fredbob

In my opinion, Barton will start if he's match fit, SA will want a bit if bite in midfield away from home and Barton will provide that.

cant really decide what formation he'll play.

By the way, does anyone else think that when Butt plays well, the team play well, i dont think that thats a coincidence.

[move]PR[/move]

No man, i disagree, i genuinely think nufc is a toy with him, i know businessmen lie all the time like politicians but i cant help but think that his interview the other day had some genuine felings in there, showed to me that he just wants to watch football and enjoy life whilst making a success of the club as well as himself.

I wanna know more about the Owen and Martins partenrship, from what i gather Owen was dropping deep, is that right?

That seems strange to me if true.

Were there signs that this partnership could work?

I think line up will be

 

.............................................Given............................................

 

Beye....................Faye.............................Cacapa...................Jose

 

Geremi..............Butt...............................Emre.........................Zog

 

.............................Owen.................Martins..................................

 

Short on height but plenty of quality. Emre is vital for Owen and Martins. He may even play Faye in midfield to give a big presence putting Butt on the bench and Roz partnering Cacapa.

All that sounds absolutely spot on to be honest, would be a team i'd be happy with.

i wouldnt be irratated in the slightest, in fact id love it, shows that all he wants to do is play football primariliy for his team and just as imporatantly for his City.

 

Passion and commitment, something which has been missing for a few years now at nufc.

 

 

 

Passion and commitment to the cause of Liverpool or of Steven Gerrard though? Seems more like option B.

Probably true, but i cant help but sympathize with him, i like that attitude of wanting to play all the time, it was brattish but honest, to be fair he's specified the derby as being an important aspect and hasnt complained (in public) when he hasnt played in other games, which to me spells out that he really wanted to play for the city.

People seem to want there players to be robots, he says something he's a selfish ego maniac (Gerrard) he doesnt say anything he's a unloyal cretin (Owen)

Damned if ya do, damned if ya dont, i'd rather have the "ego maniac" than the silent cretin.

i wouldnt be irratated in the slightest, in fact id love it, shows that all he wants to do is play football primariliy for his team and just as imporatantly for his City.

Passion and commitment, something which has been missing for a few years now at nufc.

I think Martins is going to be very exciting to watch tonight and I am expecting him to have a very good game.

 

He has been very eager to prove he can play alongside Owen and I think he is locked into proving he can do so.

 

I can hardly wait.

I know how ya feel, i dont want to jinx anything but i am absolutely salivating at seeing Martins and Owen start.

Has anyone read the nufc.com quotes from SA, he talks about how he knows that Martins and Owen are different type of players and is gonna play to their strengths. Which means a passing game.

Really looking forward to this one!

Isnt it strange how historically we've craved a decent defence/defender and thats always been the stigma attached to our lack of success and frustration and yet when we finally have a defence to be proud of noone seems to be placing any importance on them. This is the reason why i think Roz and Cacapa are so bloody important, without them we are the last 3/4 seasons all over again.

I think Faye is the type o defender we've been crying out for for years too, i.e. - a big strong centre-back.

 

 

 

Yeh i agree, although i personally have been craving a defender who is able to bring the ball out of defence, even Bramble had his good days but i still hated seeing him hoof the ball to wembely everytime he got the ball, the number of times he gave the ball away eyes.gifin the middle of our half was unbelivable, its why i place more value on the likes of Roz and Cacapas who are able to play the ball to out of defence releasing pressure and retaining possession, which is 'nine tenths of the game'

 

(Not sayin Faye cant pass the ball out of defence, just making a generalisation about all 'big strong defenders')

I think both are equally important really, you need a good blend in that position, same as you do in the middle of the park and up front. I think the best combo is Faye and Cacapa / Rozenhal, especially in the majority of PL games. What we've all really been craving I suppose is a good back four and we actually look like we're well on the way to having that now. For the first time in years.

Isnt it strange how historically we've craved a decent defence/defender and thats always been the stigma attached to our lack of success and frustration and yet when we finally have a defence to be proud of noone seems to be placing any importance on them. This is the reason why i think Roz and Cacapa are so bloody important, without them we are the last 3/4 seasons all over again.

I think Faye is the type o defender we've been crying out for for years too, i.e. - a big strong centre-back.

