fredbob

I don't think we should push the boat out to sign Zoggy, now that we've got Ben Arfa and Marveaux on board.

 

Even £9m is over the odds for a player of his ability in the last year of his contract.

Do you think £9m is over the odds for a player of his abilty? If you don't think it is an inflated price for his ability then the point about his contract becomes moot.

Would anyone else be worried that if we signed him, Marveaux and HBA we would have 3 too similar players to able to accommodate them into the one formation?

 

Don't see how.

 

Marveaux's best position is on the left.

N'Zogbia's best position is on the right.

Ben Arfa's best position is in the middle.

Where does mataudi fit in?!

Did Wise actually scout any  good youth players? None of them even seem close to making the grade.

The club can't know for sure if Marveaux will be a success or a flop, it's a free gamble, the club will still be unsure if HBA will get back to what he was and the club can't say for sure Ferguson will fulfill his potential, in Jonas we know what we are getting and until someone comes along and proves they have the required class for the prem to be in our starting 11 i see no reason to remove Jonas out of the equation. If we had signed Charlie instead of Marveaux i could see why Jonas would be eased out because we know what Charlie brings to the table.

 

Ok, still not getting the point about him only being able to play in what is looking to be a redundant position.

 

Agree to disagree.   

 

Yes apart from the fact you seem to think Jonas can only play Left Midfield and no other position which is slighly confusing because he is a fairly versatile midfielder in that regards.

Nothing confusing about it, its his most effective role and he's not even directly influential in the role either (very few key passes not too many assists or goals), his value is in the directness of his play, his dribbling opens up space for both Enrique and barton, the opposition CM are drawn into him when he cuts in opening up space for our rw which has allowed barton to influence a lot of games as he has more time and space.

You have to think what's required of the players in the new formations - the front 3 are gonna have to finish and create and the CM are gonna have to maintain and manouever possession as efficiently as possible. Jonas does neither of those things, I just doesn't see a dribbling CM ever being effective, unless they're exceptional of course.

The club can't know for sure if Marveaux will be a success or a flop, it's a free gamble, the club will still be unsure if HBA will get back to what he was and the club can't say for sure Ferguson will fulfill his potential, in Jonas we know what we are getting and until someone comes along and proves they have the required class for the prem to be in our starting 11 i see no reason to remove Jonas out of the equation. If we had signed Charlie instead of Marveaux i could see why Jonas would be eased out because we know what Charlie brings to the table.

Ok, still not getting the point about him only being able to play in what is looking to be a redundant position.

Agree to disagree. 

Yep, in goalkeeping parlance the "shirt is Jonas's to lose". Still no idea how good Marveaux will be, I would introduce him gradually. HBA will need the same treatment as well I guess.

 

In a 442 I agree, but if its a 433 or 4231, which is how's its looking, he doesnt fit quite fit in in my opinion. If its a case of tactical flexibility then he still serves little purpose as you'd hope that we won't be looking adjust our main formation too often and even when we do, the likes of marveuax/ben arfa and Ferguson will all look to do a job that Jonas does. There is no discernible quality other than perhaps work rate that Jonas has over those mentioned players.

 

Unfortunately.

 

Are you seriously putting Ferguson ahead of Jonas...what does Ferguson bring to the table that Jonas doesn't apart from a young age?

 

No, I'm not. I'm saying that he is one of 3 players who can play in Jonas' position. If we already have 3 players who can provisionally play in a role that is increasingly looking like a redundant one then why keep him on those merits alone, Nevermind wage issues.

 

For what its worth I didn't offer my opinion on Ferguson but from what Ive see, I think he has the potential to be as good if not better than Jonas.

 

So Jonas should be moved on the basis of, we have signed Marveaux (a player few of us have seen and has a record of injuries), we have HBA (fantastic reputation around Europe but recovering from a broken leg and not sure how things have turned out) and also Ferguson (handful of hit and miss performances towards the end of the season). These 3 players attribute to why Jonas needs moved on and removed from our first 11...i'm not seeing the logic here...

