TheBrownBottle

We need a Frimpong thread

Just checked Ray Kennedy: three European Cups, two Fairs / UEFA Cups, six league titles, one FA Cup, one league cup. Not bad

Yeah, definitely in terms of winning everything. Jack won pretty much everything at Leeds, but not the European Cup of course. In terms of numbers, Paully made a good shout re Carrick. It has got me thinking now - which NE player is the most successful (club football only)? In terms of rules, League Cup wins for tie breaks, and no counting Charity / Community Shields (I’m not Jose Mourinho). In thinking about it, I reckon it’s probably Ray Kennedy (rather than Alan).

Yep - it’s worth most people thinking about how long it took for the players to improve under Howe initially - it took about three months for Howe’s training to really kick in fitness-wise

Funny thing is that it’s literally not true. I would have thought that would be someone like Alan Kennedy - who of course played for both clubs (and a Mackem by birth). Scored the winning goal in two European Cup finals (albeit one in a shootout) - not bad for a left back.

It is, but where have the been for the last 80 years? Average with no ambition is an achievement over there. Three top half finishes in my dad’s lifetime, and he retires next July.

Their healing begins

Yeah, fair enough mate - makes sense

Yeah, all good points well made. I actually thought ASM was clearly working to change his game - there were times when you could see he was trying to play ‘Howe-ball’. But it was also clear that it wasn’t a natural fit. As others have said, he’s a bit of a throwback player - the type who PFM types used to talk about ‘carrying’. The game has changed and in some ways left behind old-school wing wizards. Output and metrics are the order of the day - so it does kill off a bit of the romance that these players imbue. That said, I do also think that ASM is a player better suited to lesser sides - such as Bruce’s NUFC. He was at NUFC for a reason, and wasn’t courted by top clubs for a reason. I saw one of the Chronicle hacks blathering on about asking Staveley two years ago about whether they’d be building a side around ASM, as if that was a good question at all (it wasn’t Staveley’s call, for a start). Good / great sides aren’t built around one skilful dribbler. Some of the thinking around ASM has me a bit perplexed tbh. Regardless, I fully agree with your final sentence.

I’m afraid I was always a fully fledged member of the Laurent Robert fan club - I like my tricky wingers to also have output - many of the criticisms applied to ASM also apply to Ginola (though I also think Ginola was a better technical footballer than ASM). I think Barnes makes far more sense in an Eddie Howe team - having Bruno, Willock, Big Joe and Tonali means he’s going to have ample midfielders to feed him those little one-twos he thrives off. I suspect ASM likely would still be off irrespective of FFP - I just don’t think the management rate him, or perhaps it’s more fair to say he doesn’t fit with what they’re looking to do. I think many of the negative reactions (certainly including mine) come from the desire to want to see Howe put together the team in his own image.

I remember reading Johan Cruyff saying that he could identify a great technical player through the sound his boot made when striking the ball. Ginola was one of those players - he stroked the ball even when shooting. He could beat a man, but never seemed in a hurry to do so.

Context is important. Ginola for that first six months was absolutely unplayable - and that’s why Barcelona tried to sign him from us. He was kicked off the park at Highbury in the League Cup and never returned to form in 95/96. The year after, he looked like he was back - until Dalglish arrived. And that was that. Ginola, for most, represented a standard we just weren’t used to seeing. Three years before he signed we were nearly relegated to the third division - and had ‘enjoyed’ years of footballing mediocrity which make the Ashley years look halcyon. If Ginola was 25 again and signed today his impact wouldn’t be anything like the same as it was in ‘95.

Players like ASM are very useful for lower half table sides, as a team set up to counter loves having an ASM. Watching him run at a panicking, back-pedalling defence was always great fun. He can ‘dance’, and those players are always fun to watch. But he isn’t a top level player, and now we are a very good side and as teams sit off us, his usefulness diminishes. And then frustration kicks in, as he sets off on runs from the middle of the pitch into a bank of eight defenders. The player he reminds me most of when he does that is Ketsbaia - ASM is a more talented dribbler, but the outcome was usually the same. I do think that sometimes the idea of ASM outweighs the actuality.

Got you Compilation videos of player seems an odd one for N-O to want to take down, but it isn’t my rulebook I suppose

No, you should take it down immediately (I’m joking!)

Yeah, I just watched that earlier. Cleary is the best of the NUFC YouTube pundits for me

Honestly, I’m ok with that. I’m just not keen on it being seen as some sort of cosmic injustice. Nowt wrong with not wanting to see ASM leave because you enjoy watching him play.

There is liking a player, there is not wanting him to leave, and then there is suggesting that there is an injustice to him not fulfilling his destiny of playing CL football for NUFC. First two make perfect sense to me - the latter, not a bit of it. He’s not being dragged from the club kicking and screaming after having the thing he’d worked so hard to achieve snatched away from him. He’s off to earn stupendous money in a league where his output won’t be criticised. Sounds like a dream ticket to me.

And you don’t have to reply to me if my comments irritate you either. For someone who complained about gatekeeping this looks an awful lot like gatekeeping. ‘Don’t comment if I don’t agree’.

God, I hate logic

It’s not a dig only at the poster - it’s the volume of this guff. Do you see the man in my avatar? He is the best player I’ve ever seen in a B&W shirt, and most of my vintage would likely say the same. But I’ve never heard anyone get sad about the fact that Peter Beardsley left the same season we qualified for the CL the first time. ASM had little role in us qualifying for the CL. Some heed-shaking needs to take place. It’s not quite the same as rocking up to a random funeral and saying ‘who’s the cunt in the coffin, then?’

I’m not gatekeeping - I’m also expressing an opinion. And that opinion is that some of the stuff I’ve seen around ASM’s departure is just odd to me. This isn’t a player who scored in every round of the cup being dropped for the final - it’s a player who scored one goal last season having his apparent destiny snatched away. Fucking hell man, ASM isn’t even close to the best NUFC players I’ve seen who didn’t play CL football.

I have to say I’m not seeing the sadness like. He played intermittently well for us - and was hardly a key part in NUFC qualifying last season. He had two years under Bruce where he was a relief to the mediocrity and boredom - he’s hardly a long term servant of the club. This isn’t Rob Lee leaving after nearly a decade with us on the cusp of being good again.

I know I’m getting old because I all of these transfer fees just seem utterly mental to me. And all modern music sounds the same. Cracking player though - every time I’ve seen him he looked excellent. I’d assumed he’d join a Sky six side when I’ve seen him - but we’re in that group now