Yeh i agree, although i personally have been craving a defender who is able to bring the ball out of defence, even Bramble had his good days but i still hated seeing him hoof the ball to wembely everytime he got the ball, the number of times he gave the ball away in the middle of our half was unbelivable, its why i place more value on the likes of Roz and Cacapas who are able to play the ball to out of defence releasing pressure and retaining possession, which is 'nine tenths of the game'

(Not sayin Faye cant pass the ball out of defence, just making a generalisation about all 'big strong defenders')

 

Can't disagree with any of that. Especially the bit about the movement. When people list his deficiencies, people still say movement, but as i've been trying to say on several occassions this season - it's improved dramatically.

 

Great post. Sums Martins up perfectly.

About the best summary i've seen on Martins!

Isnt it strange how historically we've craved a decent defence/defender and thats always been the stigma attached to our lack of success and frustration and yet when we finally have a defence to be proud of noone seems to be placing any importance on them. This is the reason why i think Roz and Cacapa are so bloody important, without them we are the last 3/4 seasons all over again.

Owen seems to be getting mentioned alot, i kinda disagree with it, i dont think he's as important as Viduka when it comes to our attack, for me its the team players who are the most important and Owen definetely isnt a team player.

It's so refreshing to see so many options, this is the frst squad in 3/4 years which has such a good spread of talent, if only Mr Shearer were still playing.

the thing is with picking Owen is as last season proved we dint create enough for Owen to be best utilised, i think its more important to have a players who gonna be able to implement a way of playing which would best utilise Owen, i think Owen needs too much support to be considered vital, if anythin he holds back the sides ability to change the way they play there football and tactics. Somone like Viduka is more an imporatnt striker than Owen in my opinion.

Simple question, just interesting to see who you think is individually the most important player on the grass and why?

For me, i think Roz has been a breath of fresh air for us, really good to see a defender who is able to link the defence with the midfield, i love the way he gets forward as well, reminds me of Albert! I cant help but think that Emre may be instrumental to us but only time will tell!

I don't understand why people are laughing at the thought of him being worth 15 million.  You just have to accept todays transfter market is ludacris.

 

22 years old with bags of potential, can use both feet, great in the air and can pull things out of the hat very few other players could.  Also has 13 goals in 18 International matches.

 

I think he's absolutely average tbh.

 

He struggles to control the ball, can't pass it accurately more than 10 yards & can't head it for s***. He can't tackle, fails to bring others into the game and can't hold it up when it's pinged up to him.

 

He is, however, fast as f*** when latching onto a through ball and can shoot very powerfully every now and again.

 

I don't like you.

 

Which bits do you disagree with?

 

Well i disagree with the fact that you've pointed out these flaws, which you're not too wrong about (although i feel his flaws are majorly highlighted too much so) and with all these apparently obviouls fundamental flaws he's still managed to stick the ball in the back of the net 20 odd times (in his first season in a differnt league), that speaks mountains to me, there are many strikers out there who dont have any obvious weaknesses yet couldnt hit an elephants arse with a frying pan, why is he lambasted so much??

 

You've agreed with me yet still had a little dig!

 

He isn't as good as you think he is. Sorry but it's the truth. He'll score goals but it doesn't make him a good footballer. He struggles badly with the rudiments of the sport and he flatters to deceive more often than not.

 

He's just not that good tbh. I wish he was. But he's not.

 

 

 

I agree upto a point, although, he's good in the air, and his link up play improved loads, not great but better, the rudimentary of football is having a good touch and yes his first touch is very very inconsistent sometimes its brilliant sometimes its poor.

I cant help but think that sayin he'll score goals but that doesnt make him a good footballer is a load of crap to be quite honest, if you're a striker and your scoring goals you're doing your job, making you a good footballer...surely? it doesnt matter if 90% of the time your second touch is a tackle if at the end of the day you've managed to put 20 goals away.

Would you rather  we had Bellamy over Martins?

To me, accoriding to your defininton Bellamy is a better footballer, but could you count on bellamy to sticck 17 goals away and save us from relegation?? I dont think so. I think Martins contribution to last season was more than we would ever of got from bellamy.

How can anyone say someone who scores goals is a poor footballer???

Heskey (arguably) - better footballer...gonna give you 10 goals a season

Bellamy - better footballer...not even goona get into double figures

Johnson...

the list could go on according to your definintion, these are all players who have played in the english league all there lives and still havet made an impact anyway near what martins has, yet you all still manage to think that Martins is a poor footballer....mind boggling. It really is. Gets way too much schtick.

I don't understand why people are laughing at the thought of him being worth 15 million.  You just have to accept todays transfter market is ludacris.

