merlin

Pardew is not going to change now - he has always started well at his clubs and then tailed off and this is no different. I am not inclined to blame Carver(although he may end up being the fall guy for what is happening now)because we didn't play this way when Carver was coach under SBR. The tactics are the manager's and clearly the players, or those who CAN play, are not happy with them now. Besides all that, there seems to be an undercurrent of bad feeling around the club and many players are not doing their best. There is little point in trying to put forward suggestions as to how all this can be solved because the club as a whole, and the manager in particular, are not really concerned about what the fans think - only a fall off in attendances will force them to face the issues and that isn't going to happen just yet although another home defeat may start that process rolling. Pardew has got by up to now on the goodwill created by last season's finish and the fact that many fans believe Ashley is partly to blame by his parsimonious transfer policies, but the fans' patience will be running short now. We should be beating teams like Swansea at SJP and the fact that we look so bad against these sides is ominous - using Europe as an excuse doesn't wash either, we have had European campaigns since the club first qualified in 1968 and the only season where we did as badly in the league was 77/78 after Dinnis was appointed and we got relegated....we won the trophy in 1969 after being written off by all the so-called experts and still finished in a respectable league position too after Joe Harvey was obliged to use quite a few youngsters like Foggon and Dyson in both league and Europe. Unless the club end up in the bottom 4 at the turn of the year, Pardew won't be in danger of the sack and as most people are aware, he suits the people running the club and they suit him....he will continue mouthing the usual platitudes and excuses and the 'board' will be happy to hide behind them unless things start to look really serious - they, like us, now know that better managers will not be falling over themselves to work at SJP under their regime and by better managers I mean better than Pardew. I was quite prepared to give Pardew the benefit of any doubts I had when he joined the club but I've made my mind up about him now and its a thumbs down where long term success/improvement is cconcerned. We had a great season last year, but its over now and football is all about consistency...WBA are this season's NUFC up to now and if we continue to struggle and play badly, the rest of the PL will soon forget what we did last season. Unless they CAN get a better manager there will be no change - and there would be no point in that anyway. Its going to be a long, grinding season......

This sums it all up perfectly - a long and increasingly difficult season lies ahead and its not going to be pretty....

I didn't enjoy the Championship season as much as I thought I would. Don't know if it was because we were winning every home game easily or if it was because we were beating teams full of players I've never heard of, but something was missing. The ups and downs keep it interesting to me. Things like waking up to see we've sacked Hughton for no reason or that we almost got into the Champions League last year are just so unpredictable that it's fascinating. Seeing Man Utd in another title race with minimal off-field fuss MUST be boring after a while. It would be nice to have the chance to put that theory to the test, but don't worry - you won't be getting boredom with success..!

Agreed - the lack of options for players in possession when we have the ball is appalling - there is no movement or running off the ball to offer options for a pass. This HAS to be down to the manager - Carver was coach under SBR and there was more off the ball movement then.

Cabaye is a far better footballer than Nolan ever was, or ever would be - his problems are not in any lack of ability or effectiveness, but lie in the fact that he is not being used correctly or in a way that shows his strengths. He has looked far better when playing for France than he has at NUFC these past few months and in my opinion his best games for us were against Villa away last season and Man U at SJP last season. He is undoubtedly sore that the Debuchy transfer fell through after he did his best to sell the club to the player and he probably thinks that we are not going to keep making progfess under the current regime ; I won't be surprised if he is sold either in Jan or the summer. A disillusioned player if ever I saw one.

There is no point in discussing whether Pardew should be sacked or not, because it clearly aint going to happen unless we face a relegation fight. To add to that, we could not attract the sort of replacement that would improve matters because every manager in the country(and plenty abroad no doubt)are aware that Ashley will not give any incumbent the sort of money necessary to improve the side. That doesn't mean Pardew is above criticism just because he oversaw a 5th place finish - even Roeder managed to get the club into 7th in his first season and Dalglish got us to finish 2nd after taking over from KK. His record is NOT one of a consistently successful manager in the long term at a club - and that is what sets the top men like Wenger and Fergie apart from the rest. Mourinho also falls into that category and even people like Jol have a better long term CV. I reckon Pardew is a good man manager in his first years with a club, but lacks the ability to change the team during matches so that defeats are turned into wins or draws...how many times have we come back from a goal down to win a game in the PL..? I am still to be convinced that he can get the best out of players over a long period of time...Tiote, Cisse and Cabaye have unquestionably regressed as players this season. Whatever any on here think, though, he is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

Are you comparing Pardew with Wenger...!!!?

