Is Sam the Man?

[Guest SLK]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing s**** football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

 

I don't always agree with you NE5, but on this occasion, we are(almost) as one..!

Whilst I disagree that we didn't need new defenders - Bramble for one was clearly not good enough consistently - I agree totally with your analysis of the style of play.

People may remember that one of the things I have constantly been complaining about over the season is the number of times we give the ball away, inviting pressure back on our defence as you say, and the lack of movement from players off the ball ; there have been at least 2 occasions where this has been disastrous, once at Man City where Taylor was hurried into an error by being given the ball in an unnecessarily-tight situation, and again at SJP against Pompey where we lost possession in midfield after a bad pass and Cacapa was placed in a one-against-one which resulted in the second goal against..

There was also a similar incident caused by a hurried pass from Faye which led to the Mackems' goal.

 

The point is that the players are not confident with passing/possession football - either that, or they are not practicing this in training because the coaching staff either don't promote it or are told NOT to promote it.....

Keeping possession is not easy  - it requires effort, skill on the ball, good movement off it(players have to be fit in order to be able to keep it going for 90 mins) - and most of all - PRACTICE.

Long-Ball football IS lazy in comparison ; it means abdicating responsibility by just whacking the ball upfield

even if there is time to find a colleague in space ; it is also 'percentage' football in that you have in most cases, no better than a 50% chance of your team-mate receiving the pass, and in the case of our current side(Owen & Martins being prime examples)the forwards have LESS than a 50% chance of controlling such a ball.

Long-ball football is also bad to watch, which is why so many fans are complaining about what they see...

 

I am not saying that there is not a place in the game for whacking the ball away - clearly, in very tight situations in defence, there is - but to play it all the time will not result in success over a long period.

 

Nobody on this board can tell us of a side who have consistently won trophies playing this way - Wimbledon managed it against Liverpool in the FA Cup, and then vanished into obscurity ; Greece did something similar in the Euro Champs in 2004, then failed to qualify for the WC in 06.

 

Most tellingly, Bolton have won NOWT playing that way and only qualified for the UEFA Cup twice...

 

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

You need VARIETY of style to compete with whatever strengths the opposition have, and sometimes you have to compromise - but in the main, surrendering possession is NOT going to bring success.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

 

To me it's glaringly obvious. Round, Pearson AND Allardyce are all defensive coaches. There is no balance in the coaching. Two of thme are former CD's ffs!

I think that is a very good point...And knowing the style of English traditional defenders (hoof the ball away and hope someone else from your team gets the ball up field)...

[danswan]

I can't answer 'yes' to this question, and I am surprised so many can. Based on the evidence we have seen so far, and his track record at Bolton, what is it that is giving everyone so much confidence that Sam wouldn't spunk £50 Million on average players in much the same way Souness did? I was all for Allardyces appointment, based on what it looked like we were trying to achieve at that time. There's no doubt he will stabilise things and make us hard to beat etc etc but to me this will result in us occupying much the same league position as us and Bolton have for the last few years. As a few people have said, I don't think this style of football can glean consistent success. Steady, safe league positions, maybe the odd cup success but we should be aiming higher than Bolton

 

I really hope I am wrong, but I voted 'no'. Allardyce talks a good game but his real test will be if he gets significant funds to play with. It could prove to be a costly gamble.

 

Reading this back, it sounds pretty anti-Allardyce, actually I'm not and also think he needs time. I just can't say he is the man to spend the wedge and I can't see how anyone else can think he is, bearing in mind he has never done it before.

[Parky]

I can't answer 'yes' to this question, and I am surprised so many can. Based on the evidence we have seen so far, and his track record at Bolton, what is it that is giving everyone so much confidence that Sam wouldn't spunk £50 Million on average players in much the same way Souness did? I was all for Allardyces appointment, based on what it looked like we were trying to achieve at that time. There's no doubt he will stabilise things and make us hard to beat etc etc but to me this will result in us occupying much the same league position as us and Bolton have for the last few years. As a few people have said, I don't think this style of football can glean consistent success. Steady, safe league positions, maybe the odd cup success but we should be aiming higher than Bolton

 

I really hope I am wrong, but I voted 'no'. Allardyce talks a good game but his real test will be if he gets significant funds to play with. It could prove to be a costly gamble.