 

I can't really articulate it any better than the 2nd line in the first paragraph. The point is that we may not know what they can do but the club do. The club, who see these players day in day out will back there own judgement, they won't be sat there thinking, 'hmmm Ben arfa may not be the same player, marveuax may be a flop and Ferguson is only young, we better keep him just in case'

Yep, in goalkeeping parlance the "shirt is Jonas's to lose". Still no idea how good Marveaux will be, I would introduce him gradually. HBA will need the same treatment as well I guess.

 

In a 442 I agree, but if its a 433 or 4231, which is how's its looking, he doesnt fit quite fit in in my opinion. If its a case of tactical flexibility then he still serves little purpose as you'd hope that we won't be looking adjust our main formation too often and even when we do, the likes of marveuax/ben arfa and Ferguson will all look to do a job that Jonas does. There is no discernible quality other than perhaps work rate that Jonas has over those mentioned players.

 

Unfortunately.

 

Are you seriously putting Ferguson ahead of Jonas...what does Ferguson bring to the table that Jonas doesn't apart from a young age?

No, I'm not. I'm saying that he is one of 3 players who can play in Jonas' position. If we already have 3 players who can provisionally play in a role that is increasingly looking like a redundant one then why keep him on those merits alone, Nevermind wage issues.

For what its worth I didn't offer my opinion on Ferguson but from what Ive see, I think he has the potential to be as good if not better than Jonas.

Yep, in goalkeeping parlance the "shirt is Jonas's to lose". Still no idea how good Marveaux will be, I would introduce him gradually. HBA will need the same treatment as well I guess.

In a 442 I agree, but if its a 433 or 4231, which is how's its looking, he doesnt fit quite fit in in my opinion. If its a case of tactical flexibility then he still serves little purpose as you'd hope that we won't be looking adjust our main formation too often and even when we do, the likes of marveuax/ben arfa and Ferguson will all look to do a job that Jonas does. There is no discernible quality other than perhaps work rate that Jonas has over those mentioned players.

Unfortunately.

Absolutely no idea where that first paragraph came from, but I agree to disagree - at this stage anyway. Hopefully he'll prove to be that important to us, though if he is then I see no reason why he'll not be sold when a bid 'too good to turn down' comes in.

 

There's nobody unsellable at the club, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that there's no point getting attached to any player. I just hope Pardew (or whoever is next) is capable of juggling the turnover of playing staff.

 

I see, we're talking about slightly different things here, all my original post was saying that that in my opinion out the whole squad only those 3 were unsellable, or rather should be unsellable.

 

For what its worth, I actually agree that everyone is sellable as things stand at this club.

 

As things have always stood at this club.

And at every club bar real Madrid and Barcelona.

Absolutely no idea where that first paragraph came from, but I agree to disagree - at this stage anyway. Hopefully he'll prove to be that important to us, though if he is then I see no reason why he'll not be sold when a bid 'too good to turn down' comes in.

 

There's nobody unsellable at the club, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that there's no point getting attached to any player. I just hope Pardew (or whoever is next) is capable of juggling the turnover of playing staff.

I see, we're talking about slightly different things here, all my original post was saying that that in my opinion out the whole squad only those 3 were unsellable, or rather should be unsellable.

For what its worth, I actually agree that everyone is sellable as things stand at this club.

Absolutely no idea where that first paragraph came from, but I agree to disagree - at this stage anyway.

Fair enough, im sure its pretty prevalent in the early stages of this thread, ie the whole idea of him coming here is nonsense (usual cyniscm), either way, if he's too good to come here then he's too good to sell.

I'm not digging up posts, because point scoring is for pricks, besides I have a post saying I wouldn't mind seeing Jonas as rb, there'd be no coming back from that death blow.

Ben Arfa is quite clearly our best player. Selling him would both deflate the fans and hurt the team.

 

On the basis of natural talent it appears so, yes. But it's still just four appearances, and we still don't know if he'll ever be the same player. That's why he only cost us £5.75m. Bonkers to put him that high up if you ask me.

 

Before some mug comes along and says I think we should sell him then I absolutely do not, but I can't see much reason to class him as unsellable at this point in time.

Come on Dave, make up your mind, he's either far too good for us and will never sign in a million years (repeat ad nauseum) or he's a sellable asset because we'be only see him play for us 4 times (forgetting the fact he's played over 130 times in his career, some at the very highest level).