Haven't enjoyed very much of this season at all....poor football and lack of entertainment, even in games we have won. This also applied to many games last season too,but fans put up with it because we were winning a Cisse was getting some great goals...both factors are missing this season.

Any quality player we have will not be happy if they think that they are not going to be joined by other top players after putting in a major effort to gain European football,which they did last season. Now that it has become apparent that Ashley and Llambias intend to stick to a very tight budget, come what may, players like Cabaye and Tiote will be off at the first major opportunity because they can see that if the team is not improved their efforts will be fruitless. A player's career is short and no-one can blame them for seeking success with a better club. It was obvious after the failure to address major problems in defence in the summer that the club was not going to try to challenge the Top 4 and as a result, we will lose top players in due course. Playing percentage football will not improve the situation either because the fans will get restless and that will sour the feeling in the Dressing room even more. Difficult to see this being resolved satisfactorily....

I was always suspicious about Pardew's record as a manager because his sides have always started off well and then, as others have said, they fade away and he ends up being sacked. Obviously, I hoped that this wouldn't happen this time but it looks as if it is and although he has some mitigating circumstances after the lack of squad strengthening in the summer, there is little doubt that he is not getting the best out of the players we currently have. He persists with the 4-4-2 formation which clearly doesn't suit either Ba or Cisse, the latter being especially affected by the system...neither of these players are anywhere near being decent target men, and even if we had one, the m/f is always too far away to offer support to forwards when the ball is hoofed forwards as it usually is. The lack of ability to retain possession is bordering on criminal and other teams have now well and truly sussed how we play and are countering it easily. When we were winning games last season it was easy for fans to overlook the flaws in our general play in the hope that summer signings would address that - we now know it hasn't and the scales are starting to fall from the eyes of many fans who were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that those who say they have lost faith with the manager is DOUBLE the figure who say its too soon to tell shows you that..... We are picking up bad suspensions after players commit silly and serious fouls - it is hard to avoid the feeling that some of this is happening due to frustration among the better players, both with the way they are being asked to perform and the lack of summer reinforcements. Pardew has obviously had them onside over the last 2 seasons but it looks as if they are either seeing through him as a tactician or that they, like many fans, see him as a Board apologist. Good managers get great performances out of ordinary players...KK did this as did SBR...poor managers make good players look ordinary or less talented than they actually are - I reckon the number of fans who are willing to put Pardew in the former category has diminished drastically this season, but there is little chance of his being replaced, Apart from the fact that Ashley would not want to pay any compensation, who else would take the job ? Would anyone on here put a brass farthing on Jol, say, leaving Fulham to work for Ashley and Llambias ? I wouldn't..... Unless we end up in a relegation spot by Christmas - not completely unlikely at this rate - Pardew is here for the foreseeable future. Percentage football will rule, at least until the season's end, but whether many fans will renew STs after a season of this stuff is another matter ; Ashley fired Allardyce because he 'wasn't being entertained'...is he now, I wonder ?

We could lose the next 10 games and he won't get sacked. The compensation would be too much. There will be a clause in his contract to avoid that. irrelevant though, he wont be sacked because it would make Ashley and Llambias look like complete tools Since when did Ashley and Llambias need any more help to look like complete tools ?

I'm not going to go on about history, especially when it's Shearer and England as England doesn't concern me and I have no idea if people were writing him off before Euro 96. As for stability, I didn't say good managers always create stability, I can't think of a poor one that ever has. Wenger certainly has and I've never doubted his ability as a manager. He’s clearly a top manager and I will back Pardew against anybody if he manages to emulate Wenger. Not that I think he will emulate him or even get close to doing so but that’s not my personal benchmark for him either. My personal benchmark for Pardew is for him to have us playing to the best of our ability. I expect him to get performances out of the team that are at least equal the sum of its parts and I don’t currently think he’s achieving that. I’m not saying that he can’t in future but to do so he’s going to have to change the way he sets us up as it’s not suiting our players. I don’t believe Cisse, Tiote or Cabaye are poor players, performances from those three for much of this season suggest that they aren’t up to playing well and that is far from the truth. As a team we are not performing at the level we’re capable of and I can’t pin that on individual players. If one or two players were below par then I’d put it down to those players, when it’s the team as a whole you have to look beyond the players for the reason. Well said Mick - got it in one.