 

Reading this back, it sounds pretty anti-Allardyce, actually I'm not and also think he needs time. I just can't say he is the man to spend the wedge and I can't see how anyone else can think he is, bearing in mind he has never done it before.

 

 

We need to look abroad?

[danswan]

If you mean abroad for a manager, I think we need to stick with this one for at least this season anyway. I would be delighted with one of these foreign supercoaches who can produce 17 year old superstars for peanuts (Wenger) or pluck relative unknowns from abroad using their finely honed network of scouts and contacts (Sven).

 

Unfortunately we would probably end up with Christian Gross. Or Bertie Vogts, Alain Perrin, or some other Frank Spenceralike.

[ChezGiven]

"Oooh Bertie"

[Parky]

If you mean abroad for a manager, I think we need to stick with this one for at least this season anyway. I would be delighted with one of these foreign supercoaches who can produce 17 year old superstars for peanuts (Wenger) or pluck relative unknowns from abroad using their finely honed network of scouts and contacts (Sven).

 

Unfortunately we would probably end up with Christian Gross. Or Bertie Vogts, Alain Perrin, or some other Frank Spenceralike.

 

Of course foreign managers have the added advantage of a Euro knowledge base and contacts that can identify young talent.

[Guest Sniffer]

Why would you assume that, say, a spanish manager has a greater knowledge of talent in another country than a British manager? Does a german have more insight than a italian? Or a frenchman know more than a dutchman?

[danswan]

If you mean abroad for a manager, I think we need to stick with this one for at least this season anyway. I would be delighted with one of these foreign supercoaches who can produce 17 year old superstars for peanuts (Wenger) or pluck relative unknowns from abroad using their finely honed network of scouts and contacts (Sven).

 

Unfortunately we would probably end up with Christian Gross. Or Bertie Vogts, Alain Perrin, or some other Frank Spenceralike.

 

Of course foreign managers have the added advantage of a Euro knowledge base and contacts that can identify young talent.

 

Unless they are shit?

[Parky]

Why would you assume that, say, a spanish manager has a greater knowledge of talent in another country than a British manager? Does a german have more insight than a italian? Or a frenchman know more than a dutchman?

 

Eh?

 

 

 

I just meant managers who have worked in Europe who are European (speak 2/3 languages) and have worked at European clubs might have better contacts and knowledge of the European scene than most British managers (not all).

[Guest Sniffer]

I thought I lived in Europe. Along with British managers. Because I only speak English means that I'm not a European?

 

So if you only speak English and not 2/3 other languages, you have no knowledge of players in other countries?

[Parky]

I thought I lived in Europe. Along with British managers. Because I only speak English means that I'm not a European?

 

So if you only speak English and not 2/3 other languages, you have no knowledge of players in other countries?

 

You're being silly now.

 

England isn't really in Europe is it Sniffs? It's an island remember. Thatcher's island. 

 

If said British manager had worked at Euro clubs then you'd have a point.

 

How many current British managers managing in the PL have worked at Euro clubs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

....yes well... :giggle:

 

 

[Dave]

Purposely looking abroad (or equally at home) for management is folly, the kind of reactionary nonsense that Shepherd used to fall for.

 

If we change, the nationality etc of the manager is completely irrelevant IMO. If he's the best available he can be a fucking gerbil for all I care.

[Parky]

Purposely looking abroad (or equally at home) for management is folly, the kind of reactionary nonsense that Shepherd used to fall for.

 

If we change, the nationality etc of the manager is completely irrelevant IMO. If he's the best available he can be a fucking gerbil for all I care.

 

 

 

 

[Tooj]

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7696/roedentdl4.jpg

 

[Parky]

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7696/roedentdl4.jpg

 

 

 

Yeah we've had the gerbil/rodent Dave.

[ChezGiven]

I had high hopes for this thread.

[Dave]

I had high hopes for this thread.

 

Sorry.

[Guest Sniffer]

I wonder if Alex Ferguson recognises that his inability to speak more than one language is the reason behind manure's lack of success.

 

That, and his not being a European, of course.

[Parky]

I wonder if Alex Ferguson recognises that his inability to speak more than one language is the reason behind manure's lack of success.

 

That, and his not being a European, of course.

 

I wonder if Queiroz had any affect on their changes of fortune in Europe. 