Genuine talent is a rare commodity at this club, Ben arfa is arguably one of the most gifted players in the premiership, it wouldn't even be an exaggeration to say in Europe as well, on that potential alone it makes him unsellable.

Jonas can play right wing and when he does he's often not as direct, but his final ball improves. He's not exclusively a one position only player at all imo.

All true I suppose but will we be playing with wingers next season? I personally don't think we will. I'd love for him to be here as a 25 minute impact sub but we're not at the stage yet where we can afford first team wages sitting on the bench.

Been alluded to earlier but a player who really can only play one role in the front 6 whilst on first team wages is a luxury we can do without. I don't necessarily agree with him being shipped out because I love Jonas but with marveaux/Ben arfa and Ferguson all able to play his role as well as others he's unfortunately expendable.

There are only 3 unsellable in my opinion, Ben arfa, tiote and Colo. Having said that with colo wages I can envisage a situation where he can be sold. Unfortunately.

N'zog, Gamiero and Gervihno in must surely mean Barton, Jonas a couple others out. I'm almost certain Jonas is going because I dont believe he'll fit into whatever type of system pardew is trying to create. Can see nolan going as well without a replacement on a purley wage slimming exercise.

 

Obviously massive assumption here, we're definitely getting a striker, gervihno seems to be a goer and idont buy into the explanation that nzog is a back up for gervhino. Makes no sense to bid for now  unless its a season ticket selling ploy.

In the know.

I'm that guy.

Didn't he play left back before he was dropped?

You watched the world cup games where he was played there?

 

I did, yes and like I say I know its open to criticism because of staggering number of good reasons but I just have this inkling that he might be decent. He just has certain qualities which makes me think he could do a job. Glen Johnson is genuinely one of the worse defensive fullbacks I've seen for a long time, but he's also one of the better attacking full backs, I think going forward from a deep position with all the space full backs are afforded, Jonas could become a major asset for us.

 

As I say, inane curiosity.

 

Ok, I can't see it myself and did wonder if you might have missed an 'S' out of the word inane.  

 

Offensively he'd be fine, but defensively he'd be worse than Glen Johnson. (caveat IMO)

Come out of this better than I thought I would to be honest. Offensive I actually think he'd be great but his grit and determination makes me believe that hed be a difficult defender to beat.

Besides he can be taught defensive work.

I'll go back into my hole now.

You watched the world cup games where he was played there?

I did, yes and like I say I know its open to criticism because of staggering number of good reasons but I just have this inkling that he might be decent. He just has certain qualities which makes me think he could do a job. Glen Johnson is genuinely one of the worse defensive fullbacks I've seen for a long time, but he's also one of the better attacking full backs, I think going forward from a deep position with all the space full backs are afforded, Jonas could become a major asset for us.

As I say, inane curiosity.

I'd love to see Jonas at rb, if glen Johnson can play for England on the basis of his attacking prowess then why can't jonas?!

I know this will get slated (and perhaps rightly so) but its just an inane curiosity I have.

He is 31 in january. Too Old. I'm sure we have no interest in this player.

 

He's a bit like Viduka though, it's not about his pace. It's his incredible first touch and vision. I can see him still influencing games and scoring for another few years at least. Would be worth it if around £10m. We still would need to get another striker though.

Agree with this, although I'm an a fan of the transfer policy, I'd happily make an exception for berbatov. Fantastic player who would really benefit from being the main man. He doesn't rely on any physical attribute so could easily play at the highest level for another 4/5 years.

I'm gonna go out on a limb though and say hes slightly out our league though, although that won't stop me salvating at the thought of having, Ben arfa, zog and marveuax all playing off berbatov.

He's as good in his position as Enrique is in his. We'll never be able to attract a player of equal quality, no matter what money we get for him.

 

It's going to be a messy situation this time next year.

yes we could. the thing with defenders is they don't make headlines like forwards do so good players often go unheard of. not many had heard of vidic before he signed for man utd but he's been very good and no doubt there are many more out there. bassong in his time here wasn't too far fromn where colo is and he was totally unheard of when he arrived.

 

 

the problem is it's always a risk....but not impossible.

