there is count me in as being guilty,,

Depends whether you give a toss about actually playing or not I suppose. He had been playing before hadn't he..? If it was just about playing he would have signed a new contract with Bolton. He went away to move up in the world and he did. Take Guthrie, are you saying he shouldn't have signed for us when we offered him a contract, because he is not likely to figure in the first team much next season? Should he have gone to Fulham because they would have probably guaranteed him a first team place, or did he make the right decision to come here and take a chance? Chelsea - some of the best players in the league if not the world in Ben Haim's position. Newcastle - Geremi, someone currently in jail, Butt, er...Smith? Spot the difference. I thought you were convinced we were going to be bringing in some first team players for the midfield?

Depends whether you give a toss about actually playing or not I suppose. He had been playing before hadn't he..? If it was just about playing he would have signed a new contract with Bolton. He went away to move up in the world and he did. Take Guthrie, are you saying he shouldn't have signed for us when we offered him a contract, because he is not likely to figure in the first team much next season? Should he have gone to Fulham because they would have probably guaranteed him a first team place, or did he make the right decision to come here and take a chance? I reckon Guthrie will get a lot more chances than Ben Haim has at Chelsea. We will see, but if he does indeed you have to wonder if we as a club are moving in the right direction..

Absolute nonsense and you know it.. Now a top class player for 12 million and we would be having a different debate..

Depends whether you give a toss about actually playing or not I suppose. He had been playing before hadn't he..? If it was just about playing he would have signed a new contract with Bolton. He went away to move up in the world and he did. Take Guthrie, are you saying he shouldn't have signed for us when we offered him a contract, because he is not likely to figure in the first team much next season? Should he have gone to Fulham because they would have probably guaranteed him a first team place, or did he make the right decision to come here and take a chance?

Can't say he's ever looked that good to me. Would have taken him on a free the other year but he chased the cash like Sidwell IMO; never stood a chance of getting in before Terry and Carvalho. That´s easy for us to say on the sidelines isn´t it? As a player you just want the chance to prove yourself at the highest level possible and, yes, maybe earn a decent wage while you´re at it. People go on like going to Chelsea is just about the money way too much. It´s not like a top player going to a Middle East club when they´re competing for every trophy around is it..? A cynic would argue players that cho(o)se us over other clubs went for the money rather than for sporting reasons.. As a free transfer from Bolton, if he honestly thought he would get in the Chelsea team ahead of club captain John Terry and £20m Ricardo Carvalho - one of the best defenders in the world - I wouldn't want him as he's clearly a mentalist. You'd have to be a mentalist to not move from a club like Bolton to a club like Chelsea when given the chance..

Can't say he's ever looked that good to me. Would have taken him on a free the other year but he chased the cash like Sidwell IMO; never stood a chance of getting in before Terry and Carvalho. That´s easy for us to say on the sidelines isn´t it? As a player you just want the chance to prove yourself at the highest level possible and, yes, maybe earn a decent wage while you´re at it. People go on like going to Chelsea is just about the money way too much. It´s not like a top player going to a Middle East club when they´re competing for every trophy around is it..? A cynic would argue players that cho(o)se us over other clubs went for the money rather than for sporting reasons.. Sadly in a number of cases you have those two things the wrong way round. Huh?

Can't say he's ever looked that good to me. Would have taken him on a free the other year but he chased the cash like Sidwell IMO; never stood a chance of getting in before Terry and Carvalho. That´s easy for us to say on the sidelines isn´t it? As a player you just want the chance to prove yourself at the highest level possible and, yes, maybe earn a decent wage while you´re at it. People go on like going to Chelsea is just about the money way too much. It´s not like a top player going to a Middle East club when they´re competing for every trophy around is it..? A cynic would argue players that cho(o)se us over other clubs went for the money rather than for sporting reasons..

Much better off with personalities like Barton and Smith..

And half of the rest I wouldnt want here. For someone who preaches about not getting the quality in there's some average players on that list IMO Examples please.. Besides, there will always be some players I rate and you don't and vice versa. That is hardly the point is it? The players on that list are invariably a level or two above players like Guthrie..

Oh well, in that case another illustration of my point about needing to move early..

Never heard of him. You say you remain unconvinced by the club, fair enough. So who would convince you? Well, if you insist, here´s my ambitious yet not entirely unrealistic target list, just from the two leagues I know reasonably well. I would expect the club to be able to identify many more targets of this calibre from leagues I don´t follow like in South America, France, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Turkey etc. Bentley SWP Morten Gamst Pedersen McCarthy Santa Cruz Diouf Ben Haim Anelka Arteta Benayoun Park Zarate Ashton Bent Aissati Nuri Sahin De Guzman Luigi Bruins And before anybody starts, no, I wouldn´t expect us to sign all these players, but this is the kind of level we should be aiming at. And yes, most will not come cheap, which is why investment is needed. And no, there are no guarantees that these players will be succesful if they move to us, but them being good players to begin with helps.. It´s getting harder to come up with these lists though, because a number of players that could have been on there have already moved to other clubs or committed their futures to their current club (Modric, Crouch, Sulejmani, Dunne, Farfan, just to name a few). Of course it seems target we thought we would have a chance with are now beyond our reach as well (Bentley possibly, Arshavin, Arda Turan seemingly). Which is exactly why it is important to identify targets and move early in the transfer window.