Having broken my own rule about not posting on the site, I am going to do it again because this is another great post by tmonkey. Last week, it was Shak's post about Pardew that got me off the fence and this one is equally as good. I agree totally with tmonkey's view - Ba and Cisse are not going to work...not only have they looked dysfunctional as a pair at SJP,but they also misfire when playing for Senegal. The big problem is that neither is a decent target man, and neither even wants to play that role. The way Pardew has the team playing, the long ball is used, too often in my view, but it rarely sticks when either of these two receive it. As a consequence, the opposition usually win it straight back because our M/F plays too deep to support the front men anyway - even if they were capable of keeping the ball when its played up to them. Both players have proved to be decent goal-scorers but I always felt that Cisse would find it tougher this season as defenders are watching him carefully...they have also worked out how to stop us playing and that's not difficult when we give them the ball so often. Cisse will struggle to reproduce his form from last season until he gets a better target man as a partner and Ba will only play the way he wants to. There is little the club can do about that because of his escape clause and they are reluctant to spend anyway. Shearer and Ferdinand were BOTH capable of playing the target man role as well as getting goals....Shearer helped to make Bellamy the success he was because he was so good at shielding and keeping the ball, thereby releasing Bellamy to use his pace to attack defences. You can go back to the Fairs Cup days when Wyn Davies used to take the pressure off Pop Robson who scored over 30 goals the season when we won it and even Macdonald and Tudor were a good match in the 70s...a pair of forwards always have to be complementary to be successful and Ba and Cisse clearly are not. Unfortunately, I see little chance of this being rectified unless Ba is sold in January and that is by no means unlikely so I hope the dozy duo in charge have been looking at alternatives.

Good post, you should do it more often. Thanks for that, Mick - unfortunately, there are a fair few who would not agree with you, but I will show my face occasionally....esp when we are discussing an important topic, which I believe this is. I also believe it has a fair way to run yet.....

I said I wouldn't post again on the site and as a general rule, I won't. However, this posting from Shak deserves comment, because it sums up exactly what is happening at the club now. It is hard not to have some sympathy for Pardew because in many people's opinion, including mine, he has been sold a bum steer by Ashley and Llambias during the close season; we badly needed defensive reinforcements and they failed to deliver - end of. That has bitten us on the ar-e several times this season, but especially on Sunday, where the game was effectively over after 15 mins. The big BUT is that Pardew is beginning to look as if he is hostage to his own tactics as well as the lack of depth in the squad. As Shak says, if we lose to the Mackems in the Derby, the discontent which has been festering below the surface with many fans(about lack of reinforcements as well as the dire football being played)will start to show itself. You can't ignore the fact that Pardew has shown a similar track record at other clubs - early success and then a tail-off in performances and results as well as controversy about some of his selections(or lack of them at West Ham)...lets be honest, if that hadn't happened Pardew would not be at NUFC. As some have said, he talks a good game and nobody can argue with what he got the team to achieve LAST season...but it was LAST season - in football, you are only as good as your results now as a manager. Fans won't accept his platitudes forever though, even though they know he has a tough job with the board - they want entertainment, but failing that, a winning side - he delivered the latter last season, but the fans know the team looks a shadow of what it was then - even with Colo and Taylor in it, although we missed those 2 badly on Sunday. Williamson is NOT a PL defender and Perch is better in M/F. The side looked over-awed by Man U and they made us look like a Non-League team until they got a comfortable lead...fans can forgive defeat if the team gives as good as it gets, but not if they act like awestruck statues, as when Evans and Evra got 2 goals from corners. Everyone can speculate on what is wrong - but clearly, something is...Tiote was lucky not to be sent off in the early minutes and Cabaye is, in my opinion, disillusioned about the events surrounding Debuchy and lack of reinforcements. He may not be the only one either. As for the forwards, you have to wonder what is going on...only HBA looks as if he really wants to do the business and he is not getting much support by others running into space for a pass. The game at the SOS has now assumed even more importance than usual - and the performance of the team will matter almost as much as the result - Pardew is lucky that Ashley has given him an 8 year contract ; he will need it if things don't pick up soon and you have to wonder why Ashley did this when he clearly doesn't like parting with money unless it suits him. Time will tell......