Ball playing centre halves are a rarer breed. Id say good ones are hard to find but good ones who can fit into the pace of the English game are even harder to find.

I agree with your general point, but I think Colo is one of the exceptional unsellable players.

Having said that I think johnny Evans would be worth a look, hasn't been great recently but I think he has good potential.

It's been a fascinating transfer window so far. Some fairly random thoughts...

 

1. We've obviously thought everything through pretty carefully in advance. That's good to see. The early bird catches the Bosmans.

 

2. We've become pretty hardball on negotiations with the older players whose contracts are running down. It's clear that we presented deals to Nolan and Barton and that was it: If you want to stay with us here are the terms, take it, or run out your contract, or leave on a transfer. We're not actually negotiating. This may change once the old high-earners have all moved on.

 

3. Enrique an exception because his best years are still ahead of him. In this instance it's the player who's not negotiating. The Enrique situation also puts the lie to the idea that we're looking to move on all of our best players. We clearly want to keep him, but he thinks he can do better.

 

4. No one is sacred and every player has their price. It's certainly the Tottenham model (Carrick, Berbatov) to accept bids for players if they exceed valuation (Carroll, possibly Nolan could be looked at like this, and certainly Best if we can get £4 million for him).

 

5. Notion that we're replacing too much experience with PL-untested players is a reasonable worry.

 

6. The club's aim is to pull off the difficult trick of improving the team/squad while reducing the wage bill, and this is the context in which it all has to be understood. Sure, there are risks involved. It's a tight-rope act. But I think we're looking reasonably steady up there.

Good post. My 2 major concerns so far would be 5 and 2, 2 especially as I think there's a big value in keeping senior players and economically speaking good older players usually have earned decent contracts. It brings up a bit of a paradox in the sense that we cant/won't offer good senior players who's experience are priceless the kind of contracts they're experience and ability warrants.

Not sure if any of that makes sense!!

Aye, can see it going empty again for another season. If it is Tiote's favourite number though (not sure on this, or whether he just got given it at random for Ivory Coast in the WC), then I'd honestly just let him have it. Blasphemy, I know, but all the other emotion/tradition appears to be disliked by those at the top, can't see why the #9 should be any different.

 

I'm not sure I agree, football is far too 'plastic' nowadays, its lost touch with reality, with the fans and turned into a slick business operation where the only thing that's important is the money. I think its important to keep some form of connection with tradition and sentiments in order to preserve some level of soul in the game.

 

It's little things like having ironic numbers which preserves the affinity that fans have with their club, it would be a travesty to throw away that tradition for the sake of 'rationality'.

 

 

Exactly, I love the shirt, I'm a massive fan of it and it is definitely "special" in the way that the "7" is at Man Utd, etc.

 

I'd argue with anybody that the 9 here is as iconic as any other number in English football.

 

However, all I'm saying is that those who make the decisions seem keen to remove all traces of this sort of stuff from the club, which is a massive shame. It doesn't currently look like we'll be bringing anybody in with the stones to wear it this season at least, so I can see it going empty again unless they do go down that road and give it to a non-striker.

My personal opinion is that the club do value the number 9, I'm sure remember pardew talking about it. The strange thing is that despite it being our weakest area we haven't been linked with too many strikers which strangely gives me hope that there's something to come.

Three 'unsellables' - Tiote, Colo and Ben arfa, Id add Enrique to that list but our hands are tied somewhat with him. Genuine quality ball playing centre halves are at a premium, his hair alone is worth his transfer fee and wages so far.

Think we'll sell him next year for what its worth.

Aye, can see it going empty again for another season. If it is Tiote's favourite number though (not sure on this, or whether he just got given it at random for Ivory Coast in the WC), then I'd honestly just let him have it. Blasphemy, I know, but all the other emotion/tradition appears to be disliked by those at the top, can't see why the #9 should be any different.

I'm not sure I agree, football is far too 'plastic' nowadays, its lost touch with reality, with the fans and turned into a slick business operation where the only thing that's important is the money. I think its important to keep some form of connection with tradition and sentiments in order to preserve some level of soul in the game.

It's little things like having ironic numbers which preserves the affinity that fans have with their club, it would be a travesty to throw away that tradition for the sake of 'rationality'.