 

22 years old with bags of potential, can use both feet, great in the air and can pull things out of the hat very few other players could.  Also has 13 goals in 18 International matches.

 

I think he's absolutely average tbh.

 

He struggles to control the ball, can't pass it accurately more than 10 yards & can't head it for s***. He can't tackle, fails to bring others into the game and can't hold it up when it's pinged up to him.

 

He is, however, fast as f*** when latching onto a through ball and can shoot very powerfully every now and again.

 

I don't like you.

 

Which bits do you disagree with?

Well i disagree with the fact that you've pointed out these flaws, which you're not too wrong about (although i feel his flaws are majorly highlighted too much so) and with all these apparently obviouls fundamental flaws he's still managed to stick the ball in the back of the net 20 odd times (in his first season in a differnt league), that speaks mountains to me, there are many strikers out there who dont have any obvious weaknesses yet couldnt hit an elephants arse with a frying pan, why is he lambasted so much??

Pompey paid about £7m for Nugent didn't they?

 

Yeah - same level of player.

 

 

 

If Nugent has anywhere near the same impact Martins did last season I will bring my left testicle to you on a silver plate.

Fuck it, you can have my right one as well, make it a pair for ya if Nugent has the same impact Martins did.

Pompey paid about £7m for Nugent didn't they?

 

Yeah - same level of player.

 

 

 

errr...who's gonna be the first to bite??

 

The fact that a player can be hailed as a multi-million pound superstar when he can't even control a football is a criminal enditment of the state of English football. Footballers who are about 17 league levels above what the average fan has ever played should be able to control a ball with either foot, pass to a teammate 5 yards away and hit the target from anywhere in the box with the vast majority of their attempts. Martins fails to do these things alarmingly often.

 

This doesn't apply just to Martins - it certainly applies to Shola and in recent years to a few other so called leading lights we've employed but I'm pig sick of adulation being poured on nothing more than half-decent footballers.

 

If you want to know what a good striker should be like its pretty simple - we have one - Owen.

 

 

Same level as Nugent....huh??? 

Ok, the thing is, is that in the end, he;s stuck the ball away more often than most strikers in the prem, thats what a strikers for correct? I thik people are being sooo short sighted when they look at some of the poor touches he makes, or how he's been absent in some games, for some reason they're outlined more than others, i dont understand how a player who is able to score 17 goals in a team which couldnt spell creativity let alone implent any can be even mentioned in the same breath as Shola "fizzy pop league" Ameobi, or Nugent. Ridiculous statement.

Pompey paid about £7m for Nugent didn't they?

 

Yeah - same level of player.

 

 

errr...who's gonna be the first to bite??

If a Premiership club wants him, £17 million minimum. the price paid for Bent, who is inferior to Martins and has less room for improvement. If a foreign club wants him, then £11-13million. Martins is a player who we could replace easily imo, certainly with someone who is a better football player today (and hence more useful at a time when we're trying to break out of the now flooded mid table group), but is also a player who may go on to haunt us if he does improve.

 

Like who? Who is this imaginaery replacement we see who has the same pedigree as martins at such a young age? Played at International level, played at Champion Leagues level, played in UEFA, played in one of the most defensive leagues in Europe coming out with a decent goalscoring record. Someone who can replicate the 20 odd goals Martins has already scored for this club, all in there first season at a new league? Oh yeah, all for 10m....i'd love to know, anyone fancy obliging?

 

Where did I state that his replacement needs to have the same age or experience as him?

 

Two that I can think of are Anelka and Gudjohnsen, both are considerably better footballers, have played for Big Sam before and are established in the Premiership, would probably leave us a tidy profit from any Martins sale, and are players wed probably have a very good chance of landing given their present situations. Their age isnt ideal for the price tag theyd be in, but thats peanuts compared to the benefits of finishing higher up the table, particularly in the long term.

 

Its impossible for any of us to know how different things might be with one player instead of the other - look at the impact Bellamy for example had with us when he was here, compared to the same team with for example Ameobi in it. I think the general rule that holds in most cases is that a player who's basic game is considerably better and more consistent will enable the team to be far more effective as a unit than a player with more talent but a far worse standard of, and consistency in, his general play. It often boils down to a case of possession - when the team plays it forward to Martins and he loses it every other time, then the team will naturally suffer compared to when they play it forward to Gudjohnsen for example and he maintains possession 90% of the time. More team moves, more possession, etc etc.