Oh yes - NUFC is bigger than the players...unless they happen to be Waddle, Beardsley, Shearer, Gazza, Carroll, Supermac etc etc. Just look at the club's record of success over the last 30 years - pathetic. The players mentioned, on the other hand, have a load of medals.....

See my post above Wullie...

Get used to it. We used to be a club who bought players for large fees, give them massive career fulfilling contracts, and then could never get rid of them. We are now a club who aims for players on lower fees, on lower wages, but with potential to be a hell of a lot better. It is a natural consequence of the second option that we will worry about the players we sign who turn out to be great player, and then leave for bigger and better clubs. Do it consistently enough for a long period of time and you might get lucky and hit the sweet spot between the Arsenal model and the Man Utd model! ...and if you get it wrong a few times, you end up between the Sheffield Wednesday and WBA model...! go the other way and it's leeds and pompey........and us to certain extent. Leeds and Pompey do NOT have our crowd potential or drawing power. Still, we can always settle for second best instead of 3rd best, eh !? Leeds and NUFC's problems were the result of having a complete dickhead in charge instead of only a partial one.. you just don't want to get it do ya ? it doesn't matter what the size of crowds, turnover or prestige of club,'crowd potential or 'drawing power'......if you try to live too far beyond your means you'll end up f***ed. the only difference is the size of the numbers, the premise is the same for all. Just don't want to 'get it'..!? If I and others hadn't wanted to 'Get it' 20 years ago, the club would still have been run by McKeag's family and KK would never have arrived as manager ONCE. never mind twice... I don't need a lesson in economics thanks - you are implying that the club would be 'living beyond its means'by competing for decent signings or trying to keep its best players ; that is a matter of conjecture - do you believe that Kuqui is a decent signing for a club like Newcastle ? Or would Gateshead be a more likely setting for him !? We have sold a young player who, in all likelihood, will play for England for 10 years and win medals with Liverpool - yes, that's right, Liverpool and they WILL win medals despite the envious tripe spouted on here about them because they are ambitious and have rich backers....nobody is saying that NUFC should be signing 35m players but there IS and should be, a balance. Also, any club selling its top players will never prosper - end of... If you don't want to talk Sheff Weds, try Burnley and see how selling best players did for them. NUFC DOES have a big support and only clubs with decent support can be successful over a long period. NUFC has not punched its weight over the years and if you can't(or WON'T) see that, you either haven't supported the club for very long or you have a poor memory recall. Ashley may not be Abramovitch but he COULD back the club a bit better in the market - as could anyone who doesn't blink at losing 1m a shot in casinos..!! Failure to attract or keep good players means that any decent ones left at the club will also want to leave. How can you say the club hasn't been punching above it's weight when you look at the financial side of things before Ashley took over? We were paying Champions League level wages! Any club selling their best players will never proper...? What about Sevilla, as Village Idiot points out? It's all about the right balance, which is difficult to find, tbf. What tripe is spoken about Liverpool as well? Most of it is justified. Head over to one of their forums if you don't like the scousers getting insulted. You have proved your ignorance beyond doubt several times in this post. I don't know how old you are (and frankly care less), but your comments about Liverpool are those of a prize tw-- or someone whose empty can makes the most rattle. They have achieved far more in a few seasons in the 80s than NUFC have done since 1892. If you are unaware of that, and the respect they have in the game as a result of that then you shouldn't be allowed out, never mind be a NUFC fan. After reading your insightful(cough)comments, I wish I HAD been born in the NW of the country, then I could have spent my time laughing at the comments written by 'experts on winning trophies' such as yourself !! After all, you are well placed to give advice after seeing your side trounce the PL time after time - not to mention the many cups since 1969.... IF you had taken the trouble to read the posts leading up to the one you chose to benefit us with your comments upon, you would have seen that I made the point that, prior to Ashley, NUFC was being run by a d--khead, and that is why CL wages were being paid.... And WHY should I be interested in the example of a second rate Spanish club like Sevilla ? What do they have in common with NUFC ? Spain has 2 clubs who are any good - end of....just the same as Scotland except that every so often, someone like Valencia makes a show in the Europa Lge because they have imported some Argies or Brazilians... Glad to be well away from people like you - the good name of NUFC fans is already blackened by similar people and you are in for a rude awakening..unless you are an Ashley troll of course ! Enjoy your success !