[Tooj]

I wonder if Alex Ferguson recognises that his inability to speak more than one language is the reason behind manure's lack of success.

 

That, and his not being a European, of course.

 

I wonder if Queiroz had any affect on their changes of fortune in Europe. 

 

What changes of fortune is that then? Their appauling away record perhaps?

[Dave]

I wonder if Alex Ferguson recognises that his inability to speak more than one language is the reason behind manure's lack of success.

 

That, and his not being a European, of course.

 

I wonder if Queiroz had any affect on their changes of fortune in Europe. 

 

Hasn't had much luck in five years.

[Parky]

I wonder if Alex Ferguson recognises that his inability to speak more than one language is the reason behind manure's lack of success.

 

That, and his not being a European, of course.

 

I wonder if Queiroz had any affect on their changes of fortune in Europe. 

 

What changes of fortune is that then? Their appauling away record perhaps?

 

There are no guarantees in football but from what I know he was initially bought in to help on the tactical side especailly for Euro games. 

[Guest Knightrider]

Yes, nothing has changed. We are a poor to average team on the pitch who have for the past 5 or so years been on a rapid slide while off it we lag behind clubs like Middlesbrough regarding infrastructure, meaning there is a lot of work to be done just to get us going again never mind competing. We've fallen so far behind clubs like Everton and Portsmouth they can now be considered good templates to follow.

 

Big Sam is paying for years of neglect and complete mismanagement from top to bottom at the moment and he's very unfortunate I feel to be at a club whose fans' patience and faith has been all spent up supporting the previous regimes at boardroom, dugout and pitch level which makes what is already an almost impossible job that much tougher.

 

Remember just what kind of "team" he inherited on the pitch:

 

Poor depth http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Demotivated http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Split dressing room http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Poor discipline http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Poor fitness levels both mentally and physically http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Unhappy "stars" wanting away, he managed to keep hold of the most important one (N'Zogbia) http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Tactically inept http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Shapeless http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Leadershipless http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Lacking quality throughout http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Inexperienced http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Badly coached for 4 or so years http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Other manager's players http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

 

While off the pitch he inherited:

 

New owners and with it a whole new strategy, transfer budget and plan of action http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

A backroom team lacking depth, quality and experience (Terry Mac and Lee Clark says it all) http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

2 main scouts http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

A failing academy http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

Other manager's appointments http://www.crewclothing.co.uk/PUBLIC/Images/icons/icon_tick.gif

 

In short a very damaged club with many holes needing repaired, some all at once. A club that had finished 14th, 13th, 7th and 13th - its worst run of form since becoming a Premiership club. A club over £80m in debt with a spine of players in Given, Taylor (21 years old), Parker (unhappy and wanting out) and Owen (a perma-crock since joining and not fully committed) to build a team around.

 

All this with the stench of 80 years without a title, 52 without a domestic cup and 38 without any kind of trophy hanging over the club, a festering stench jostling for position with the kind of atmosphere 53,000 very demanding fans just about spent up can fill the air with just by breathing. A club who are no longer alone outside of the top four in the money stakes (Villa, Pompey, the mackems, City et al all flush with cash). A club who the better players avoided or would only join to boost their bank balance or career advancement opportunities, when we weren't blitzing the competition by dangling crazy money to selling clubs (Owen).

 

A club who has pitifully averaged just 3 away wins on the road in each of the last 4 seasons with a culture of capitulating even when in healthy leading positions (Alkmaar?) and being easy to beat regardless of who the opposition was. A club whose once formidable fortress was a rich picking ground for anyone and everyone (Fulham, Sheff Utd et al?).

 

The question shouldn't be Is Sam The Man but WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?

 

To expect good football from a team largely made up of average footballers or players who for years have been tactically repressed and badly coached after just 12 games from a manager not too sure what his best team is or who he even wants to keep never mind being able to bring in the number of players he'd like and the quality he'd like, is expecting TOO MUCH.

 

To expect a team cobbled together (new defence, an almost new midfield, and a strikeforce who before the season hadn't played together) to be consistent after just 12 games, is expecting TOO MUCH.

 

To expect a poor to average unbalanced team lacking in quality throughout to be in the top 6 or top 4 after 12 games, is expecting TOO MUCH.

 

And talking about Sam Allardyce's future is TOO MUCH.