 

Were not even talking about a key player at all in Martins, he might turn out to be one in the longer term and he may have been last season due to our utter lack of options and squad depth, but right now hes not in our first team if everyone is fit, and he may not even fit in Big Sam's preferred system for all we know. Ive always had the viewpoint that we could replace any of Ferdinand, Shearer, or Owen if we truly wanted to or needed to, and our recent history shows that weve done that without fail - had we missed out on Owen, wed have landed Torres. Had we sold Shearer at the right time, we could have signed Eto'o, who we were linked with heavily at one point - we only missed out on Shepherd's preferred Shaerer replacement, Rooney, because of ManU spending the following summer's transfer budget to finance the move. Therefore, if we can replace even our very best players, why shouldnt we be able to replace Martins, even more so with Ashley's money and Allardyce's knowledge?

Ok to be fair, i dint mean to pick on your quote like i did, it just sums up alot of what people are thinking and saying yet arent justifying, people keep sayin he isnt worth 10m when he is and i was pointing out the reasons why, you're right in sayin players like Anelka and Gudjohneson are better but i'd still take martins over Anelka for 10m.

If a Premiership club wants him, £17 million minimum. the price paid for Bent, who is inferior to Martins and has less room for improvement. If a foreign club wants him, then £11-13million. Martins is a player who we could replace easily imo, certainly with someone who is a better football player today (and hence more useful at a time when we're trying to break out of the now flooded mid table group), but is also a player who may go on to haunt us if he does improve.

Like who? Who is this imaginaery replacement we see who has the same pedigree as martins at such a young age? Played at International level, played at Champion Leagues level, played in UEFA, played in one of the most defensive leagues in Europe coming out with a decent goalscoring record. Someone who can replicate the 20 odd goals Martins has already scored for this club, all in there first season at a new league? Oh yeah, all for 10m....i'd love to know, anyone fancy obliging?

He's scored 20 goals(?) for us man

 

European pub teams account for 7 or 8 I think.

 

His touch, passing, awareness and "footballing brain" are absolutely terrible. Having said that he has an unpredictable rawness which gets a few which is great but its nothing to build on.

 

Talk of anything anywhere near or above what we paid for him is laughable.

 

 

 

 

 

lol, he has a lot to build on in my opnion, i dont understand how anyone can honestly belive that martins has lost value, are you people all insinuating that he wasnt worth 10m in the first place? If all these teams we play in the UEFA cup are pub teams, how the fuck can anyone place any value on winning the cup?? it boggles the mind some of the crap people come out with.

I mean he made the bigget contribution to the team last year in his first season in a different league at the age of 22, i know that he blows hot and cold alot but i dont place his value on what other people are worth or what individual flaws he has, thats just plain stupid, i place his value in accordance with his value to the team and quite frankly he made the biggest contribution to the team last year.  hence my belief that hes worth 13-14m

if yakubu went to everton for 11m then he's worth more than that, plane and simple

 

i find the whole thing laughable - when you have 2 strikers like owen and viduka then having a striker like martins is perfect...we have the consistent "what you see is what you get" from those two and in martins we've got the unexpected "can conjeur up something amazing" factor

 

perfect conbination...what's the point in bemoaning his finishing?  that's not what he's all about...fair enough people were maybe justified in complaining last year when he was basically our only striker but now we should be focusing on what he CAN do, not what he can't

 

if we get martins using his strengths well and owen/viduka doing the same we'll not be in bad shape

apart from the goal at spurs last season when has martins actually conjeured up something amazing.

 

 

more myth making ?

 

I would say his goals vs Bolton (overhead kick) and City were from balls where many strikers simply wouldn't have scored.

i'll grant you the bolton one but the citeh goal,for all it showed good technique wasn't "amazing" or very special. he's quick,powerful with a canny eye for goal but i feel there is a myth about his "conjeuring" abilities.

He's scored 20 goals(?) for us man, i can think of a at least 3 or 4 goals which relatively speaking were out of nothing, which if ya think about is quite a high ratio, too high a one to say he doesnt have a "conjuring" ability. For me he is a bit special.

Urgh impossible to say, I look at players like Bent, Yakubu and Johnson and see how much they went for and I'd say about £12M for Martins.

Yeh, yakubu sounds like a good shout, always rated him to be fair, though still there are too many for 10m with the same quality as martins. The thing is, is that with yakubu i think you can afely say that you wont get any world class performances, whereas the same definetely cant be said for martins, as inconsistent as he is, i think he's worth every penny and a little bit more then what we paid.