Get used to it. We used to be a club who bought players for large fees, give them massive career fulfilling contracts, and then could never get rid of them. We are now a club who aims for players on lower fees, on lower wages, but with potential to be a hell of a lot better. It is a natural consequence of the second option that we will worry about the players we sign who turn out to be great player, and then leave for bigger and better clubs. Do it consistently enough for a long period of time and you might get lucky and hit the sweet spot between the Arsenal model and the Man Utd model! ...and if you get it wrong a few times, you end up between the Sheffield Wednesday and WBA model...! go the other way and it's leeds and pompey........and us to certain extent. Leeds and Pompey do NOT have our crowd potential or drawing power. Still, we can always settle for second best instead of 3rd best, eh !? Leeds and NUFC's problems were the result of having a complete dickhead in charge instead of only a partial one.. you just don't want to get it do ya ? it doesn't matter what the size of crowds, turnover or prestige of club,'crowd potential or 'drawing power'......if you try to live too far beyond your means you'll end up f***ed. the only difference is the size of the numbers, the premise is the same for all. Just don't want to 'get it'..!? If I and others hadn't wanted to 'Get it' 20 years ago, the club would still have been run by McKeag's family and KK would never have arrived as manager ONCE. never mind twice... I don't need a lesson in economics thanks - you are implying that the club would be 'living beyond its means'by competing for decent signings or trying to keep its best players ; that is a matter of conjecture - do you believe that Kuqui is a decent signing for a club like Newcastle ? Or would Gateshead be a more likely setting for him !? We have sold a young player who, in all likelihood, will play for England for 10 years and win medals with Liverpool - yes, that's right, Liverpool and they WILL win medals despite the envious tripe spouted on here about them because they are ambitious and have rich backers....nobody is saying that NUFC should be signing 35m players but there IS and should be, a balance. Also, any club selling its top players will never prosper - end of... If you don't want to talk Sheff Weds, try Burnley and see how selling best players did for them. NUFC DOES have a big support and only clubs with decent support can be successful over a long period. NUFC has not punched its weight over the years and if you can't(or WON'T) see that, you either haven't supported the club for very long or you have a poor memory recall. Ashley may not be Abramovitch but he COULD back the club a bit better in the market - as could anyone who doesn't blink at losing 1m a shot in casinos..!! Failure to attract or keep good players means that any decent ones left at the club will also want to leave.

I think you are wasting your time making this point Dave - plenty on here have accepted mediocrity and seem happy with it....mainly because they know that its all they are going to get and nobody likes to admit to settling for mediocrity. They will always have an excuse why the club kicks them in the nuts - even if it means running down a club legend like KK who dragged the club from - wait for it - mediocrity and walked because he could see that it was heading there again.....

Get used to it. We used to be a club who bought players for large fees, give them massive career fulfilling contracts, and then could never get rid of them. We are now a club who aims for players on lower fees, on lower wages, but with potential to be a hell of a lot better. It is a natural consequence of the second option that we will worry about the players we sign who turn out to be great player, and then leave for bigger and better clubs. Do it consistently enough for a long period of time and you might get lucky and hit the sweet spot between the Arsenal model and the Man Utd model! ...and if you get it wrong a few times, you end up between the Sheffield Wednesday and WBA model...! go the other way and it's leeds and pompey........and us to certain extent. Leeds and Pompey do NOT have our crowd potential or drawing power. Still, we can always settle for second best instead of 3rd best, eh !? Leeds and NUFC's problems were the result of having a complete dickhead in charge instead of only a partial one..

I'll be disgusted if he goes for anything less than 15m frankly.

Get used to it. We used to be a club who bought players for large fees, give them massive career fulfilling contracts, and then could never get rid of them. We are now a club who aims for players on lower fees, on lower wages, but with potential to be a hell of a lot better. It is a natural consequence of the second option that we will worry about the players we sign who turn out to be great player, and then leave for bigger and better clubs. Do it consistently enough for a long period of time and you might get lucky and hit the sweet spot between the Arsenal model and the Man Utd model! ...and if you get it wrong a few times, you end up between the Sheffield Wednesday and WBA model...!

Terms of consistent success..late 1890s/early 20th Century. Terms of success within last century - 1950s ; great players as well as cup winners 3 times Terms of attacking football, most visible and memorable time - 1990s.

This is right.