`Pacify you´..

My personal outlay? I have had a season ticket for two years when I lived in Newcastle. Since moving back to Holland I have gone to matches whenever I am in the region, which is about once every two months. I have also subscribed to a paid television station here that broadcasts nearly all Newcastle matches, and would gladly pay to watch a match online if there is no other way. Does it matter to my argument? Is this the only hole you can pick in it? It´s a good thing you are never online during our matches or you would look a little silly asking that question.. It was a simple question that you answered, thanks. No need to be so defensive about it. I'm online during games I don't go to btw, which is half of the home games (I share an ST) and most of the away ones. Ok

My personal outlay? I have had a season ticket for two years when I lived in Newcastle. Since moving back to Holland I have gone to matches whenever I am in the region, which is about once every two months. I have also subscribed to a paid television station here that broadcasts nearly all Newcastle matches, and would gladly pay to watch a match online if there is no other way. Does it matter to my argument? Is this the only hole you can pick in it? It´s a good thing you are never online during our matches or you would look a little silly asking that question..

I assume I fall into that category, along with a few other posters like Tsunami and UV? Strangely, last summer after the Ashley takeover and with Sam Allardyce as our manager, there was mass euphoria on here and a few people including the people mentioned and myself declared we would not join the party before there was any reason to, i.e. before the new regime had shown its hand. We got a lot of stick for this stance at the time, just like we are getting stick now. However, we are one year down the line and the hand that has been shown so far is confusing to say the least. I think by now a lot of the people who were mass celebrating have had time to analyse the situation and are now on the fence themselves, saying they expect a few top class signings, be patient, will only be disappointed if it doesn´t happen, stop slitting your wrists et cetera. Since some of us started from a different perspective, i.e. on the fence and waiting to be convinced we have moved off the fence a little bit and are expressing our valid concerns about recent developments and the level of ambition that is being shown. It´s not because we want to be negative or don´t want the club to do well. it´s for exactly opposite reasons, i.e. we want to be positive and optimistic about the club, but for the right reasons and not just blind faith and hope. In short, what´s happened is people are waking up to the idea that a new regime does not necessarily mean everything is better than it used to be and the new board need to convince us, their paying customers and the lifelihood of their business, that they will continue to provide a product that is worth the outlay that they are charging..

Go to the first page in the thread. That was before we actually signed him man! Don´t you know he´s a good squad player now he´s signed for us, and a great piece of business from the club? Who's changed their minds like? Here´s one http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=53602.msg1389869#msg1389869 vs http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=53602.msg1362850#msg1362850

Agree with the sentiments of that post. I'd much rather have young, hungry players who are desperate to prove themselves than the likes of Duff, Smith, Carr etc who know they've already made it and are on huge wages. If he's good then great, if he's cack then at least he's not cost us much and will still be a good age when his contract runs out. This isn't to say we don't need immediate first-teamers - we do - but to complain at this deal for the supposed £2m is mental. [/NOT A CRITICISM OF THE OLD BOARD] I think a lot of the misunderstanding is due to the fact that people have different views of how we should build a good squad as quickly as possible (which IMHO we do need to as we are losing ground and have been for a few years). There is a camp that look at our current squad and conclude it is both small and not very strong. The best way to get it up to scratch is by buying some (doesn´t even have to be more than 3 or 4) very good players and move current first teamers to be squad players (the likes of Butt, Geremi, Taylor). There seems to be another camp that wants us to build from the ground up and don´t seem too concerned about the timing aspect (doesn´t have to be this upcoming season) as long as we slowly move in the right direction. In my mind, the second approach would suit a club with limited financial means and a good manager. In my opinion we are a club with a good manager that should be able to compete financially, like we have done for years and especially now we have a billionaire owning the club. I just don´t quite understand why we are taking chances on players who haven´t shown as far as I am aware extraordinary potential or quality unless we really need to. Luckily, we all seem agreed we need better quality transfers before the window shuts, so here´s hoping it happens and I can read my own posts back and laugh at my own impatience. For now though, I haven´t seen much to suggest that will happen. You can point at the club keeping its cards close to its chest and claim we don´t know anything, but I will point out that they have played their first two cards on the table already, and I have yet to be impressed.

Go to the first page in the thread. That was before we actually signed him man! Don´t you know he´s a good squad player now he´s signed for us, and a great piece of business from the club?

And by doing that you're not writing him off, unlike some people. Can you point me to some posts of people writing him off Mick?

We´ve got ourselves a low reputation player from the fringes of the top four! We´removing up in the world.. (just joking before some of you have another fit)

Oh, and to reply on topic as well, my stance is that we should indeed offer Owen reduced wages, not because I want us to reduce the wage bill but because Owen hasn´t been worth his wages for us over the course of his contract unfortunately. He has done well in the second half of last season, but has been a let down for us over the past three seasons (for reasons he can´t be held personally responsible for, I know). If he accepts I will be happy, if he doesn´t I will still be happy to sell him, recoup some money and look for a striker that will work well with Martins.