 

We will probably never ever find a manager as ideal as he is to match and fit the job criteria which let me remind everyone is to completely overhaul Newcastle United, arrest a dangerous slide and eventually to get us competing and with it hopefully succeeding.

 

No manager can do all that and then sum in 12 games regardless of who he is or his level of ability. You could replace Sam Allardyce with Jose Mourinho and those problems that are causing the new man so many headaches and proving touch obstacles, will still exist. Only they'd be heightened due to the expectation levels and because a new manager will want money and lots of it, will want to build his own team, hire his own staff and will err, need 2-3 years.

 

And Sam, who IS our new manager, needs the very same things.

 

Let us not forget that in Allardyce we have a manager with an impeccable record carrying out the tasks our club demands successfully and incredibly on a budget that Alan Shearer's testimonial proceeds dwarfed. He transformed Bolton - a yo-yo club who once regarded finishing 17th as success - into an outfit with a Champions League set-up off the pitch and a team who on it were, up until 6 weeks to go of season 2006-07, just 4 points off 4th place, despite having a very poor start to 07. So a Champions League set up off the pitch and a few points dropped here and there away from a Champions League setup on the pitch.

 

Can Sam take us to the next level? A question often thrown at him.

 

Next level as in the top 6, a position we haven't even been close to since Sir Bobby's time 4 years ago?

 

Your answer: Since when we last finished in the top 6 to now, Bolton finished there twice and having qualified for Europe for the first time under Sam were hoping to go one further and mount a a bid to finish in the top 4, that was until he swapped one successful club for an unsuccessful one of course. He and Bolton have had far more success in the past 4 years than we have so in many ways he took a step down when he joined Newcastle, a big club in name or rather attendance figures with big club names and big club money but lets not kid ourselves, we are an average club who all the big name managers wanted to manage, we ended up with Souness and Roeder. We were very lucky such an experienced and skilled manager wanted to join this train wreck of a football club because no fucker else wanted to.

 

And now that he's here, what are we talking about? His future. 12 games in. Incredible.

 

Never has a Newcastle United manager since we become a Premiership club been faced with as many problems, as little cash and so much doom and gloom on the stands. Even Souness had an easier ride in his opening 12 games and his appointment was universally met with anger, disgust and downright disappointment. He inherited a team that had finished 4th, 3rd and 5th with players like Robert, Bellamy, Speed and Shearer to pick from. Yet Big Sam is twice the manager and of all the manager's we could have possibly attracted at the time, was the bona-fida right man for the job.

 

12 games in and nothing has changed. He is still the right man for the job and those who are using 12 games as some kind of crystal ball need to swap it for a mirror ball and give their heads a shake.

 

Just because we have a new owner who happens to be very rich shouldn't detract from reality here.

 

Before we learn to run we need to learn how to walk first. One step at a time.

 

Step one has been addressed; squad depth. Every other on-field issue is being worked on as a write while bringing in quality demands transfer windows and lots of money (£11m Net doesn't buy you quality, just one Alan Smith and a Joey Barton, the latter coming from the Mancunian version of Newcastle while the former couldn't get into the Champions side - what was that about the better players not wanting to join average teams if they had any say in the matter?)

 

Off the pitch plans are already afoot to get the academy up to scratch (I'm hearing some great things) while the back-room team is slowly being put into place.

 

On the pitch in the league we are 6 points off 6th place, that very position we harbour to make our own, despite all these issues covered above and some very poor performances.

 

We are actually ahead of schedule or certainly up because this time last year we had all these problems that still affect us today but we had Shepherd and his sheep Roeder leading the charge.

 

In the last 6 months we have made massive strides that while not all detectable to the naked eye, WILL prove vital to the cause especially in the long run.

 

What the manager now needs is some money to spend, and good money, and at least a full season.

 

Only then can we really tell and be in a much better position to judge.

 

He needs your patience, your support and your faith and as our manager he at least deserves that.

 

Or you can continue to make his job that much harder, up to you.

 

Remember our part of the deal. Want a successful club? Support the efforts then.

 

If we all went to the match in a tip top frame of mind and got behind the team and manager, singing his name even, we'd create a positive vibe around the club for others to feed on and they will.

 

12 games.... 

[Tooj]

Seriously man? Ticky boxes? Wtf?

[Dave]

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6251/beconcisegb5.jpg